The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

[Zack]

Thanks for your reply Nura,

Do you have some references from the Quran where the Quran is correcting the laws of the Torah?

On the other hand, there would seem be a theme throughout the Qur'an recognizing the validity of the Torah, as is seen in the verses below. "What is law" for today has always been a complex topic, as it was in the days of Nabi Isa, where a theme throughout the Injil is Isa opposing the "Teachers of the Law" who burden the Hebrew masses with religious law. (Luke 11:41-44)

Zack

- Those to whom We [Allah] have sent the Book [Torah] study it as it should be studied: They are the ones that believe therein: [Qur'an, sura 2:121]
- "We [Allah] made a covenant with you [Children of Israel]  and raised the Mount [Sinai] above you, saying:  'Grasp fervently [the Torah] what We [Allah] have given you, and bear in minds its precepts, that you may guard yourselves against evil'". [Qur'an, sura 2:65]
- "We [Allah] gave the Book [Torah] to the Israelites and bestowed on them wisdom and prophethood.  We provided them with wholesome things and exalted them above the nations".[Qur'an, sura 45:17, "Kneeling"]

[Nura]

Salam Brother Zack,

From the following verse, we learn that Jews were forbidden certain food items:
6:146
And to those who are Jews We forbade every (animal) with claws, and of the cows and the sheep We forbade to them their fat except what carried their backs or the entrails or what (is) joined with the bone. That (is) their recompense for their rebellion. And indeed, We [surely] are truthful.

Further confirmation:

16:118
And to those who are Jews We have forbidden what We related to you before. And not We wronged them but they used (to) themselves wrong.

If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens, the following verse shows that God did use Muhammad and the Quran to suspend some laws for the Jews

7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

This verse says it clearly, that now our food is lawful for the Children of Israel, alluding that those burdens are lifted and now they can consume what believers can consume, which include fat of animals:

005:005
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among the believers and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their bridal due (taking them in marriage), not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

Brother, the Quran does sometimes change the laws, Quran is the furqan, God lifts some burdens from them and when it does, it mentions the nature of the law being lifted, whether the law was divine like in this case ( consumption of animal fat) or something they made up, like monasticism.

[Student]

Salaam Sister Nura,

You wrote (emphasis mine):

Similarly, he told me that Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God.  But, just like we are asked to follow the shariah in the Quran only, they are asked to follow the shariah ( religious laws and rites) present in their books not the Quran. They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books. God mentions and corrects the laws and doctrines that needed correction and confirmation. God mentions, corrects and confirms their laws in the Quran, others that are not mentioned God has said that He has overlooked and brushed over much of what is in their Books.

This is what I have understood from Brother Joseph's articles and replies to me and others regarding this topic.

This is NOT how I understood Sir Joseph's position on People of the Book, he may correct me (if/when he gets to read this) but meanwhile will you please help me with the following questions:

Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God

• What happens if whoever (or however many) among them doesn't do so?
• Where does Quran place them or calls them?
• Did Sir Joseph Islam provide link to resources/evidence where some/any sect from the Jews/Christians uphold this theology?
• What do this Quran believing BUT Torah/Gospel following sect of the Jews/Christians calls or treat those among them who don't?
• In other words, is there any evidence or traces of two major sects/groups among the people of the book disputing and debating this belief/thought?
• Is there any Synagogue/Church that caters to this unique believers anywhere in the world?

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books

• Which sect among the people of the Book believe/uphold this theology?
• This assumes they must read/parse the entire Quran, then logically speaking how or why would they go back to something which is protect and 100% Truth to something that is NOT according to their own belief after confirming Quran
• How can (after having believed Quran as Divine writ and to be from same God) they will oscillate between EXPLICIT & GRAPHIC (in Quran) and ALLEGORIC (at best in TORAH) on the Day of Reckoning and the Hereafter life?
• After reading Quran, are the Jews not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) in/about Prophet Isa AS?
• After reading Quran, are the Christians not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) that there's no 2nd coming of the Prophet Isa AS?
• If they fail to do so, where does Quran place/call them?

