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Offline ibn_a

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74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« on: January 10, 2021, 11:19:11 PM »
Salaam,


Why is iddatahum / their number / their count / their amount fitna / test / trial for those who disbelieve / reject ?

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/default.htm



Offline Athman

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #1 on: January 14, 2021, 09:36:31 PM »
Dear ibn_a,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

The reason behind ‘the count of angels (nineteen - 19)’ being a fitna to the disbelievers is stated in the same passage towards the end of the verse (74:31), that is: thus God leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills. A parable even that of something as tiny as a gnat can be propounded for the sole purpose of: leading many astray and guiding many astray thereby (2:26). It is the character of true believers to accept it as truth from God (2:285) by which they are guided.

On the other hand, those who are 'defiantly disobedient' (fasiqun) will reject (yakfur) even the clearest of signs (2:99), by which they may be deluded further into either speculation of an interpretation - ibtigha-a ta’wil (3:7) or ultimate denial of the same (2:26). In this case, the knowledge (‘ilm) or details surrounding such a ‘designated count’ (iddat) or even God’s agents/ armies (junud) in general is only known to God (74:31). Thus, it is only God who can give a possible interpretation where necessary - wama ya’lamu ta’wilahu illa Allah (3:7).

A similar ‘categorical count’ (iddat) is again mentioned in 69:17 for angels (malaku) who will carry the Throne of the Lord that Day as being eight - 8. As believers (2:26) and those endowed with understanding (ulul albab) 'recollecting upon' the Qur’anic narratives (yadhakkaru), we believe in such a Qur’anic assertion from our Lord (3:7) as certain knowledge an interpretation of which we attribute only to Him (3:7). If in any way it is expressed elsewhere in the Qur’an in some other manner in no unclear terms, then we pursue that as God’s interpretation/ explanation (ta’wila Allah). If not, we steer clear of eliciting finer details and simply accept it as truth the details of which we believe to be within God’s certain knowledge.

In the main, verse 74:31 accesses the real meaning and purpose of a trial (fitna) which by way of awakening the power to exercise volition, has a potential of ascertaining the degree to which a person is good. True believers are expected to accept statements of truth from God (2:185) and as such, they will be tested (yaftanun) to ascertain such a sincere submission to truth (29:2-3). By such a method, 'disbelievers' and those 'diseased at heart' shall be exposed even among those who call themselves believers. However, true believers will accept it as truth from their Lord increasing them their faith while it will ascertain the knowledge of the People of the Book regarding the subject at hand. No doubts shall be harbored in the minds of these two. As such, God would have led astray the one bent on that road (disbelievers and those diseased at heart) while He would have guided the believers and those sincere truth seekers among the People of the Book.

I hope that helps.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #2 on: January 16, 2021, 12:44:27 PM »
Assalamu 3alykum Ibn_a

Not to take away from what brother Ahman has kindly shared I was also in the process of sharing what I think so excuse me both if I overlap some of his points.

I would like to share with you two other verses from the Quran which seem to me in my humble opinion useful in understanding the part of the verse you shared.

2:26 Indeed, Allah is not timid to present an example - that of a mosquito or what is smaller than it. And those who have believed know that it is(the Quran) the truth from their Lord. But as for those who disbelieve, they say, "What did Allah intend by this as an example?" He misleads many thereby and guides many thereby. And He misleads not except the defiantly disobedient

3:7It is He who has sent down to you, [O Muhammad], the Book; in it are verses [that are] clear- they are the foundation of the Book - and the others are unknown/unclear/not comprehendible/cloudy/gloomy. As for those in whose hearts is deviation [from truth], they will follow that of it which is unclear/cloudy, seeking discord and seeking its full interpretation. And no one knows its [true] interpretation except Allah. But those firm in knowledge say, "We believe in it. All [of it] is from our Lord." And no one will be reminded except those of understanding.

First point I would like to make is, its clear from the Quran that there is verses God does not want us to pursue to get a meaning and there is those that is clear. 3:7.

According to the Quran believers are certain the Quran is the word of God and believe in the unseen. By default, automatically they do not question what they have no knowledge of or verses that maybe unclear or out of reach for them. ( This does not mean they do not listen or dismiss critics of such verses). In other words just because verses may not be crystal clear or imaginable to the modern day humans they still believe them even though they cannot be verified.

What I mean by that is, there is verses upon verses in the Quran that humans have no way of verifying if they are true or not. Such verses are those when God send prophets with miracles, Noahs long age, sleepers of the cave etc. Such stories or verses cannot be verifiable with technology or by history. Believers simply rely on the Quran as truth by default even though they are not witnesses to those events. That is because they have accepted the Quran for one reason or another that it is from the Creator of the Worlds and He has knowledge of all things.

In the Quran there are verses not fully understandable from the human perception or at least it cannot be known until God sheds light upon them when He wills if He wills. These could be verses what the Quran considers unclear(mutashibahat) in verse 3:7. For example the hour when it arrives, the time of juj and ma3juj, the verses speaking of the resurrection and the next life, possible aliens in outer space, names of areas locations Tuwa, Judi, teleportation in times of prophet Solomon, the dimensions of the Jinns, Angels etc.

