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Offline xsilentmurmurx

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Assalamu Alaykum Brother Joseph Islam

First off, I want to say Ramadan Mubarak to you and your loved ones. May Allah, Azza wa Jal, accept everyones fasting and ibadaat this holy month.

I have a question regarding the article you wrote a few years back, on your website, regarding the prophecy about the Prophet (PBUH)in the Torah and Gospel in relation to Surah 7:157. The article was actually about the name Ahmad and whether or not it appeared in the Bible. In that article you said that Surah 7:157 is implying that the description of a true prophet is what is mentioned in the previous scriptures.  What is the proof that the Quran is only referring to the descriptive nature of a true prophet and not an actual description of Prophet Muhammad (PBUH)? As you know already, hundreds of books and articles have been written trying to prove that such and such quote from the Bible is referring to the Prophet of Islam. The Jews and Christians always argue that against that. I found your article to be very interesting, but that question lingered in my mind and I am wondering what the proof of your argument happens to be?

Offline Joseph Islam

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Dear xsilentmurmurx

Wa alaikum assalam

Ramadan Mubarak to you too and welcome to the forum!

Thank you for your question.

With all due respect, I trust that you will kindly appreciate that the burden of proof is not with me to prove that verse 7:157 is an exclusive reference to Prophet Muhammad's description only to be found within the Bible. In contrast, the burden of proof is with those that assert this claim and the implication, that no other prophet could possibly be referenced with this description found in both the Torah and Injeel.

I have detailed in my article [1] below why I feel that both verses 7:157 and 61:6 cannot be simply dovetailed and why they need to be understood in separate contexts.   

As I mentioned in the article [1]:

Verse 7:157

  • There is no mention of a name or a name that is captured by the Bible
  • Mentions a gentile (ummi) prophet that is mentioned in the previous scriptures who enjoins good, forbids evil, makes lawful good things and provides a light of guidance which should be followed.

In conclusion, I noted:

"On the strength of verse 7:157 alone, what the Quran is likely referencing viz a viz the Bible are clear indications of the nature of a true Prophet such as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that should be followed and not a Prophet of a particular name." [2]

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm
[2] Ibid
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline xsilentmurmurx

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Assalamu Alaykum

Thank you for your response. I do get what you are arguing, but doesnt the wording of the Ayah, when taken in isolation from any other ayaat, imply that there was some sort of description. that fit the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) perfectly, within the Bible, that the Jews and Christians of the Prophet's society were able to read and determine the truth of the Prophet's message?  It doesnt have to be a specific name like how some apologists argue is in the song of solomon and etc. Maybe I am just repeating myself here. 

Also, what are the descriptions of the true nature of a true prophet as per the Torah and Injil in your opinion?

Thank you once again for your response!




Dear xsilentmurmurx

Wa alaikum assalam

Ramadan Mubarak to you too and welcome to the forum!

Thank you for your question.

With all due respect, I trust that you will kindly appreciate that the burden of proof is not with me to prove that verse 7:157 is an exclusive reference to Prophet Muhammad's description only to be found within the Bible. In contrast, the burden of proof is with those that assert this claim and the implication, that no other prophet could possibly be referenced with this description found in both the Torah and Injeel.

I have detailed in my article [1] below why I feel that both verses 7:157 and 61:6 cannot be simply dovetailed and why they need to be understood in separate contexts.   

As I mentioned in the article [1]:

Verse 7:157

  • There is no mention of a name or a name that is captured by the Bible
  • Mentions a gentile (ummi) prophet that is mentioned in the previous scriptures who enjoins good, forbids evil, makes lawful good things and provides a light of guidance which should be followed.

