Women's issues.. Again

[Hamzeh]

Salam

I personally believe polygamy should only be practiced in dire circumstances. 

Although I would need to see proof of this from the Quran. At the end a man will need to take this up with his wife and go from there. The situation will tell what happens.

But from what I can see I see no problem for men marrying multiple women if they the women agree from a Quran's perspective

Salam

[Sleepysoul]

Salam


Although I would need to see proof of this from the Quran. At the end a man will need to take this up with his wife and go from there. The situation will tell what happens.

But from what I can see I see no problem for men marrying multiple women if they the women agree from a Quran's perspective

Salam

Salaam,

If they actually, truly don't have a problem with it then perhaps.
Otherwise I don't understand why orphans would be mentioned in the verse then. The theme is mainly orphans..
The word for "orphans", "yatim", it does not encompass only children, correct?

You didn't reply, give me examples you know of successful polygamous marriages where all are treated fairly and live happily together..

[Hamzeh]

Wa 3alykum assalam

Otherwise I don't understand why orphans would be mentioned in the verse then. The theme is mainly orphans..
The word for "orphans", "yatim", it does not encompass only children, correct?

Yes the verse is mainly focusing on making sure no injustices is happening to the orphans. Later on in the chapter after reading verse 4:127 one then goes back and realizes that verse 4:3 is arguably mainly speaking about the female orphans the ones men were desiring to marry.

In my humble opinion and an interpolation is that God is telling the men that these are orphans first. Whom you need to give them their inheritance and then possibly marry them. If you fear that you are not able to give them their inheritance or that you are going to use it or share it by you or thats why you are marrying them because of the money, God then illustrates that marry any other women of your choice, (in/by) twos and threes and fours. That is better than doing injustice to the orphan women by squandering them out of their portion and consuming it in your life.

Also its important to point out that they were desiring to marry them obviously after they are at an age of sound judgement and reason and not children.

By that verse 4:3 God does not forbid multiple marriages for men. Rather multiple marriages is further supported. Also God does give the commandments of which women a man can marry. However He does forbid marrying women who are already married (4:24)

You didn't reply, give me examples you know of successful polygamous marriages where all are treated fairly and live happily together..

Yes I do know polygnyous marriages. They seem fine Alhamdulila.

What is a happy life? I don't think they are seeking a fantasy movie like marriage. They understand this temporal world. I think they see the blessings in their marriages those that accept them. They also understand that life is not a walk in the park all the time. They all got their responsibilities and struggles just like any other marriage.

I mean at the end the only one who is going to complain about a polygynous marriage is the first wife as the other ones know exactly what they are getting themselves into and obviously is something they want. Other wise then we are getting into a completely different topic.

There is also women who try to be with married men(could be be brothers, friends etc, so I just know). What does that tell you? But as you can see it aint that easy. Some women deep down mostly worry about the first wife and are worried to be rejected by her. I even know families moms and brothers and sisters who are fine with it out of their own free will(sure they would rather have had their daughters or sisters marry single men but things just happen). They have no problems with being married to the married man. Its all about the situation. On the other hand sure there is also women who have lots of problems with it.

Also keep in mind thats its not all the time that its the men that are looking for women to get married to. Sometimes women end up wanting to be with a man(in marriage) that she desires thats already married. (Yes we can say the same thing about the opposite but we already established that the Quran forbids that (4:24) and plus I don't think there is a man would ever want to marry a women who is married because he desires her. I know you said thats only my opinion but I really doubt it. Maybe out of the scope of religion there maybe men who would be with women who are married for seeking something temporary but to marry them while knowing they have another husband in marriage, men are by nature not given into this. It could just be my opinion.

I'm not saying all this happens all the time but there is some men that have that capacity and although there is many men out there, there still seems to be multiple women who want this one man and are willingly want to marry him. Masha'Allah there is many of them. But maybe because of the restrictions imposed this often leads to lewdness, secrets relationships, and so on. I'm sure that some men are able and willing to take some of these women as wives. But with all the headaches attached to it they simply don't. Not these days anyways. I feel sad sometimes for the women also who end up wanting a man to marry but he does not(possibly because he does not want to hurt his wife and compromise his marriage). Don't get me wrong I do understand why the wife would get hurt. But again I find that the Quran does authorize men to have multiple women and at the same stoke God does not intend to hurt a women's feelings. I understand. So therefor this seems to be a societal feeling of jealousy and maybe much more or something else. I do not know. But there does seem to be women who lived with this for ages according to history. 