Clear verses will be obvious from unclear verses which the clear(muhkamat) are the foundation of the Quran.

People of the past and people of the present have come to believe in the Qurans veracity and authenticity without the use of any technology or mathematical coding or systems. They simply reflected upon what is being revealed to them in the Quran.

The Quran at times is simply washing away the blindness that us humans have attributed to ourselves. It uncovers the blindfolds off our eyes and encourages and guides us to actually use our faculties to observe, reflect and to really use our eyes and minds. The signs are all around us and have always been there, the Quran simply takes the covers off our eyes. Insha'Allah

That being said, to those that see and have observed they know that the Quran is the truth from their Lord, and when it instructs them to pursue verses they do and when it seems that it does not want them to they dont.

In verse 74:30 number of Guardians is a reference in the next life. Its clear the number is 19.

So therefor the guardians number in verse 74:31 has been made a stumbling-block/confusion/turmoil for those who disbelieve not for the people who believe. This should be noted by the reader. Also another important note is that "fitna" does not always refer to only a trial, but confusion, turmoil, corruption, etc.

Also its not the believers who are asking "what does God mean by this parable?" Its the disbelievers. Asking that question leads one to pursue the interpretation which seems to lead to code 19. So one can safely say that its expected from the believers to not pursue the parable. For a believer its of no concern.

That being said there is no doubt the verse should be pondered and analyzed by believers and read just like any other verse. The caution that needs to be noted  is that the number is a confusion/trial/stumbling-block for the disbelievers. Which further leads to those whos hearts are sick and disbelievers ask about what does God mean by this parable?

The verse tells us that God did not appoint their number "only" that it maybe a trial/confusion to those who disbelieve.

The question as to exactly why their number is a trial/stumbling block/confusion for those who disbelieve? Thats the answer right there. God only mentioned/appointed their fixed number only that it maybe a confusion to those who disbelieve and that seems to be the only reason He mentioned the number of Guardians over it.


The code 19 seems to dismiss 2 verses in the Quran and made them to appear that they have been fabricated and not part of the pure Quran. This is no small matter. There is no evidence of this. This could divide and cause division over 2 verses and put suspicion in peoples mind. From the verses above there seems to be people who have sick hearts and want to cause division/confusion(fitna) and get full interpretation of verses(3:7).

Understanding that, I think anyone would read this verse normally and realize its not something God is asking anyone to ponder, the only ones who ask what is meant by this parable are the ones sick at hearts and disbelievers.

Before the code 19 was ever brought to peoples attention it was probably seen as a unclear(mutashibahat) like the ones mentioned in verse 3:7.

Today, this interpretation of the verse seems to come to light in our generation as to what happened, and it would be deemed a prophecy that only God had known and brought it to light which would increase those who believe and the people of the book in faith. It could also be a possibility to remind believers on what to steer away from and also possibly exposes those whose hearts are ill and want to cause some kind of fitna.

Please do not take my thoughts as if I am pointing at anyone in particular. I know many believers also just heard of the code 19 and they use it as evidence to share with non-believers and they dont even really understand it or where it came from but think its a miracle of the Quran. Im just trying to share what the interpretation of the verse is after I also read about it and found brother Josephs articles about it which I found interesting and I agree with him on this point as well. Please see an article below. 

God tells us that the Quran is protected by Him. From the day it was revealed to the Prophet to the end of times the Quran is under God's guardianship. Not a letter or verse or chapter will be fabricated. This is ultimately a belief when one realizes the Creator is actually the author of the Quran Insha'Allah.


Peace

CODE 19 AND THE REMOVAL OF TWO VERSES FROM THE QURAN - A PROBLEMATIC THEORY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/19%20FM3.htm

Offline ibn_a

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #3 on: January 18, 2021, 11:27:10 PM »
Assalamu alaykum dear Athman and Hamzeh.
Thank you very much for your replies.

Concerning Quran 9 :128-129
I want to clarify that verse 128 and verse 129 of chapter 9 are part of the Quran.

I will comment on your replies later in sha'a Allah.

Offline Athman

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #4 on: January 27, 2021, 02:22:52 PM »
Wa alaikum assalam ibn_a,

You are most welcome.

Dear Hamzeh,

Thanks for your elaborate input with complementary points to what I shared especially the following which goes at the heart of the very question asked.

The question as to exactly why their number is a trial/stumbling block/confusion for those who disbelieve? Thats the answer right there. God only mentioned/appointed their fixed number only that it maybe a confusion to those who disbelieve and that seems to be the only reason He mentioned the number of Guardians over it.”

Athman.

Offline ibn_a

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #5 on: January 28, 2021, 03:43:39 PM »
Salaam


Salaam Athman and Hamzeh,
Thaks for sharing your understanding.

- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

And saqar and number19 (74:26-30) in this context came as a response to the accusation about the Quran, being human words (74:25).

Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

It can be a way to guide or to go astray  kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao  (74:31)  :

Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).


Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


- And of course, that those who believe accept all verses in the Quran.
Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31


See also this verse that seems to refer to a numerical structure of the Quran; 72:28 --> count of everything by number, concerning   "the message of their Lord".