Thanks in advance for your time for the clarification as it will definitely better my understanding on the subject 

[wanderer]

Hi Student--
You appear to have a large misunderstanding about what is expected of the People of the Book. Simply because very few People of the Book believe in the Quran's veracity, does not mean they aren't supposed to. Similarly,  just because polytheists are 'supposed' to abandon their multiple deities, but that does not mean that they do. Or because Muslims are 'supposed' to only uphold one scripture (Quran) not many (Hadith collections) doesn't mean that most do.
As you can see, this is a very fallacious argument.
Kind Regards
wanderer

[Zack]

Salam Brother Zack,

From the following verse, we learn that Jews were forbidden certain food items:
6:146
And to those who are Jews We forbade every (animal) with claws, and of the cows and the sheep We forbade to them their fat except what carried their backs or the entrails or what (is) joined with the bone. That (is) their recompense for their rebellion. And indeed, We [surely] are truthful.

Further confirmation:

16:118
And to those who are Jews We have forbidden what We related to you before. And not We wronged them but they used (to) themselves wrong.

If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens, the following verse shows that God did use Muhammad and the Quran to suspend some laws for the Jews

7:157
Those who follow the Messenger, the unlettered Prophet, whom they find him written with them in the Taurat and the Injeel. He commands them to the right and forbids them from the wrong, and he makes lawful for them the pure things and makes unlawful for them the impure things and he relieves from them their burden and the fetters which were upon them. So those who believe in him and honor him, and help him and follow the light which has been sent down with him. Those (are) [they] the successful ones."

This verse says it clearly, that now our food is lawful for the Children of Israel, alluding that those burdens are lifted and now they can consume what believers can consume, which include fat of animals:

005:005
"This day (all) the good things are made lawful for you; and the food of those who have been given the Book is lawful for you and your food is lawful for them; and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among the believers and the chaste women (Arabic: muh-sanatu) from among those who have been given the Book before you (are lawful for you); when you have given them their bridal due (taking them in marriage), not fornicating nor taking them for secret concubines; and whoever denies faith, his work indeed is of no account, and in the hereafter he shall be one of the losers"

Brother, the Quran does sometimes change the laws, Quran is the furqan, God lifts some burdens from them and when it does, it mentions the nature of the law being lifted, whether the law was divine like in this case ( consumption of animal fat) or something they made up, like monasticism.

Thank you Nura for the verses presented above which are very helpful. I would like to mention a couple of points...

1) In the verses above, you are mixing up 2 groups of people.
a) The first group, 6:146 and other such verses, are referring to Jews, and how Allah gave them the Torah that they need to follow. (See 4:160 and 5:58). This is very clear.

b) The second group is explained "If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens (16:118)", are those who choose to follow the Messenger.

This second group are predominantly Arab tribes, and predominantly warriors... who have different tribal laws and are now living together. Muhammad instructs them that they do not need to live under the law of the Jews, but to live by the instructions that they are reciting (the Qur'an).

Actually, this is very similar to Paul's theme in the Injil..not living under Jewish law. The revelation of the Quran is very practical… ethical teaching for tribes who had no law.

So the context is.... Instruction to Arab tribes, not to be burdened by Jewish law. The ethical instructions recited by united Arab tribes has nothing to do with it replacing or correcting the Torah. Using the instructions to his Arab followers to mean that Muhammad intended  these to be correction and replacement for the Torah creates all sorts of contradictions in the Qur'an.

For me, context is King, as against taking a verse out of the big picture context.

Regards

Zack

[Nura]

Salam Brother Student

Your questions will be in blue and my answer to them will be in black.

Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God
1. What happens if whoever (or however many) among them doesn't do so?

Are you asking me what is going to happen if they do not follow God's orders? God only can give you a detailed answer for this question but as far as I know from scripture, if you do not follow God's commands you have to answer for it,and your fate is generally thought to be unfavorable.

2. Where does Quran place them or calls them?

If, they are not following God's orders they are not following God's orders, why does there have to be a label for them? There are Muslims who do not follow all the commandments, is there a different label for them? Then why one for similar Jews and Christians? Generally, they are people who do not fear God enough, it is that simple, no label required.

3. Did Sir Joseph Islam provide link to resources/evidence where some/any sect from the Jews/Christians uphold this theology?