In conclusion, I noted:

"On the strength of verse 7:157 alone, what the Quran is likely referencing viz a viz the Bible are clear indications of the nature of a true Prophet such as Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) that should be followed and not a Prophet of a particular name." [2]

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm
[2] Ibid

Offline Joseph Islam

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Dear xsilentmurmurx

Wa alaikum assalam

Please kindly note the gist of the arguments I have made regarding this topic within my article and summarily repeated in my post above:

There are the possibility of references in the Bible that provide descriptions of a true prophet such as Prophet Muhammad and not a direct reference to the Prophet by a particular name. As you have already intimated, there are a plethora of writings that have tried to address this including references which include possible descriptions.

With regards the mention of Prophet Muhammad's name in the Bible, I have already noted:

"There is no need to assume that the mention of 'Ahmad' was ever captured by the Canon Gospels or wider New Testament literature. This may well have been a belief that was prevalent by a certain contingent of the People of the Book or present in an Apocrypha which is now not extant. The Quran could also be providing new information which may have not been known before as there is no reason to assume that every conversation of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was captured by the New Testament writers.
 
There also remains the possibility that due to Christian theology asserting Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as the final saviour to mankind, that any further reference of a law bearing Prophet or messenger to the gentiles was not deemed appropriate and therefore not captured by the Christian New Testament writers."
[1]

Please kindly forgive me, but I cannot surmise further beyond what I feel is the remit of the information provided by the Quran on this topic.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline xsilentmurmurx

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Assalamu Alaykum brother Joseph Islam

Thank you for the reply and I apologize for the delay in response.

Basically this is how I understand your argument and please correct me if I am wrong:

The Ayah from the Quran is pretty much saying that in the Bible there are descriptions of the nature of a true prophet (and these could be spread around throughout the Old and New Testament), which do not necessarily mention nor describe the Prophet Muhammad (PBUH) exclusively, but can be indicators that the prophet was a true Prophet of God.

Am I correct in my understanding of your argument?

If so, then my follow up question is this: How would the Jews and Christians be able to use those indicators to differentiate between the truthful nature of the Prophet's message vs some one else who might claim something similar? Let's say that Person  X came around during the mission of our Prophet and claimed to be sent by Allah, Glorified be His Holy Name, how would the Jews and Christians be able to distinguish between which Prophet is the true Prophet and which one is a false one? There has to be some indicator in the Bible that would set apart our Prophet from any false claimants during his time or after his time. Or else, how would anyone be able to tell who is speaking the truth?

I hope you understand what I am trying to ask here. Basically, your argument, as interesting as it is, leaves an important question for the truth seeker: how does one use those indicators, as well as WHAT/WHERE are those indicators, that would lead one to necessarily conclude that the Prophet was sent by Allah?

I hope you can help me understand this better because for YEARS I Have been pondering on this question regarding the prophecies of the coming of our Prophet.


Fi Amaanillah




Dear xsilentmurmurx

Wa alaikum assalam

Please kindly note the gist of the arguments I have made regarding this topic within my article and summarily repeated in my post above:

There are the possibility of references in the Bible that provide descriptions of a true prophet such as Prophet Muhammad and not a direct reference to the Prophet by a particular name. As you have already intimated, there are a plethora of writings that have tried to address this including references which include possible descriptions.

With regards the mention of Prophet Muhammad's name in the Bible, I have already noted:

"There is no need to assume that the mention of 'Ahmad' was ever captured by the Canon Gospels or wider New Testament literature. This may well have been a belief that was prevalent by a certain contingent of the People of the Book or present in an Apocrypha which is now not extant. The Quran could also be providing new information which may have not been known before as there is no reason to assume that every conversation of Prophet Jesus (pbuh) was captured by the New Testament writers.
 
There also remains the possibility that due to Christian theology asserting Prophet Jesus (pbuh) as the final saviour to mankind, that any further reference of a law bearing Prophet or messenger to the gentiles was not deemed appropriate and therefore not captured by the Christian New Testament writers."
[1]

Please kindly forgive me, but I cannot surmise further beyond what I feel is the remit of the information provided by the Quran on this topic.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] IS THE NAME 'AHMAD' FOUND IN THE BIBLE?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/ahmad%20FM3.htm