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Offline Rafiqqq

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Biblical verses that allude to Jesus (pbuh) being God
« on: October 16, 2016, 04:07:40 PM »
Peace to all,

In my Facebook discussion with an old school friend, the below discussion ensued, and I thought I'd share to hear divergent thoughts from the contributors to the forum.

START

MY POST
 (Chapter 06: Livestock) Verse: 19 "Say, 'WHAT THING IS MORE SOLEMN IN TESTIMONY?' Say, 'GOD IS WITNESS BETWEEN YOU AND ME. THIS QURAN WAS REVEALED TO ME, THAT I MAY WARN YOU WITH IT, AND WHOMEVER IT MAY REACH. Do you indeed testify that there are other gods with God?' Say, 'I myself do not testify.' Say, 'He is but One God, and I am innocent of your idolatry.'"

MY FRIEND' SUBMISSION ON THE POST
If someone says that there is only one God, but that God can manifest himself in different ways, would that be considered idolatry in Islam? I have read several chapters of the English translation of the Quran, and the few times that I have come across statements that appeared to be deviations from what the bible teaches, I have not been 100% percent sure whether they were material deviations or if they only appeared that way due to an incomplete understanding of the author's intent. For example, Sura 9:31 says "31They take their rabbis and their monks as lords beside God, as well as Christ, the son of Mary. But they were commanded to serve only one God: there is no god but Him; He is far above whatever they set up as His partners!" When I first read this, I thought, well, the majority of Christians I know do not consider Christ as a Lord beside God nor do they consider God as the third person of three gods. That would be idolatry. There is only one God. However, I believe that he is able to manifest himself in different ways, namely as the Father, Son, or the Holy Spirit. Am I missing something?

MY RESPONSE
Peace be upon u senior (lol) Bernard, it’s been so long. Hope all’s well with u n d family. Before I proceed, I wud like to state that all Islamic scripture-related opinions expressed below, uses the Quran EXCLISIVELY as the basis. To answer ur question, NO! if someone says there is one God but that God can manifests Himself in different ways, it would not IMHO be considered idolatry from a Quranic POV. Additionally it would be implausible to limit a sovereign God in the ways He can or choses to manifest Himself. Arguably God manifests Himself through His prophets (pbut) by the words/messages He inspires to them. However the claim of God in d Quran is that the concept of the trinity is alien to what He revealed to the prophet Jesus Christ (pbuh) and that the people to whom He sent Jesus (pbuh) have deified Jesus (pbuh) to d same/a similar pedestal as God. This claim is verifiable from the Bible; And while some Biblical theologians assert that d verses that contradict trinity r mostly in d old testament, the new testament is replete with verses where Jesus (pbuh) informs Israel to worship one God n associate nothing with Him, just like d prophets of old (whose works Jesus-pbuh was sent to fulfill); what remains curious is that, despite the overwhelming evidence in d Bible (revealed word) which supports d worship of one God, the fixation remains on a doctrine (Trinity) which is not explicitly taught by the Bible. In much d same way as many Muslims have substituted God’s word the Quran for other sources (the hadith & Sunnah) that contradict the Quran in many cases, often leading to practices, thoughts n actions that go against the explicit word of God, I believe that many Christians have also substituted what was revealed in support of theological standpoints, n this in my opinion is what God refers to in 9:31 when he makes reference to his servant (Jesus-pbuh) being taken as a God besides Himself (note here that contrary to popular belief, Islam does not claim exclusivity, but continuity-as in d same God who sent d prophets of old is d same God who sent d prophet Mohammed-pbuh). And in contrast to ur claim above, it is actually d case that Jesus (pbuh) is considered as more than just a manifestation of the Godhead among a large section on Christians.

To address the issue about what constitutes idolatry in Islam, in the Quran, idolatry is given a much broader definition than is oft appreciated in popular Muslim thought, and not just restricted to worshiping statues or simply attributing others to God Almighty. Some examples r; one’s ego n desire as idols-25:43; intercessors as idols-10:18; worship of dead saints and prophets as idols-16:20-21/18:102/17:56-57; taking jinns as idols-06:100; property, goods and assets as idols-18:34/18:042/18:43-44; taking sources other than what was revealed as idols-06:19/68:36-38; taking religious leaders and revered personalities as idols-09:031. From the above it is not hard to deduce that God indeed frowns on any associations whatsoever with Him. Associating partners with God, be it from Christians, Muslims, Jews etc. is condemned by God in the Quran and the scriptures that preceded it including the Bible. (the above presentation was borrowed form an article on the subject: http://quransmessage.com/articles/idolatry%20according%20to%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm)