Not that I am aware of. But, just because people of the book are not doing what the Quran asks them to do, doesn't mean the commandments do not apply. These people are not doing what God asks them to do, just like Muslims who are making hadith as an indispensable source of law along with the Quran. The presence or absence of a sect in this case is inconsequential.

4. What do this Quran believing BUT Torah/Gospel following sect of the Jews/Christians calls or treat those among them who don't?

Again are you looking for a label? How does it matter what they call each other? What is of importance is the alignment of their belief system with that of scripture. God chose to call all those who believe and submit to Him as Muslims. Prophet Jesus and Moses are called Muslim in the Quran. What other labels are you looking for?

5. In other words, is there any evidence or traces of two major sects/groups among the people of the book disputing and debating this belief/thought?

Not that I am aware of. Most Muslims are unaware of the true message of the Quran, are you asking me that, are there Christians and Jews who are aware of the true message of the Quran and are debating among themselves, when majority Muslims think that Jews and Christians are disbelievers? I highly doubt this.

6. Is there any Synagogue/Church that caters to this unique believers anywhere in the world?

Are there mosques where Quran-centric people and their ideologies are openly considered as valid? very few to non-existent, but that does not mean our approach is wrong or that we do not exist. Just because there maybe no such Church or Synagogue,  does not mean there are no believers of this kind. We exist, this should be evidence enough that maybe there exists such people from among Children of Israel. God knows best every person's heart and soul.

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books

1. Which sect among the people of the Book believe/uphold this theology?

I am not aware of any sect doing this today. The Quran asks them to do this. If no sect is doing this today, does not mean, the Quran's commandment is lifted. If, they are not doing this knowingly, they will have to answer to God.

2. This assumes they must read/parse the entire Quran, then logically speaking how or why would they go back to something which is protect and 100% Truth to something that is NOT according to their own belief after confirming Quran

This is not an assumption, the Quran asks them to read it, and think over it. The Quran then asks them to go back to their own scriptures and follow them faithfully and sincerely. They would go back simply because God asks them to. Again The Quran mentions clearly the beliefs/laws/rites etc it is confirming. They are asked to use the Quran as a book to discern their beliefs and laws with. The Quran accepts that the Bible went through changes at the hands of humans, but yet, asks their adherents to come back to those beliefs that are confirmed in the Quran.

3. How can (after having believed Quran as Divine writ and to be from same God) they will oscillate between EXPLICIT & GRAPHIC (in Quran) and ALLEGORIC (at best in TORAH) on the Day of Reckoning and the Hereafter life?

The Quran is the book confirming the Bible, not the other way around. They are asked to compare and correct their Biblical beliefs and rites with the Quran. The Quran confirms for them, the truth in their scripture. If the Bible differs from the Quran regarding a belief , they  have to accept the word of the Quran because the Quran protects the Bible, not the other way around. The Quran is very clear when it is lifting or correcting a law for the Children of Israel, commenting on the nature of these laws,  divine ( they can consume animal fat now) or made up by humans ( monasticism).

4. After reading Quran, are the Jews not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) in/about Prophet Isa AS?

Yes, they are asked to correct their beliefs according to what the Quran proclaims.

5.  After reading Quran, are the Christians not required to correct their belief/doctrine (whilst keeping the Torah law in their life) that there's no 2nd coming of the Prophet Isa AS?

Please see my answer to your previous question.

6. If they fail to do so, where does Quran place/call them?

They are simply not following God's orders knowingly, in that case they become disbelievers. But, the state of the heart and truth about one's soul is only known to God. So, I will refrain from labeling anyone, this is a completely personal decision on my part.

Here, are the links where Brother Joseph answered my questions :

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=849.msg3235#msg3235

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=887.0

[wanderer]

Hi Nura! It seems as if you and I are in agreement. Hopefully this will help Brother Student.
Regards
wanderer

[Zack]

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books

3. How can (after having believed Quran as Divine writ and to be from same God) they will oscillate between EXPLICIT & GRAPHIC (in Quran) and ALLEGORIC (at best in TORAH) on the Day of Reckoning and the Hereafter life?