Also what I can tell you for sure is that the prophet had multiple marriages( Prophet is an example for the believers). I would strongly assume that the men of yore had multiple marriages believers and non believers. To say that their marriages were unwarranted and the wives were all treated ill would be irrational. I'm sure lots of those women lived honourable lives with great men who loved them and tried their best to treat them equally and put their lives in front of their own.

Anyways I think I . Which probably should not be part of this forum. I'm just trying to help out with what the Quran authorizes to humanity. We can simply accept them or reject them or pass over them. To be honest I do not see any special circumstances that the Quran speaks about for a multiple marriage to be lawful for a man. In the site of God multiple marriages for men seem fine however todays world makes men seem like they are doing something wrong.

Your story about the man who married 3 wives and made them do things for him, seems like your making it look like that anyone who has multiple wives live like that. I mean by how you simply described it was like some slaves. We all know thats not right. Slaving anyone is wrong. I do not know what that has to do with polygny.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace br. Hamzeh .... really enjoyed your post 

[good logic]

Brother Hamzeh,had you been a woman and written that  last post of yours, I would have been shocked, nevertheless I would have accepted that some women are happy to share a husband .

You tried hard brother, but it is not convincing.
 
All a man can do, in such a topic, is speak for men.

I would like to hear from the ladies on how women feel about polygamous marriages, that will give us a truer picture.
 Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand.
GOD bless.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum brother Good logic

Like i said in my last post of course any women would possibly not prefer to share her husband. Its simple

Do you think women who are involved in a polygny marriage are forced into that marriage?

Or do you think they made a decision that suits their own needs and wants. Sure we can always look at other peoples lifes and say this is better and I would rather have this. But people make decisions oaths and covenants and stick to them.

Why did they get married to a married man? They know there is many single men out there in the world. But some women seem to not be so concerned with this matter so much.

I don't get what you mean I tried hard?

Im not so convincing about what? Can you tell me if its wrong for a man to have more than one wife?  You said it encourages one wife? Well what happens if a man has 2 or more?

You know also that a man cannot hold women against their will. The options at the end are all free. Its the decision of a women if she wants to get married.

So women who are married to married are making decisions that suits their own needs.

The Quran again does not encourage or discourage polygny. It does encourage a man if that he fears or already knows that he cannot be just or is going to give attention to one more than the other then avoid it. But it does not deter a man from having more than one wife.

But it does part guidance to those who choose to have more than one wife.  Simple.

You already know how ladies would react to this topic. No one is saying ladies like polygny marriages or even would accept it unless faced with a situation in their life. But just like anytjing else in the world people do whats best for them.

Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand. 

I don't get what your saying? It is absolutely true that a man cannot do perfect justice between his wives. God is simply telling him that this is normal but do not go over board and leave one wife in complete suspicion while giving all the attention to one and so on.

You say you believe in the Quran and its justice? Can you tell me then why the Quran legitimizes polygny? Encourages one wife is not a good answer.

Salam

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum brother Good logic

I'm really sorry brother, I think I miss understood your comments and I do apologize. I also think my last sentence sounded rude and please don't think I was trying to be harsh in anyway. I was typing on a phone and is a little more difficult to see questions and reply at the same time. Now that I re-read my comment it does sound rude. Please forgive me bro.

Also now that I read your comments again I would like to respond to them again.

Brother Hamzeh,had you been a woman and written that  last post of yours, I would have been shocked, nevertheless I would have accepted that some women are happy to share a husband .

I do agree.  .

You tried hard brother, but it is not convincing.

I only wrote what I did first because Sleepysoul asked for examples.

All a man can do, in such a topic, is speak for men.

I would say yes most of the time but sometimes some men hear some women's sentiments and their feelings. But I know what you mean, I was not trying to convince anyone on the logic behind polygny as I stated before only God knows why He allowed it.