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/72/28/
So as to make manifest that they have conveyed the messages of their Lord. He encompasses what they have, and has counted everything in numbers.


We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.


Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

Quran 2:26 seems like a response to a questioning about what is or not appropriate according to their desire to be given as an example  mada arada Allah bihada mathalan.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UmNgibcL3N0






والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #6 on: January 30, 2021, 06:48:41 AM »
Wa 3alaykum Assalam

Your welcome brother Athman. I do noticed I overlapped your comments for sure.

Brother ibn_a please see my responses to your comments below.

Quote
- I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

Quote
Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.

Quote
Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran. At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup. That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

Quote
Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

Quote
Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

Quote
Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

Quote
We are asked to ponder on verses in order to understand:

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/38/29/
(This is) a Book We have revealed it to you, blessed, that they may ponder (over) its Verses and may be reminded those of understanding.

Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

Quote
Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

Those are my views and comments regarding your kind comments

Salam

Offline Athman

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #7 on: February 02, 2021, 09:32:03 PM »
Dear ibn_a,

Salaam,

Kindly see below my responses to some of your comments the rest of which I find Br. Hamzeh to have quite well responded to.

You wrote:

I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.”

In recognition of such an intimation by the Qur’an in 74:31, I wrote: “By such a method, 'disbelievers' and those 'diseased at heart' shall be exposed even among those who call themselves believers.” This is in agreeing with the Qur’anic recognition that even among those who confessed to have 'believed' among Prophet Muhammad’s (a.s) followers, some were ‘disbelievers.’ See verses 9:54ff attesting to this.

In addition, in your view, you don’t see how a ‘fitna’ arises with the ‘disbelievers’ with regards to the ‘iddatahum’ in 74:31. Firstly, it should be noted that verse 74:31 asserts that the portrayal of ‘their number’ is not for any other purpose but to be a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘reject’ (kafaru). Therefore, if you don’t see it as a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘disbelieve,’ then that is denying a clear Qur’anic verse. I don’t think you intentionally advocate for this.

Secondly, would you please share your view about that part of the verse. It is easier for me to deal with your interpretation of 74:31 with regards the ‘iddat’ being a ‘fitna’ to ‘disbelievers’ rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it is only but a ‘fitna’ to those who disbelieve.

"Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe."

Brother Hamzeh has shared a possible explanation. Again, can you please share yours so that we can deal with that rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it does increase the faith of those who believe.

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

From verse 74:31, there’s nothing that tells one that ‘their number’ (iddatahum - 19) is linked to a structure of the Qur’an nor that it should be extrapolated to some Qur’anic numerology. To me, that sounds like a great questionable leap in assumption into sheer fanaticism with numbers. After all, the verse concludes by asserting that none knows God’s agents/ armies (junud) but God. It still expects our understanding that ‘disbelievers’ will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19 and not them being confused about it (iddat - 19) being established within the Qur’anic structure.

It can be a way to guide or to go astray  kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao  (74:31)

Now this answers your original question which was ‘why’, and it is the same response which I gave as shared by the verse itself. See the first paragraph of my first response. I guess now you are probing into the likelihood of 'how.' Would you please clarify.

As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...

I do concur. However, just because the purpose of the ‘iddatahum’ has been cited in 74:31 does not give us reason to pursue it to an obscure interpretation which is not even hinted in the verse. Similarly, just because the purpose of the ‘numerical figures’ in other verses is not cited for our knowledge does not make it insignificant. We do not however have datum to pursue it anyway though we can easily relate to the message being shared.

See also this verse that seems to refer to a numerical structure of the Quran; 72:28 --> count of everything by number, concerning   "the message of their Lord".”

Respectfully, verse 72:28 does not allude to a numerical structure of the Qur’an per se. God ‘having had tallied everything in numbers’ does not equate to the Qur’an having a numerical structure. The tallying in number (‘adada) as in 72:28 is not necessarily in connection with the Qur’an but with everything in nature having been proportioned in precise measurements/ numbers.

Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I don’t dispute this. I can’t also entirely be sure of the intention of one when they seek to interpret something of ‘ghayb’ (19 angels over 'saqar') hence I can’t judge them either. However, as far as the Qur’anic guidance on this is concerned, I don’t expect a true believer to gloss over its interpretation. Rather, I expect them to accept matters of ‘ghayb’ and remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an.

Quran 2:26 seems like a response to a questioning about what is or not appropriate according to their desire to be given as an example  mada arada Allah bihada mathalan.”

In both verses 2:26 and 74:31, the narratives seem to be presented in context of matters of the Hereafter. While verse 74:31 touches on guards over ‘saqar,’ verse 2:26 in context with verse 2:25 touch on similitudes of the particulars of 'Jannah' with some worldly semblance. Thus, such citations of some particulars of the Hereafter are just made for us to relate given our worldly limitation and not for us to ask “madha arada Allahu bi-hadha mathala.” They are matters of ‘ghayb’ never to be pursued to reach a vivid detailed explanation. They form part of the ‘mutashabihat’ verses to us.