The Quran is the book confirming the Bible, not the other way around. They are asked to compare and correct their Biblical beliefs and rites with the Quran. The Quran confirms for them, the truth in their scripture. If the Bible differs from the Quran regarding a belief , they  have to accept the word of the Quran because the Quran protects the Bible, not the other way around. The Quran is very clear when it is lifting or correcting a law for the Children of Israel, commenting on the nature of these laws,  divine ( they can consume animal fat now) or made up by humans ( monasticism).

Hi Nura,

I got a message that there was a reply whilst I was typing the  post below, which was yours I think. Your post about the Qur'an correcting the corrupt earlier Holy Books.... I am not sure how you can come to that conclusion. The issue repeatedly is the twisting of belief due to the lack of Holy Books available. (See verses quoted below). In regards to the discussion on the Quran law replacing the Torah law.....

1) In the verses above, you are mixing up 2 groups of people.
a) The first group, 6:146 and other such verses, are referring to Jews, and how Allah gave them the Torah that they need to follow. (See 4:160 and 5:68). This is very clear.

b) The second group is explained "If they choose to believe in Prophet Muhammad and the Quran, then they can be free from some of these burdens (16:118)", are those who choose to follow the Messenger.

This second group are predominantly Arab tribes, and predominantly warriors... who have different tribal laws and are now living together. Muhammad instructs them that they do not need to live under the law of the Jews, but to live by the instructions that they are reciting (the Qur'an).

Actually, this is very similar to Paul's theme in the Injil..not living under Jewish law. The revelation of the Quran is very practical… ethical teaching for tribes who had no law.

So the context is.... Instruction to Arab tribes, not to be burdened by Jewish law. The ethical instructions recited by united Arab tribes has nothing to do with it replacing or correcting the Torah. Using the instructions to his Arab followers to mean that Muhammad intended  these to be correction and replacement for the Torah creates all sorts of contradictions in the Qur'an.

For me, context is King, as against taking a verse out of the big picture context.

Regards

Zack

[Nura]

Hi Zack

Brother are you of the opinion that the Bible did not undergo alterations at all? Then I am sorry I do not agree with you. The Quran is very clear about this that the Bible did become altered at the hands of humans. There is mention of scribal additions and alterations, not only things being read into it. There are two kinds of corruptions mentined. Concepts being obscured and new concepts being red into scripture and also people writing additional things with their own hands and saying this is from God. These are mentioned clearly.  But that did not result in wholsale corruption. Guidance could still be sifted from what remained between their hands.

I am not confusing the two groups brother, maybe I could not make myself clear. The Quran does not give tribal laws. I am sorry but I do not agree that the laws in the Quran were revealed to make Arab tribes come together only. Muhammad was a prophet and then a leader. He did probably make tribal or societal laws but those laws may not be religious in nature. The laws in the Quran are not tribal laws, they are religious laws, revealed to be followed by Muslims. These laws in the Quran are not for disbelievers. I do not agree that the laws revealed in the Quran had only the purpose of uniting the Arab tribes under one law, but it was about uniting them under one 'religious' law. This religious law then was asked to be followed by whoever it reaches from among humans.

The Quran allows the Children of Israel,who believed in Muhammad, to get rid of some of their burdens. But, these believing People of the Book are then asked to follow the parts of their books confirmed by the Quran. This is made clear when the Quran says it ' brushes over/ pardons much'. Brother Joseph also said that the Quran mentions the portions of the previous books it confirms.

When the Quran says that it confirms the Bible (musadaqan), the parts that it confirms are clearly revealed to us including the narratives that deal with Biblical portents.

Yes indeed, the Quran does not confirm falsehood but acts as a 'furqan' (something which does 'farq' - a criterion between right and wrong). It is also a 'muhaymin' a guardian, a watcher, an overseer, over the Bible and determines what is true and what is false.   

Please read his response 4  here:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=446.msg1385#msg1385

The believing people of the book then are asked to go back to their scriptures and follow that which is confirmed by the Quran. The Quran does confirm the Bible's shariah many times, like the mention of Sabbath. Sabbath was not lifted in the Quran but mentioned, so the believing Children of Israel have to do Sabbath. Their fasting and prayer and Zakat is also mentioned, so they have to go refer to their books to do these things.