Having outlined what constitutes idolatry according to the Quran, I will touch on d main question raised in ur submission a little more. Contrary to ur post, majority of Christians though do not consider Jesus Christ (pbuh) as a separate God besides God (as u rightly stated), they do consider him part of the God composition (in that without the son, the “Godhead” would be incomplete; thus d Father NEEDS d son to b complete, which would raise many questions about d sovereignty of God). Interestingly many Muslims have idolized the prophet Mohammed (pbuh) n even his family in some instances, n tho they may not have said he is God or part/a manifestation of God, they turn to him for salvation n intercession, despite God forbidding this explicitly in d Quran. And this goes to the heart of the discussion. I hope my above submission answers ur questions. Peace

HIS REPLY
Hi bro, thanks for your detailed response. I think the problem with much of the world is that people don't like asking questions that they think might offend others, but I am glad I asked because I learned a quite few things from your response. The author of the Quran insists in several places that the same God who gave the Quran is the One who gave the earlier scriptures, the Torah and the gospels. So, if we are to be charitable in our interpretations, we must start by accepting what the author says as true in our assessment. I believe there is one God, and there is nothing that goes on under the sun without his knowledge. When Hagar and Ishmael fled to the wilderness, the angel of the Lord appeared to Hagar and promised to make her descendants a great nation. Hagar called the angel of the Lord who appeared to her "You are a God who sees." "GEN16.13 And she called the name of the LORD that spake unto her, Thou God seest me: for she said, Have I also here looked after him that seeth me? GEN16.14 Wherefore the well was called Beerlahairoi; behold, it is between Kadesh and Bered." I know that angels are messengers of God, but there are some angels who receive worship as God, like the One who appeared to Manoah and his wife in Judges, the One who appeared to Abraham, to Moses in the burning bush, to Jacob, to Gideon, and to the 72 elders of Israel. Here is an example from Judges: "JOS5.14 And he said, Nay; but as captain of the host of the LORD am I now come. And Joshua fell on his face to the earth, and did worship, and said unto him, What saith my Lord unto his servant? JOS5.15 And the captain of the LORD's host said unto Joshua, Loose thy shoe from off thy foot; for the place whereon thou standest is holy. And Joshua did so." So here we see the captain of the host of the LORD receiving worship that is due only to God. In the book of revelation, we see an example of an angel who refuses to receive the worship that is due only to God. "REV19.10 And I fell at his feet to worship him. And he said unto me, See thou do it not: I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren that have the testimony of Jesus: worship God: for the testimony of Jesus is the spirit of prophecy." Now to the question of whether Jesus is entitled to receive this same kind of worship or whether he ever claimed the title of God Almighty, here is what he said: "REV1.8 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty." "JOH8.56 Your father Abraham rejoiced to see my day: and he saw it, and was glad. JOH8.57 Then said the Jews unto him, Thou art not yet fifty years old, and hast thou seen Abraham? JOH8.58 Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Before Abraham was, I am." So Jesus in the book of John and in the book of Revelation claims to be the I AM, the Alpha and Omega, The Almighty. These are titles reserved only for God. The prophet Isaiah confirms that Jesus indeed has the title of God: "ISA9.6 For unto us a child is born, unto us a son is given: and the government shall be upon his shoulder: and his name shall be called Wonderful, Counsellor, The mighty God, The everlasting Father, The Prince of Peace," and David in the Psalms called him Lord: "PSA45.6 Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: the sceptre of thy kingdom is a right sceptre. PSA45.7 Thou lovest righteousness, and hatest wickedness: therefore God, thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." So, based on this evidence and our understanding that God is one, immortal, indivisible, the only wise God, it seems reasonable to suggests that Jesus is verily God. In other words, he is One with the Father, not a separate deity. Your thoughts, please :).

MY REPLY
Hello Bernard Always useful to engaging with someone who reads. And I must admit, I’m impressed by the scriptural references u provide for ur submissions. To volunteer a good enough response to the verses u quoted from the Bible, u would have to afford me some time to read the verses within context and get back to u on them.
In the meantime the below r my thots on ur post from a general standpoint; one would have to overlook the significantly more overwhelming evidence (verses) from the Bible which negate d standpoint that Jesus (pbuh) is or may be God. Note here that the verses below r only a minute fraction of the verses that negate d above standpoint. Takes me back to a case I came across online sometime back of a Jamaican student who decided to couch her dissertation topic around proving Jesus (pbuh) was God. She concluded after her research that d Bible did not support this position and thus gave up the belief of Jesus being God, and according to her, lived her life according to the scripture. According to the Bible,