I hope that clarifies.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline ibn_a

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #8 on: February 03, 2021, 10:31:03 PM »

Salaam,

I think we need to understand that disbelievers are not always people who outright admit they do not believe in the Quran. Actually the Quran seems to describe these disbelievers in verse 74:31 as ones who question and read the Quran 74:31 part "and that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: What meaneth Allah by this similitude?".

Also verse 3:7 does not speak highly of people who pursue unclear verses(mutashibahat), which seems like they read and spend time trying to seek a full interpretations and cause corruption or dissension.

Also I have a feeling and excuse me if I'm wrong but the verse is not quite understood the way it should be.

Here is a word for word translation to the best of my knowledge. Try to understand it from a pre code 19 era.

74:31 Wama jaAAalna ashabaa nnari illa mala-ikatan wama jaAAalna AAiddatahum illa fitnatan lillatheenakafaroo...

74:31 And not do We appoint/make the keepers/guardians of the fire(anyone or anything else) ONLY/EXCEPT Angels, and not do We appoint/make their number(known) ONLY/EXCEPT as a trial/confusion to those who disbelieved.

What God is telling us in this verse, in my interpolation is that He does not assign the positions for guardianship/keepers/wardens/guards to the fire to anyone or anything else but only them being Malaikat(Angels who never fail in their commands). And that the ONLY(illa)reason that He The Creator has made their number known to the humans on earth in this life through the Quran that they are 19, is ONLY because to be a confusion/trial/stumbling block to those who disbelieved. Otherwise it seems to point out in my humble opinion it does not serve any other purpose to us now.

I have given my opinion in the previous post as to why. Pre code 19 times, no one would seem to ever understand what God meant by the number being a trial/confusion.

With the span of time this trial/confusion has been apparent. Only God Himself would know that one day this is going to be something people are going to pursue.

Believers have witnessed that no one could of ever known this situation coming to unfold only God. So today we have seen this happen which could only increase ones faith to the All-Knowing. Its another piece of information that leads more to the authenticity of God being the Source of this Quran.


Salaam brother Hamzeh,

See my comment to almost the same argument on another forum:

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be that a group of believers would think that  that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers who  believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran .


One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God, in addition to other facts in the Quran which proofs that it is from God.


It seems that hey don't (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.

74:25 in hādhā illā qawlu l-bashar
74:26  sa-uṣ'līhi saqar
74:27  wamā adrāka mā saqar
74:28  lā tub'qī walā tadhar
74:29  lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:30 alayaha tis'ata ashar

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/25/
So according to logic and in context, this number 19 will disprove that : In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.


And I thik that they missed also the warning: Innaha la-ihda alkubari natheeran lilbashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/




The believers according to the Quran are ones who have believed in the words of the Quran. Its very simple statements that seem to be in harmony with people.

Agree and why would that exclude that the Quran contains for example :
scientific facts, historical facts, linguistic perfection, numerical structure, prophecies ,etc...




I honestly find that spending time focusing on numerical structures to prove the Quran is the word of God is not getting the correct message of the Quran.

(A)  If God made the Quran a numerically structured book, then logique implies that efforts have to be done in order to discover this structure.
 



At times its just taking the words of the person telling the other person that they exist and they are not able to fully verify them as you and I know it takes a tremendous effort and time and its relying on other peoples setup.

There is no need to do this manually, programmes are available and it takes only few clics to verify the correctness.
See this programme for example:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)

http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

See this example:
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2686.msg14716#msg14716

If you know how to use this programme it will take only few minutes to verify.




That me personally. I mean they maybe fascinating and of course its not accidental. This is of course by the will of God. But its not the message. 

Not sure if I understand what you mean by this, but If you say that it is not accidental and by the will of God, then what exactly is it that you are opposing?



Quote
Their number/iddatahum was set only in order to remind   wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31).

I believe the "this"(hiya) is a reference to the Quran being a reminder to humans.

"hiya" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).




Quote
Read further in context "their number/iddatahum" :

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/

There is nothing in these verses that suggest that its referring to their number. Their number was only mentioned in the Quran to be a trial/confusion. These verses could be referring to either the Quran or the future knowledge of this event unfolding.

"innaha" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).




These again some word fall under the unclear verses and some word be clear to us. The word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context.

Agree that the word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context, the point was that we are informed about other numbers and that there seems no purpose assigned to these numbers in contrast to number 19 in the Quran.



Of course, pondering about the verses does not mean using a numerical system that has been assigned by certain letters.

See (A)


I do not agree with this interpolation. The verse is clear that its people whos hearts has perversity seek to pursue the mutashabihat verses(unclear) in order to cause fitna and get the full interpretation/meaning. None knows its(the Qurans) full interpretation only God.

The verse imo is about people with bad intentions not about those who are sincere and ponder  in order to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Quran.

Most commentators of the Quran ponder and try to explain all verses, and if there is a disagreement on the interpretation, it shouldn't be a reason for some to accuse others as ones whos hearts has perversity.