There are Children of Israel who did not believe in the Prophet knowingly, and their fate is with God. But, God does warn them sternly to not be those who disbelieve in Muhammad and the Quran knowingly. If, they do not believe unknowingly, then they are to follow what they think is the truth within their scripture and God will judge them accordingly

God does not think of confirmed laws in the Quran for Children of Israel as burden. God's laws are never a burden for believers. Even if, the Jews believed in Muhammad, a lot of their original laws remain, like the Quran mentions Sabbath, prayer, fasting, zakat. They used to do these things from before the Quran was revealed. The Quran makes favorable mention of these practices and sanctions them. So, the Jews who believed Muhammad have to do them. Again, the Quran confirms for them their beliefs and laws. The Quran calls itself the guard over Bible.

The Quran says that it lifts some of their religious burdens, it is not me who is saying this. The whole topic is complicated and takes a lot of research. But, so far my research validates what I am saying. If, I am wrong I look forward to learning from you all.

[Zack]

Hi Nura,

OK, no problem... we interpret things differently, in that I honestly don't see Qur'an superceding or correcting the previous Books, nor even introducing Islam....but correcting local belief, which is a very different thing. Maybe one day Br. Joseph will contribute to this discussion in the future.

All the best

Zack

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Zack ...


Just curious ... I've noted brother joseph say the following

Some insights that I personally extract from the verses are:

(1) Prophet Solomon is vindicated from any wrong-doing. This could be related to the myths and beliefs that existed regards him amongst the People of the Book of his lapse into idolatry (1 Kings 11) and / or any myths associated with his involvement in evil sorcery (evil magic).

The full link is here: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=209.msg616#msg616

Yusuf Ali translates it as:

02:102 Yusufali   

They followed what the evil ones gave out (falsely) against the power of Solomon: the blasphemers Were, not Solomon, but the evil ones, teaching men Magic, and such things as came down at babylon to the angels Harut and Marut. But neither of these taught anyone (Such things) without saying: "We are only for trial; so do not blaspheme." They learned from them the means to sow discord between man and wife. But they could not thus harm anyone except by Allah's permission. And they learned what harmed them, not what profited them. And they knew that the buyers of (magic) would have no share in the happiness of the Hereafter. And vile was the price for which they did sell their souls, if they but knew!

So question - how is this not correcting what the scribes may have narrated in the Bible? >>>>

I think there are other examples too where the Quran is a guard / correcting what is in the Bible ....

[Zack]

Shalom / peace Zack ...

Just curious ... I've noted brother joseph say the following

Some insights that I personally extract from the verses are:

(1) Prophet Solomon is vindicated from any wrong-doing. This could be related to the myths and beliefs that existed regards him amongst the People of the Book of his lapse into idolatry (1 Kings 11) and / or any myths associated with his involvement in evil sorcery (evil magic).

The full link is here: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=209.msg616#msg616

Hi Duster,

Thanks for your post. The above quote from Br. Joseph is written in 2011, and written not in any dogmatic sort of way. So does Br Joseph believe that the Qur'an corrected the account of Solomon in 1 Kings 11, and that account is error, it would be best for him to respond.

I suppose I approach the Qur'an not from a "Faith perspective", but logical, practical and historical perspective. My Muslim Professor in Islamic Studies used to tell me, "You can't just say its true, because the Qur'an says so." For the Qur'an, revealed in 620AD, to correct the documents passed down from generation to generation by the Hebrews from over 1,000 years earlier.....there has to be something really solid for it to base the correction on! The Qur'an encourages us to use our intellect, and yet in this case intellect is not used.

The view of the Qur'an "correcting" previous text is, in my view a result of being locked in to traditional way of thinking that was not originally present.  (using a phrase in a book I read by Abu Zayd recently).

As I mentioned a number of times, the Qur'an uses local oral stories, they could be fictive or true, so to fulful its purpose, repentance and embrace Tauhid belief. In this way it is guarding the core belief of the previous scriptures, The Lord our God is one. The Qur'an's primary purpose is NOT a historical narrative to bring correction to previous text.

All the best

Zack

[Duster]

Shalom / peace Zack.

In your view, you think this is something a prophet of Allah could do?