• GOD IS NOT A MAN
‘God is NOT MAN’ (Numbers 23:19)
‘For I am God, and NOT MAN’ (Hosea 11:9)

• JESUS (PBUH) WAS A MAN
‘Jesus the Nazarene, a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which God performed THROUGH him in your midst, just as you yourselves know.’ (Acts 2:22)
‘He will judge the world in righteousness THROUGH A MAN whom He has appointed’ (Acts 17:31)
‘THE MAN Christ Jesus’ (Tim. 2:5)

• GOD IS NOT A SON OF MAN
‘God is not a man nor a son of man’ (Numbers 23:19)

• JESUS (PBUH) IS CALLED “SON OF MAN” IN THE BIBLE
‘so will the son of man be’ (Matthew 12:40)
‘For the son of man is going to come’ (Matthew 16:27)
‘until they see the son of man coming in His kingdom.’ (Matthew 28)
‘But so that you may know that the Son of Man has authority’ (Mark 2:10)
‘because he is the son of man’ (John 5:27)
In the Hebrew scriptures, the ‘son of man’ is also used many times speaking of people (Job 25:6; Psalm 80:17; 144:3; Ezekiel 2:1; 2:3; 2:6-8; 3:1-3).

• JESUS (PBUH) DENIED BEING GOD
Jesus spoke to a man who had called him ‘good,’ asking him, ‘WHY DO YOU CALL ME GOOD? NO ONE IS GOOD EXCEPT GOD ALONE.’ (Luke 18:19)
And he said to him, ‘WHY ARE YOU ASKING ME ABOUT WHAT IS GOOD? THERE IS ONLY ONE WHO IS GOOD; but if you wish to enter into life, keep the commandments.’ (Matthew 19:17)

• JESUS (PBUH) BORE WITNESS TO GOD’S GREATNESS
‘My Father is greater than I’ (John 14:28)
‘My father is greater than all.’ (John 10:29)

• JESUS (PBUH) TAUGHT HIS DISCIPLES TO PRAY TO “OUR” FATHER WHO IS IN HEAVEN
‘When you pray, say Our Father which art in heaven.’ (Luke 11:2)
‘In that day, you shall ask me nothing. Whatsoever you ask of the Father in my name.’ (John 16:23)
‘The hour cometh and now is, when the TRUE WORSHIPERS SHALL WORSHIP THE FATHER IN SPIRIT AND IN TRUTH; FOR THE FATHER SEEKETH SUCH TO WORSHIP HIM.’ (John 4:23)

• JESUS (PBUH) WORSHIPED/PRAYED TO GOD
‘that they might know you, THE ONLY TRUE GOD, AND JESUS CHRIST WHOM YOU HAVE SENT.’ (John 17:3)
‘HE CONTINUED ALL NIGHT IN PRAYER TO GOD.’ (Luke 6:12)
‘Just as THE SON OF MAN DID NOT COME TO BE SERVED, BUT TO SERVE’ (Matthew 20:28)
‘he fell with his face to the ground and prayed, ‘My Father’ (Matthew 26:39)
‘During the days of Jesus’ life on earth, he offered up prayers and petitions with loud cries and tears to THE ONE WHO COULD SAVE HIM FROM DEATH, and he was heard because of his reverent submission.’ (Hebrews 5:7)

• THE DISCIPLES DID NOT BELIEVE JESUS (PBUH) WAS GOD
‘Men of Israel, listen to this: JESUS OF NAZARETH WAS A MAN ACCREDITED BY GOD TO YOU BY MIRACLES, WONDERS AND SIGNS, WHICH GOD DID AMONG YOU THROUGH HIM, AS YOU YOURSELVES KNOW.’ (Acts 2:22)
‘The GOD of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, the God of our fathers, has glorified his servant Jesus.’ (Acts 3:13)
‘GOD raised up his servant’ (Acts 3:26)
‘We must obey God rather than men! THE GOD OF OUR FATHERS RAISED JESUS’ (Acts 5:29-30)
‘they raised their voices together in prayer to God. ‘Sovereign Lord,’ they said, ‘you made the heaven and the earth and the sea, and everything in them.’ (Acts 4:24)
‘YOUR HOLY SERVANT JESUS, WHOM YOU ANOINTED.’ (Acts 4:27)
‘of Your holy servant Jesus.’ (Acts 4:30)

• JESUS (PBUH) BORE WITNESS THAT HE WAS POWERLESS WITHOUT GOD
‘The son can do nothing by himself; he can only do what he sees his Father doing.’ (John 5:19)
‘I can of mine own self do nothing.’ (John 5:30)