Thanks for your comments.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #9 on: February 08, 2021, 03:46:15 PM »
Wa 3alykum assalam brother Ibn_a

Please see by responses to your comments

Quote
See my comment to almost the same argument on another forum:

Some of those who do not believe in a numerical structure, see 74:30-31 as a Prohecy i.e.

The reason for revealing this number 19 would be that a group of believers would think that  that there is a numerical structure in the Quran.(that actually wouldn't be there??? ) and the purpose would be:
that other groups will increase their faith and have no doubt, by observing the group of believers who  believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran .


One of the problems with this understanding is that  they categorize those who believe that there is a numerical structure (and of course believe) in the Quran, as:

"those who disbelieve / reject / alladhiena kafaru."

Which doesn't make sense of course, and in contradiction with the Quran, because those who believe that there is a numerical structure in the Quran are not disbelievers, as their aim is to prove that the Quran is a numerically preseved book by God, in addition to other facts in the Quran which proofs that it is from God.

Its quite simple brother, its not about there is or is not a numerical structure. The reason why I believe it increases the believers in faith is that the trial/fitna has come to be fulfilled. Believing in the numerical structure being there or not is another topic.

Quote
It seems that hey don't (want to) read in context, that is why I thik that they missed the reason for mentioning this number 19 as a response to:

In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being.

If the evidence to those who question the Qurans authenticity being from God and not a human, is the miracle of the number 19, then I would like to just remind you that the number 19 numerical system of Rashid Khalifa only came to being in the last little while.

So therefor by your reasoning anyone who doubted the Quran's authenticity seems to have a valid excuse before Rashid Khalifa came out with the numerical system.

So for approx 1400 years the Holy Quran did not provide the evidence or a response to those who said "In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being." ? I find that it always had the proof that it was the word of the Creator.

Quote
Not sure if I understand what you mean by this, but If you say that it is not accidental and by the will of God, then what exactly is it that you are opposing?

What I'm saying is that God knows exactly what He sent down to humans of course. He knows every outcome where you assign Alif the number 1 or the number 28 He knows what kind of fascinating outcomes that can be derived from the Quran. This is no accident and He knows the number of words contained in the Book and whether you add them all or multiply them by any specific number He knows the conclusion and what we humans can find out.

This is what I mean its no accident.

But the thing is did God give the license to anyone to assign such numbers to letters and try to formulate a conclusion and thats even if there even is a sound conclusion to it?

It also came to my attention from other articles on the web that at times the methods are not consistent and accurate. To be honest I am not going to try to see if its true or not but there has been an article and I think the only article I read about this which seems to expose the inconsistency in Rashids Khalifas own strategy. Im sure there is advocates and critics to his works but that is not my concern.


Quote
"hiya" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Its true, but its also not referring to the numeric system, but seems to be referring to the actual trial/fitna that has been noticed.

So the fitna/trial(that has come to appear in our time) is a reminder to the human.

Quote
"innaha" (feminine) cannot refer to "the Quran"(masculine ).

Thats why I mentioned that it also could be indicating to the event that has unfolded. Which is the trial that came to appear in our time.

Quote
Agree that the word "saba'3a" seven also means several in certain context, the point was that we are informed about other numbers and that there seems no purpose assigned to these numbers in contrast to number 19 in the Quran.

But in the verse 74:31 there is a caution that only those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers are the ones who ask a question regarding the verse which was pre code 19 times. So one would need to steer away from asking the question in this instance regarding 19 especially when the trial is for the disbelievers.

Quote
The verse imo is about people with bad intentions not about those who are sincere and ponder  in order to gain knowledge and wisdom from the Quran.

Most commentators of the Quran ponder and try to explain all verses, and if there is a disagreement on the interpretation, it shouldn't be a reason for some to accuse others as ones whos hearts has perversity.

Brother Im just interpreting the verse 3:7. God Himself is exposing who those who are not sincere are. Not me as I do not have that knowledge. All I know is that there is verses in the Quran that none knows their full interpretation except God. Also there is people who will try to pursue unclear verses. Pursue means to explain in great detail and try to get a clear picture and explanation. Pondering verses is fine but one also needs to realize when its not possible to understand the full meaning.

Also I'm not accusing anyone to having perversity in their hearts, God is the One who is telling the reader of the Quran that the hearts of those who seek such verses have perversity. This is a hint for the reader in order to know when one needs to steer clear from such people trying to explain unclear verses. 

God is giving people information on something that happen. There are verses in the Quran that God tells us are clearly "mutashibihat"(unclear).

There is people whose hearts have perversity they pursue the unclear mutashibihat. They seek two things 1. fitna(discord), 2. taweel(full explanation).

No one knows the full interpretation/explanation(taweel) except God.

God knows best the intentions and God knows best all things.

Salam

Offline ibn_a

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #10 on: February 22, 2021, 11:49:02 PM »
Salaam,




You wrote:

I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve, I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.”

In recognition of such an intimation by the Qur’an in 74:31, I wrote: “By such a method, 'disbelievers' and those 'diseased at heart' shall be exposed even among those who call themselves believers.” This is in agreeing with the Qur’anic recognition that even among those who confessed to have 'believed' among Prophet Muhammad’s (a.s) followers, some were ‘disbelievers.’ See verses 9:54ff attesting to this.