"One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”… In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, “Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”… When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him."

[2 Samuel 11:2-26]

[Zack]

Shalom / peace Zack.

In your view, you think this is something a prophet of Allah could do?

"One evening David got up from his bed and walked around on the roof of the palace. From the roof he saw a woman bathing. The woman was very beautiful, and David sent someone to find out about her. The man said, “Isn’t this Bathsheba, the daughter of Eliam and the wife of Uriah the Hittite?” Then David sent messengers to get her. She came to him, and he slept with her. (She had purified herself from her uncleanness.) Then she went back home. The woman conceived and sent word to David, saying, “I am pregnant.”… In the morning David wrote a letter to Joab and sent it with Uriah. In it he wrote, “Put Uriah in the front line where the fighting is fiercest. Then withdraw from him so he will be struck down and die.”… When Uriah’s wife heard that her husband was dead, she mourned for him."
[2 Samuel 11:2-26]

Hi Duster,

A few points in regards to this sin in the Bible...
- With the Hebrew scriptures covering a period of over a 1,000 years... yes, there are accounts such as these of leaders and Prophets, who being chosen as upright people, fell in to sin.
- Many of the Psalms, such as Psalms 51, is a response of repentance to these actions. If you have this occurrence, you don't have the Pslams of repentance.
- The fall in to sin by their leader, David, sometimes affected not just himself, but a whole Nation.
- In regards to sin, Jesus warned not to respond "How can they commit a sin of adultery like that." He says, "If you look upon a woman lustfully, consider it adultery." (Matthew 5:28). Whilst for much of mankind the inner secrets of the heart are hidden, the Bible says that is the beginning point of sin. The Bible talks able "Your self-righteousness, thinking "I am not as bad as that", is not "Filthy Rags" in the sight of Allah (Isaiah 64:6)
- In all of this, the message of the Bible is that God's nature is loving and compassionate. From the greatest of Kings, even the example of Nabi Daud above, all the way to the street sweeper, God loves, accepts and welcomes back as long as there is always a humble and repentant heart. The Prophets of God were upright people, but even they sinned, whether it be Moses or David.

[Student]

Walekas Salaam
Sister Nura,

Thank you very much for patiently answering all my questions, I really appreciate and respect time you spent in clarification. Now, I think I'm in near complete agreement with you and Joseph Sir thread's topic887.0 and your statement nailed it:

There are Children of Israel who did not believe in the Prophet knowingly, and their fate is with God. But, God does warn them sternly to not be those who disbelieve in Muhammad and the Quran knowingly. If, they do not believe unknowingly, then they are to follow what they think is the truth within their scripture and God will judge them accordingly

I would expound knowingly=come in contact (whenever/wherever), unknowingly=news never reached them - hope you agree?

The potential problem and reconciliation difficulty that still lingers with me is this:

If they followed the guidance of the Quran, they would be referred back to their own scriptures with discernment.

The attributes and instant reaction of people of the book who believed in the veracity of the Quran is no ordinary but awestruck (eyes overflowing with tears, bowing in humility, pleading to God write them down as witnesses).
I would humbly argue, to these awesome people (if) God is sending them back to Books (it is) with confident not so much as with discernment, simply because

• These people after having shaken to the core by just listening the recitation of few verses whose hearts have been deeply moved and penetrated with pure light are hardly imagined/expected to go back to anything else and anything less rather they develop a deep burning and intense desire to know and hear more
• And so when they come across 2:38, and all of 6236 verses they feel not out of choice but gladly embrace the pure and pristine word of God, the Quran and its Law

I humbly feel from my Quran reading while there is no explicit statement about abandoning previous Laws but there are numerous implicit verses and fill-up the blank statements and rhetorical and cross-questionings and reminders to the adherent of previous scriptures so much so that practically we find not a single converted Christian or a Jew who oscillates between Quran and Torah/Injeel. Either they completely reject Quran or happily embrace it fully and unconditionally. Just as the magicians fell on their knees and gave up their life before Musa AS the people of the book give up their books and its laws and kneel down as captured in 3:199, 5:83. If I were a Christian or a Jew I would have done no differently. This is my humble observation. Don't you agree too?