• JESUS (PBUH) DID NOT CLAIM TO BE EQUAL TO/PART OF GOD
‘But when the crowds saw this, they were awestruck, AND GLORIFIED GOD, WHO HAD GIVEN SUCH AUTHORITY TO MEN.’ (Matt. 9:8)
‘a man attested to you by God with miracles and wonders and signs which GOD PERFORMED THROUGH HIM in your midst.’ (Acts 2:22)
‘he went about doing good and healing all who were oppressed by the devil, FOR GOD WAS WITH HIM.’ (Acts 10:38)

• JESUS (PBUH) DIFFERENTIATES BETWEEN HIS WILL & THAT OF THE FATHER (GOD)
‘not my will but Yours be done.’ (Luke 22:42)
‘I do not seek my own will, but the will of HIM WHO SENT ME.’ (John 5:30)
‘For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of HIM THAT SENT ME.’ (John 6:38)
‘I AM ONE WHO TESTIFIES FOR MYSELF; my other witness is the Father.’ (John 8:17-18:)
‘Do not let your hearts be troubled. TRUST IN GOD; TRUST ALSO IN ME.’ (John 14:1)

• JESUS (PBUH) GREW IN WISDOM, BUT GOD’S WISDOM IS INFINITE
‘Great is our Lord and abundant in strength; His understanding is infinite.’ (Psalms 147:5)
‘And Jesus increased in wisdom.’ (Luke 2:52)
‘Although he was a son, he learned obedience’ (Heb. 5:8)
‘NO ONE KNOWS ABOUT THAT DAY OR HOUR, NOT EVEN THE ANGELS IN HEAVEN, NOR THE SON, BUT ONLY THE FATHER.’ (Mark 13:32)

For a lack of time, I will limit myself to d above, stating that the above is in no way exhaustive (d arrangement of d verses were borrowed from d following website: http://tellmeaboutislam.com/90-verses-jesus-is-not-god.html). Thus in reference to the verses u quoted, surely, those cannot take precedence over such overwhelming evidence from a Biblical standpoint; If we were to bring it to a secular setting, I believe a few verses would never take precedence over so many verses to d contrary, which begs d question, y this does not apply when it has to do with faith? I will get back to u regarding the verses u quoted after reading them in d context of the verses on d weekend (which by d way is Friday n Saturday in Dubai, as d working week starts on Sunday n ends on Thursday-lol)

HIS REPLY
Thank you once again for your detailed response. I agree with you that the week ends on Saturday and not Sunday. The Sabbath of the Lord God is indeed Saturday. I prayed to the Lord about the issue of the Sabbath because a certain friend of mine insisted that the Sabbath was Saturday. I asked the Lord to give me a sign by which I may know if Saturday is indeed the Sabbath. I said I wanted to see rain fall on three consecutive Saturdays and no rain on the Sundays that followed. The Lord confirmed His Word to me when there was rain on three consecutive Saturdays and no rain on the Sundays that followed. I have no right to question what God has made so clear to me. The Sabbath was intended to be kept from sundown on Friday to sundown on Saturday, with Friday being the preparation day. Jesus kept the Sabbath as was prescribed by the Torah. Although I provided some verses to support my point, I did not list every verse that I could think of, because that would have made my post too long. My understanding is that Jesus was made perfect by his submission to the will of God: "HEB1.4 Being made so much better than the angels, as he hath by inheritance obtained a more excellent name than they. HEB1.5 For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son? HEB1.6 And again, when he bringeth in the firstbegotten into the world, he saith, And let all the angels of God worship him. HEB1.7 And of the angels he saith, Who maketh his angels spirits, and his ministers a flame of fire. HEB1.8 But unto the Son he saith, Thy throne, O God, is for ever and ever: a sceptre of righteousness is the sceptre of thy kingdom. HEB1.9 Thou hast loved righteousness, and hated iniquity; therefore God, even thy God, hath anointed thee with the oil of gladness above thy fellows." Galatians 4:1-2 makes a similar point: "GAL4.1 Now I say, That the heir, as long as he is a child, differeth nothing from a servant, though he be lord of all; GAL4.2 But is under tutors and governors until the time appointed of the father." In the mean time, I will take a closer look at the verses you referenced and get back to you when I have had time to reflect on them.

MY REPLY
Noted Bernard. Nice engaging with u. Hope to engage some more later.

END

Even though I am yet to make the time to read the verses he quotes to support his position of Jesus (pbuh) being cast as God in the Bible, some of them appear to allude to this at face value.