Salaam dear Athman,

Not sure how you compare those who believe in the numerical structure of the Quran to  people who disbelieve in Allah and his messenger(pbuh)  / kafaru bi Allah wa rasulihi (Quran 9:54)

Why would someone who disbelieve want to proof that the Quran is a numerical structured preserved book of God?



In addition, in your view, you don’t see how a ‘fitna’ arises with the ‘disbelievers’ with regards to the ‘iddatahum’ in 74:31. Firstly, it should be noted that verse 74:31 asserts that the portrayal of ‘their number’ is not for any other purpose but to be a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘reject’ (kafaru). Therefore, if you don’t see it as a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘disbelieve,’ then that is denying a clear Qur’anic verse. I don’t think you intentionally advocate for this.


Yes it is a fitna for those who disbelieve that the Quran is from God, the question is about why/ how Their number/iddatahum is a fitna for/ disturbs those who disbelieve?

It seems you have answerd the question.

Not sure how you came to the asumption that interpreting a verse = denying a verse.

Even if the interpretation could be wrong.


Secondly, would you please share your view about that part of the verse. It is easier for me to deal with your interpretation of 74:31 with regards the ‘iddat’ being a ‘fitna’ to ‘disbelievers’ rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it is only but a ‘fitna’ to those who disbelieve.


The ja3l/ making of their number/iddatahum is not restricted to those who disbelieve,  it is the fitna that is only for those who disbelieve.

For other categorie of people it has other purposes:

- certaintyf for those who were given the Book.
- increase in faith for those who believe.
- no doubts for those who were given the Book and the believers.
- that those in whose hearts there is disease, and disbelievers, may say: what does God mean by this example?



"Nor do I see how the information about their number does increase the faith of those who believe."

Brother Hamzeh has shared a possible explanation. Again, can you please share yours so that we can deal with that rather than defending the clear assertion in the verse that it does increase the faith of those who believe.


I would think that this was clear when i said:

Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.




Unless their number/iddatahum  refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe.

From verse 74:31, there’s nothing that tells one that ‘their number’ (iddatahum - 19) is linked to a structure of the Qur’an nor that it should be extrapolated to some Qur’anic numerology. To me, that sounds like a great questionable leap in assumption into sheer fanaticism with numbers. After all, the verse concludes by asserting that none knows God’s agents/ armies (junud) but God. It still expects our understanding that ‘disbelievers’ will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19 and not them being confused about it (iddat - 19) being established within the Qur’anic structure.


In my understanding it makes more sense being related to the numerical structure of the Quran in addition of the number of angels guarding hell being 19  rather than that what bothers those who disbelieve is just because the number of angels guarding hell is 19


It can be a way to guide or to go astray  kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao  (74:31)

Now this answers your original question which was ‘why’, and it is the same response which I gave as shared by the verse itself. See the first paragraph of my first response. I guess now you are probing into the likelihood of 'how.' Would you please clarify.


When those who disbelieve are exposed to the the numerical structure of the Quran,
they either consider this and it could be a way to be guided or they discard it and it could be a way to go astray.

kathalika yudillu Allahu man yashao wayahdee man yashao (74:31)”



As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...

I do concur. However, just because the purpose of the ‘iddatahum’ has been cited in 74:31 does not give us reason to pursue it to an obscure interpretation which is not even hinted in the verse. Similarly, just because the purpose of the ‘numerical figures’ in other verses is not cited for our knowledge does not make it insignificant. We do not however have datum to pursue it anyway though we can easily relate to the message being shared.


Biside there being 19 angels guarding hell, a purpose was assigned to this number
jalnaa iddatahum /made their number

Nowhere did I say that it is 'insignificant'.

Here is what i said:

Quote

- And of course, that those who believe accept all verses in the Quran.
Concering other numbers for example:

* 6   peroiode of creation (first time mentioned -> 7:54 )
* 7   samawaat (first time mentioned  -> 2:29 )
* 7  gates of jahannam  ( 15:44 )
* 8  in charge of ( yahmilu ) archa rabbika  ( 69:17 )
* etc..

As believers in the Quran, we accept this information, but there is no other purose mentioned for these numbers like in Quran 74:31  and We have made their number... / wama ja'alna iddatahum...
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31





See also this verse that seems to refer to a numerical structure of the Quran; 72:28 --> count of everything by number, concerning   "the message of their Lord".”

Respectfully, verse 72:28 does not allude to a numerical structure of the Qur’an per se. God ‘having had tallied everything in numbers’ does not equate to the Qur’an having a numerical structure. The tallying in number (‘adada) as in 72:28 is not necessarily in connection with the Qur’an but with everything in nature having been proportioned in precise measurements/ numbers.


There is no reason to exclude the Quran from this, especially when the context is about "the message of their Lord".



Quran 3:7 seems about bad intention ibtigha alfitna and lack of objectivity and desire fi quluobihim zaygun about the mutashabihaat verses

I don’t dispute this. I can’t also entirely be sure of the intention of one when they seek to interpret something of ‘ghayb’ (19 angels over 'saqar') hence I can’t judge them either. However, as far as the Qur’anic guidance on this is concerned, I don’t expect a true believer to gloss over its interpretation. Rather, I expect them to accept matters of ‘ghayb’ and remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an.