I would like to hear from the ladies on how women feel about polygamous marriages, that will give us a truer picture.

I understand what your saying, but it is possible that you are risking that the truer picture that your going to get from most of the ladies will conflict with the Quran's message about polygny as the Quran does not forbid it.

Bear in mind Qoran encourages one wife (You will not be able to remain just to more than one!) as far as I can understand.
GOD bless.

I think you are referring to verse 4:129. I think your comments in brackets are not portraying the correct message or the message in full. I would be more inclined to interpolate it that God is telling men who have or choosing to have more than one wife that you will not be able to do perfect justice between the wives you have even if it is something you desire so much. It is not possible as human beings and it is also not expected from God that perfect justice will be committed but of course try your hardest. But make sure you do not give all your attention or be inclined to one so much that you leave the other/s in suspense. But if you think or fear that injustice of this kind is going to happen then remain with one or pick one as it is not fair for any women to live like that in suspense with no attention (4:3). With these options given I think believing men should always do the right thing. Thats how I see it anyways for now, God knows best.

I guess I just wanted to know since you seem to only imply that the Quran encourages one wife (which seems to be a softened approach as to what the Quran really does permit I could be wrong) but know very well there is explicit verses that demonstrate the permission for polygny then how can a man ever distinguish between the two options if they strive to maintain justice? I feel people get mixed messages.

Do you agree that if one really does have two options freely and does strive to maintenance justice then its safe to say that the Quran neither encourages or discourages polygny?  Its simply left to what circumstances that arrive in peoples lives. The Quran caters for all in what God deems right.

May God bless you too
Salam

[Sleepysoul]

Yes the verse is mainly focusing on making sure no injustices is happening to the orphans. Later on in the chapter after reading verse 4:127 one then goes back and realizes that verse 4:3 is arguably mainly speaking about the female orphans the ones men were desiring to marry.

In my humble opinion and an interpolation is that God is telling the men that these are orphans first. Whom you need to give them their inheritance and then possibly marry them. If you fear that you are not able to give them their inheritance or that you are going to use it or share it by you or thats why you are marrying them because of the money, God then illustrates that marry any other women of your choice, (in/by) twos and threes and fours. That is better than doing injustice to the orphan women by squandering them out of their portion and consuming it in your life.

Which part of the verse says marry "other" women? What's the word for "other"? And not the women from the orphans?

Yes I do know polygnyous marriages. They seem fine Alhamdulila.

What is a happy life? I don't think they are seeking a fantasy movie like marriage. They understand this temporal world.

So you know some people who are living in polygamous marriages?

It's not just a man's right to live a "happy life" by doing whatever they wish at the expense of someone else. As I said, I have mostly heard of unsuccessful polygamous marriages. One example I gave you is actually of a relative. I feel for the women that are living this way despite not wanting to. May Allah reward these women immensely in the next life and free them from these chains.

Can't say that understand this "temportal world" if they keep marrying just because they like what they see.

Yes, that is one thing that comforts me, knowing that these restrictions and and rules apply only to this world.

Also keep in mind thats its not all the time that its the men that are looking for women to get married to. Sometimes women end up wanting to be with a man(in marriage) that she desires thats already married. (Yes we can say the same thing about the opposite but we already established that the Quran forbids that (4:24) and plus I don't think there is a man would ever want to marry a women who is married because he desires her. I know you said thats only my opinion but I really doubt it. Maybe out of the scope of religion there maybe men who would be with women who are married for seeking something temporary but to marry them while knowing they have another husband in marriage, men are by nature not given into this. It could just be my opinion.

Have you heard of this thing called "cheating"? Or how about adultery? There are women that cheat and "outside the scope of religion" there are even cases of women in polyandrous relationships. See, there's even a word for it. I'm not saying it's correct but often men like to pretend that they have this oh-so huge problem controlling themselves sexually as if for women it's all easy peasy.
You don't know all the men in the world, so you can't say what all men's nature is.