Hope for some useful input InshaaAllah.
Peace, Rafiq
Rafiq

Offline Zack

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Re: Biblical verses that allude to Jesus (pbuh) being God
« Reply #1 on: October 16, 2016, 09:11:56 PM »
Hello Raufiqqq,

It is so good to read of Christian and Muslim friends having an honest discussion! It is so rare, and I would suggest make a commitment to pursue truth wherever that leads, and wherever that ends up stay friends! As a tauhid Christian, I have studied this area reasonably extensively. I personally believe that we can end up in a place where the Qur'an and the Bible can be in unity in one another. In fact for Muslims, there are 2 choices... a) Gods word has been corrupted or b) The essence of the message of the Holy Books is the same. I believe "a" is a very late tradition in Islam, and cannot be correct for a number of reasons.

Anyway I won't go through verse by verse in your post, but refer to a couple of resources.....
- The question on worship to Jesus... A good book for this is "Did the Early Christians worship Jesus" by James Dunn. James Dunn is probably the worlds leading Christology scholar for the church. He answers this, showing the 3 Greek words for "worship" in the New Testament... One being for God, one for a King, and one other. The Greek word for worship for Jesus in the New Testament is that for an earthly King. Any writings by James Dunn (your friend probably respects) would help. His book "The Parting of the Ways" is very good to understanding the parting from Hebrew roots.

- Something that comes to mind is the book "Jesus and the constraints of History." Jesus lived within the "constraints" of the Torah. How to understand New testament Monotheism, the crucifixion, Jesus and the Law etc etc in that context.

- A good resource for your friend to refer to a commentary on each verse from a Tauhid understanding is: http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/
There is a New Testament verse by verse commentary for him to check.

On the other hand, in my view, Islam will need to seriously one day re-look at who Jesus is, and re-look at their view of the Bible. At this point, if we are honest, the masses have thrown out the Bible as evil... and Jesus basically doesn't exist.

Wasalam

Zack

Offline good logic

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Re: Biblical verses that allude to Jesus (pbuh) being God
« Reply #2 on: October 16, 2016, 10:49:44 PM »
Peace Raffiq.
Yes, I agree with Zack. Good discussions between people of different faith/religion...are rare.

There is a big difference between "GOD s revelations" and interpretation /translation of these revelations by humans.

GOD has been consistent throughout the ages about "His only religion". The message is the same throughout, one universal message for all the generations of all the humans:

http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/simple-and-universal-message/

What various generations have done is "write/fabricate/wrongly deduce...Divide themselves into sects of different religions.
GOD s words and men s words are two different things. We can discuss back and forth who is right and what are the meanings...But if we do not distinguish between the two, it will  all be pointless and a waste of time.

http://www.total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/website-pages/word-of-people-v-word-of-god/

We have a big chance ,our generation and the coming generations, to start researching/studying /refining what has been going on in history with various groups that came up with multitudes of religions!!!!!

GOD does not err or forget. He has been guiding the few believers throughout man s history. We must regain that "Trust in GOD Alone" to leads us towards that original "true surrender" to His one and only system.
The bible and Qoran must be studied together to "reffine" God s words and follow His consistent universal message that exist in all His scriptures.
We have the means, more than any generation before us, to check truth against falsehood as directed here:
13:17
He sends down water from the sky, causing the valleys to overflow, then the rapids produce abundant foam. Similarly, when they use fire to refine metals for their jewelry or equipment, foam is produced. God thus cites analogies for the truth and falsehood. As for the foam, it goes to waste, while that which benefits the people stays close to the ground. God thus cites the analogies.
أَنزَلَ مِنَ السَّماءِ ماءً فَسالَت أَودِيَةٌ بِقَدَرِها فَاحتَمَلَ السَّيلُ زَبَدًا رابِيًا وَمِمّا يوقِدونَ عَلَيهِ فِى النّارِ ابتِغاءَ حِليَةٍ أَو مَتٰعٍ زَبَدٌ مِثلُهُ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الحَقَّ وَالبٰطِلَ فَأَمَّا الزَّبَدُ فَيَذهَبُ جُفاءً وَأَمّا ما يَنفَعُ النّاسَ فَيَمكُثُ فِى الأَرضِ كَذٰلِكَ يَضرِبُ اللَّهُ الأَمثٰلَ

Yes brother, we must reffine all words to distinguish between GOD s words and men s words, the truth is GOD s words.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Rafiqqq

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Re: Biblical verses that allude to Jesus (pbuh) being God
« Reply #3 on: October 17, 2016, 12:29:07 PM »
Peace and thanks for your inputs guys. I really appreciate you taking the time. May God guide us all.
Rafiq