I do not see how you came to the conclusion that interpreting a verse = not accepting matters of ghayb.

Why didn't you remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an i.e.
(19 angels over 'saqar') rather than explaining that it exposes the disbelievers etc...



Quran 2:26 seems like a response to a questioning about what is or not appropriate according to their desire to be given as an example  mada arada Allah bihada mathalan.”

In both verses 2:26 and 74:31, the narratives seem to be presented in context of matters of the Hereafter. While verse 74:31 touches on guards over ‘saqar,’ verse 2:26 in context with verse 2:25 touch on similitudes of the particulars of 'Jannah' with some worldly semblance. Thus, such citations of some particulars of the Hereafter are just made for us to relate given our worldly limitation and not for us to ask “madha arada Allahu bi-hadha mathala.” They are matters of ‘ghayb’ never to be pursued to reach a vivid detailed explanation. They form part of the ‘mutashabihat’ verses to us.


From your replies you seem to know and explain why their number/ iddatahum is a fitna for those who disbelieve and it seems also that you have identified those who disbelieve/alladhiena kafaru and explained why it/what increases the faith of those who believe and leave no doubt and cerainty for the People of the Book and the believers.

But when you say that 74:31 is a mutashabihaat verse and not to be pursued, then it would be more logical to abstain from trying to explain this verse, as you cannot be sure about your explanation nor can you be sure that explanation of others are wrong.


In order not to fall in repeating the same arguments and endless debating, please see here my conclusion:

1) it is a "mutashabihaat" verse and we don't know its interpretation, trying to interprete it would be considerd as asking mada arada Allah bi hada mathalan/what does God intended by this example and exposes one in whose hearts is a disease or disbeliever.


2) it is a prophecy i.e.
"some muslims/believers will think that there is a numerical structure in the Quran but in fact it is a fitna/trial for them, so they will be exposed as  those who disbelieve/ fitnaten li alladiena kafaru."(A)

And this (A) will increase the faith of those who believe, and will cause certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind:

wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31)

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


3) It refers to the numerical structure of the Quran and it is a fitna for/disturbs/ confuses those who disbelieve/ (i.e those who reject that  Quran is the word of God).

And  the numerical structure of the Quran will increase the faith of those who believe, and certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind.(74:31)

And a great one/signe.(74:35)

A warninig to mankind.(74:36)


- In my opinion 3) makes most sense, and of course to each their own understanding.

Peace and best wishes.



والله اعلم
Allah knows best.



Offline ibn_a

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #11 on: February 23, 2021, 12:18:32 AM »
Salaam brother Hamzeh,



Its quite simple brother, its not about there is or is not a numerical structure. The reason why I believe it increases the believers in faith is that the trial/fitna has come to be fulfilled. Believing in the numerical structure being there or not is another topic.

 You are right if there is no numerical structure in the Quran,  and wrong if there is a  numerical structure in the Quran.





If the evidence to those who question the Qurans authenticity being from God and not a human, is the miracle of the number 19, then I would like to just remind you that the number 19 numerical system of Rashid Khalifa only came to being in the last little while.

So therefor by your reasoning anyone who doubted the Quran's authenticity seems to have a valid excuse before Rashid Khalifa came out with the numerical system.

So for approx 1400 years the Holy Quran did not provide the evidence or a response to those who said "In hatha illa qawlu albashar/Not (is) this but (the) word (of) a human being." ? I find that it always had the proof that it was the word of the Creator.

Still the context is there:
74:25 in hādhā illā qawlu l-bashar
74:26  sa-uṣ'līhi saqar
74:27  wamā adrāka mā saqar
74:28  lā tub'qī walā tadhar
74:29  lawwāḥatun lil'bashar
74:30 alayaha tis'ata ashar

Quran is timeless and it is an additional proof not the only proof just like for example :

scientific facts, historical facts, linguistic perfection, logical arguments, prophecies ,etc...




What I'm saying is that God knows exactly what He sent down to humans of course. He knows every outcome where you assign Alif the number 1 or the number 28 He knows what kind of fascinating outcomes that can be derived from the Quran. This is no accident and He knows the number of words contained in the Book and whether you add them all or multiply them by any specific number He knows the conclusion and what we humans can find out.

This is what I mean its no accident.

But the thing is did God give the license to anyone to assign such numbers to letters and try to formulate a conclusion and thats even if there even is a sound conclusion to it?

It also came to my attention from other articles on the web that at times the methods are not consistent and accurate. To be honest I am not going to try to see if its true or not but there has been an article and I think the only article I read about this which seems to expose the inconsistency in Rashids Khalifas own strategy. Im sure there is advocates and critics to his works but that is not my concern.



If God made the Quran a  numerical structured book  then He knows what methodes people will use to discover this structure and the results will prove which methods is/are correct.

Some examples of observable facts, no need to assign numbers to the letters:

(if some do not understand these examples or think that it is all coincidence and not  an intended strucure, it is there choice.)