I'm not saying all this happens all the time but there is some men that have that capacity and although there is many men out there, there still seems to be multiple women who want this one man and are willingly want to marry him. Masha'Allah there is many of them. But maybe because of the restrictions imposed this often leads to lewdness, secrets relationships, and so on. I'm sure that some men are able and willing to take some of these women as wives. But with all the headaches attached to it they simply don't. Not these days anyways. I feel sad sometimes for the women also who end up wanting a man to marry but he does not(possibly because he does not want to hurt his wife and compromise his marriage). Don't get me wrong I do understand why the wife would get hurt. But again I find that the Quran does authorize men to have multiple women and at the same stoke God does not intend to hurt a women's feelings. I understand. So therefor this seems to be a societal feeling of jealousy and maybe much more or something else. I do not know. But there does seem to be women who lived with this for ages according to history. 

That's kind of funny. Let me repeat, not all men want more than one wife. And there are also morally good women who don't keep an eye on other women's husbands.

Also what I can tell you for sure is that the prophet had multiple marriages( Prophet is an example for the believers). I would strongly assume that the men of yore had multiple marriages believers and non believers. To say that their marriages were unwarranted and the wives were all treated ill would be irrational. I'm sure lots of those women lived honourable lives with great men who loved them and tried their best to treat them equally and put their lives in front of their own.

Anyways I think I . Which probably should not be part of this forum. I'm just trying to help out with what the Quran authorizes to humanity. We can simply accept them or reject them or pass over them. To be honest I do not see any special circumstances that the Quran speaks about for a multiple marriage to be lawful for a man. In the site of God multiple marriages for men seem fine however todays world makes men seem like they are doing something wrong.

Your story about the man who married 3 wives and made them do things for him, seems like your making it look like that anyone who has multiple wives live like that. I mean by how you simply described it was like some slaves. We all know thats not right. Slaving anyone is wrong. I do not know what that has to do with polygny.

The other Prophets are also examples for us. Singular wives are mentioned for Prophet Nuh and Prophet Lot (pbut) for example. Why pick one Prophet? If a man wants only one wife, it doesn't mean that he doesn't find Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) to be a good example.

As I said, I think there could be cases where polygamy might help a woman. For example, many divorcees and widows are still treated badly in some Muslim countries, where the government doesn't help either and such women need support. But how many men are willing to put their "temporal worldly desires" aside to give support to such women?

Why did that bother you? I don't know which part of the world you live in where polygamous marriages are all successful with all wives satisfied and treated fairly..

[good logic]

Brother Hamzeh, thank you for your post.
My post was mainly to say that as a man I cannot speak for how women feel
.I know some societies have oppressive traditions and some women have no choice but to go with the system.  May be they say what they do not feel?
 Personally I cannot see why would any man want to have more than one wife.
If one wants to help other unfortunate women ,then help them financially with sadaqua/zakat...Why marry more when you already have a wife and may be children? Is this right and fair for all concerned?
My view anyway.
It is only right to ask women for their views on polygamy.
Common ladies let us have your honest opinion on the subject. Would you like to share a husband?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Sleepysoul

Which part of the verse says marry "other" women? What's the word for "other"? And not the women from the orphans?

There is no word that says "other". It seems like it can only be interpolated that way as the other way would seem problematic. From what I can tell is that the previous verse 4:2 is telling men to give and not mix the orphans their property with the mans. Verse 4:3 goes on to say if a man fears that he cannot act fairly with the orphans(at this point one only assumes its female orphans or either does not know). Its not until one reads verse 4:127 that realizes verse 4:3 is speaking about female orphans.

There seems to be already people questioning what is the instructions concerning women? God says He already has given you instructions about them (possibly referring to verse 4:2) and about the orphans girls that the men are desiring to marry who the men are NOT giving them their property(wealth). There actually seems to be a hint to NOT marry the orphan women because they are not giving them their prescribed wealth and property. So verse 4:3 instructs that if they fear that they are not going to act fairly with the orphan women, marry women of your choice two, three, four. So that would mean other women than the orphan women.

It's not just a man's right to live a "happy life" by doing whatever they wish at the expense of someone else. As I said, I have mostly heard of unsuccessful polygamous marriages. One example I gave you is actually of a relative. I feel for the women that are living this way despite not wanting to. May Allah reward these women immensely in the next life and free them from these chains.

Just because a man has multiple wives what makes you feel like he is having a happy life? What I meant was that even the man sometimes is not living a happy life. Just living with whatever faces them. And what is the "at expense of someone else all" about when we are talking about women who freely and willingly married into polygny.
I'm sure we all feel for these women who you speak of. It seems like now your on another topic, and I do not know what to tell you. We understand and we already established that the Quran condemns forced marriages and cruelty. I mean anyone with a sense of mind understands this. That is already clear. I thought we are talking about grown women who are free and under no obligations to marry any one and living under a hypothetical proper Islamic society. Does the Quran condemns polygyn or not? Then you were wondering about the logic and comparing mens desires and women desires? I simply told you God knows best as to why He has permitted polygyn because it simply is verifiable from the Quran.


4:19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.

Have you heard of this thing called "cheating"? Or how about adultery? There are women that cheat and "outside the scope of religion" there are even cases of women in polyandrous relationships.

I'm just telling you what the Quran see's as lawful. I am not trying to encourage multiple marriages, I am just saying to you that the Quran does not condemn or prohibit a man from having multiple wives. It does not consider that as cheating or adultery.

There seems to be even a situation where women gave themselves to the prophet while he was already married (60:10).

I'm not saying it's correct but often men like to pretend that they have this oh-so huge problem controlling themselves sexually as if for women it's all easy peasy.

I think again we talked about that already, there does not seem to be any evidence linked between polygyn and sexual desires. Believers try hard to restrain themselves from any kind of fornication whether single or married.

If I may just change the subject a little as I don't think I can answer all your question.

When I think of polygny I think about how a man breaks it to his first wife or if he even does. I do understand how sad it seems and unfair it seems especially in a time like today. What will likely happen is marriage will go on or will have a divorce or everyone will see what is best for them. I cannot say what is right or wrong.

I am not encouraging polygny and I am not sexist or biased in anyway Insha'Allah. I have a wife, sister, daughters and think about them as well Alhamdulila. It hurts me also to see how some of the muslim world has miss treated women. I am also a believer in the Quran Alhamdulila and I do find support for polygny. I cannot say that its wrong. However the polygny that I find is supported by the Quran is one by free will and justice and is for believing men and believing women and must be beneficial for both man and women. 

Also if anyone can prove that polygny is only allowable in certain dire circumstances and is not permitted anymore or that I have its understood it, I am willing to accept it. Its a big important topic but its not the only thing in life.

Salam

[Hamzeh]

Peace brother Good logic

I know some societies have oppressive traditions and some women have no choice but to go with the system.  May be they say what they do not feel?

I can see your point. But I was referring to free women in western countries.

Personally I cannot see why would any man want to have more than one wife.

I can relate to what your saying, but beauty may be one reason, children, comfort, etc. That probably sounds selfish and greedy, but it may apply to some men, obviously only when taking inconsideration that women are willing and not by compulsion and are getting what they need, freedom, and their justice, other wise if a man cannot provide the means, the right judgment and discernment then only one. Of course a man would have to convince his wife as well.

If one wants to help other unfortunate women ,then help them financially with sadaqua/zakat...Why marry more when you already have a wife and may be children? Is this right and fair for all concerned?

Yeah thats why I don't think the Quran permitted polygyn for helping women, but rather for other reasons inconsidering I guess that the man can convince his wife. 

"Is this right and fair for all concerned?" I'm assuming it is if the Quran seems to permit polygny, otherwise you as well need to figure it out.

Anyways those are my thoughts. God knows best

Salam

[Duster]

but beauty may be one reason, children, comfort, etc. That probably sounds selfish and greedy, but it may apply to some men, obviously only when taking inconsideration that women are willing and not by compulsion and are getting what they need, freedom, and their justice, other wise if a man cannot provide the means, the right judgment and discernment then only one. Of course a man would have to convince his wife as well.

Totally agree .....

[Sleepysoul]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear Sleepysoul


There seems to be already people questioning what is the instructions concerning women? God says He already has given you instructions about them (possibly referring to verse 4:2) and about the orphans girls that the men are desiring to marry who the men are NOT giving them their property(wealth). There actually seems to be a hint to NOT marry the orphan women because they are not giving them their prescribed wealth and property. So verse 4:3 instructs that if they fear that they are not going to act fairly with the orphan women, marry women of your choice two, three, four. So that would mean other women than the orphan women.

There seems to be even a situation where women gave themselves to the prophet while he was already married (60:10).

I'm sure we all feel for these women who you speak of. It seems like now your on another topic, and I do not know what to tell you. We understand and we already established that the Quran condemns forced marriages and cruelty.


When I think of polygny I think about how a man breaks it to his first wife or if he even does. I do understand how sad it seems and unfair it seems especially in a time like today. What will likely happen is marriage will go on or will have a divorce or everyone will see what is best for them. I cannot say what is right or wrong.

I am not encouraging polygny and I am not sexist or biased in anyway Insha'Allah. I have a wife, sister, daughters and think about them as well Alhamdulila. It hurts me also to see how some of the muslim world has miss treated women. I am also a believer in the Quran Alhamdulila and I do find support for polygny. I cannot say that its wrong. However the polygny that I find is supported by the Quran is one by free will and justice and is for believing men and believing women and must be beneficial for both man and women. 

Also if anyone can prove that polygny is only allowable in certain dire circumstances and is not permitted anymore or that I have its understood it, I am willing to accept it. Its a big important topic but its not the only thing in life.


4:19 O ye who believe! Ye are forbidden to inherit women against their will. Nor should ye treat them with harshness, that ye may Take away part of the dower ye have given them,-except where they have been guilty of open lewdness; on the contrary live with them on a footing of kindness and equity. If ye take a dislike to them it may be that ye dislike a thing, and Allah brings about through it a great deal of good.
 

Walaikumasalaam.

One is not supposed to devour the wealth and property of orphans whether one marries them or marries other women. A man can also devour the orphan's property and rights if he marries other women, right?
To me it kind of makes more sense that it might mean to marry the women from the orphans. So the "women", not the children.

But honestly, this whole polygamy issue for marrying multiple other than helping them is what bothers me. If such is the case and only Allah knows the reasoning, then may Allah make it easier for me to understand it.

The Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was not like other regular men. His status and stature is not comparable to other men. Even him and his wives had some rules that do not apply to other Muslims.

Of course Islam does not allow cruelty. However many Muslim men are corrupt. They have made Islam to look as if it's a man's religion and men will be the ones that will be "rewarded" and that Islam cares more about what men want as opposed to women. They have introduced disturbing things such as 72 hooris + 2 worldly wives for each man in Paradise, or how about 72 worldly women "inherited" by each man in Paradise from the ones whose husbands will go to hell, as if women are just bundles to be passed around, being given "fair skinned hooris" (racist) with bla bla body type or being able to marry up to 4 women because "men need this", being allowed to keep sex slaves and "the wife is not allowed to say anything", being allowed to marry little girls, being allowed to beat women, not letting women talk and stifling discussion because "their voice will turn us men on" and "women should stay inside and cook" etc etc.

Don't you see how it can be difficult to get past this? Of course not many Muslim men seem to understand this. And often they try to justify it and explain the "reasoning" behind it.

With the bold part, I suppose I agree. I just don't see it much, the righteous, fair and respectful treatment towards women in this world, especially and sadly, in Muslim countries. And another thing that is shameful? A lot of Muslim men don't even seem to care about it, let alone trying to fix this. They often seem more concerned with women's clothing, women as fitna, where women go and what they do, their "sexual desires", haraam relationships, other sects, the "west" than issues such as domestic abuse, honor killings, sexual harrassment, forced marriages etc.

[Sleepysoul]

Common ladies let us have your honest opinion on the subject. Would you like to share a husband?
GOD bless you.
Peace.

Salam.

Me? Nope! 

[good logic]

Thank you for your post brother Hamzeh.
Like I said to you, me, you or any other man speaking on this subject will not do it justice.
Yes we can give our views but we are not the ones sharing the husbands.

However if one seeks the message of Qoran, knowing that GOD addresses all types of people in it, one needs to follow the best path instructed in it- Ittabiu Ahsana Ma Unzila Ilayikum Min Rabbikum-
Is not the best path to marry one "Wahidatan" for fear of injustice?

Also thanks to all the other members for your views.
GOD bless you.
Peace.