The Quran clearly mentioned this number 19 in chapter 74 verse 30 as a response to the claim " Human words 74: 25"

note: 74: 30 alayha tisata ashar   ---  عليها تسعه عشر

19 letters not used from the Arabic alphabet
30 is the 19 th composite number!

-The Quran has 114 chapters : 114 = 19 x 6.


-The basmala has 19 letters.

بسم الله الرحمن الرحيم

-The Basmalah occurs 114 times, despite its absence in chapter 9 it occurs twice in chapter 27


- From the missing Basmalah in chapter 9 to the inside Basmalah in chapter 27, there are 19 chapters


- Number 9 is mentioned in two verses in chapter 27, each at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah (Number 9 is mentioned only 4 times in the Quran, so it is very unlikely that the location of these two occurrences of number 9 in chapter 27 at a 19- verse distance from the inside basmalah are the result of a coincidence)


-The 19 th chapter from the end of the Quran has 19 verses.


-The Quran uses 77 different numbers for the  total verses of the chapters :


From largest to smallest, chapter 19 ( 98 verses) is the 19 th:

286 -- 227 -- 206 -- 200 -- 182 -- 176 -- 165 -- 135 -- 129 -- 128 -- 123 -- 120 -- 118 -- 112 -- 111 -- 110 -- 109 -- 99 -- 98 -- 96 -- 93 -- 89 -- 88 -- 85 -- 83 -- 78 -- 77 --  75 -- 73 -- 69 -- 64 -- 62 -- 60 -- 59 -- 56 -- 55 -- 54 -- 53 -- 52 -- 50 -- 49 -- 46 -- 45 -- 44 -- 43 -- 42 -- 40 -- 38 -- 37 -- 36 -- 35 -- 34 -- 31 -- 30 -- 29 -- 28 -- 26 -- 25 -- 24 --  22 -- 21 -- 20 -- 19 --18 -- 17 -- 15 -- 14 -- 13 -- 12 -- 11 -- 9 -- 8 -- 7 -- 6 -- 5 -- 4 -- 3


- There is only one chapter (and it is also the only verse) in the Quran that ends with the name " Allah " , this chapter has 19 verses


- And this is the 19 th occurrence of the name" Allah " from the end of the Quran.


-The Quran mentions 30 different whole numbers:

1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9

10 11 12 19 20 30 40 50 60 70 80 99

100 200 300

1000 2000 3000 5000 50000 100000



The sum of these numbers = 162146 = 19 x 8534.
 30 numbers --->  30 is the 19 th composite number.


Salaam,


Some interesting observations about the Basmalah, the 114 chapters of the Quran
and the position of the chapters (with initial letters) in the Quran, considering the indication in 74:30-31 and 72:28












































Source:

The software to count verses , words and letters,....( Arabic)
http://www.kaheel7.com/ar/index.php/...07-03-19-11-02
or
https://drive.google.com/file/d/0B9o...RGYS1ORlk/view

-Quran : Uthmani Script.

http://www.alargam.com/prove2/burhan3/6.htm
http://www.alargam.com/


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

More examples here:

The numerical-semantical structure of the Quran.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2686.0


- Rashad Khalifa rejecting 9:128-129  is in condradiction with the Quran.

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/15/9/default.htm

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/41/42/

Some of his results contains errors and exaggerations, but some of his results are correct.







Its true, but its also not referring to the numeric system, but seems to be referring to the actual trial/fitna that has been noticed.

So the fitna/trial(that has come to appear in our time) is a reminder to the human.


Thats why I mentioned that it also could be indicating to the event that has unfolded. Which is the trial that came to appear in our time.


Of course it is a fitna/trial for those who disbelieve, so it cannot refer to muslims / believers even if they believe that the Quran is a numerical structured book.




But in the verse 74:31 there is a caution that only those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers are the ones who ask a question regarding the verse which was pre code 19 times. So one would need to steer away from asking the question in this instance regarding 19 especially when the trial is for the disbelievers.


Brother Im just interpreting the verse 3:7. God Himself is exposing who those who are not sincere are. Not me as I do not have that knowledge. All I know is that there is verses in the Quran that none knows their full interpretation except God. Also there is people who will try to pursue unclear verses. Pursue means to explain in great detail and try to get a clear picture and explanation. Pondering verses is fine but one also needs to realize when its not possible to understand the full meaning.

Also I'm not accusing anyone to having perversity in their hearts, God is the One who is telling the reader of the Quran that the hearts of those who seek such verses have perversity. This is a hint for the reader in order to know when one needs to steer clear from such people trying to explain unclear verses.

God is giving people information on something that happen. There are verses in the Quran that God tells us are clearly "mutashibihat"(unclear).

There is people whose hearts have perversity they pursue the unclear mutashibihat. They seek two things 1. fitna(discord), 2. taweel(full explanation).

No one knows the full interpretation/explanation(taweel) except God.

God knows best the intentions and God knows best all things.

3:7 is not about tying to understand verses is about people with bad intentions not someone who may intrprete a verse in an erroneous way.

We should not attribute our understanding to God, as our understanding could be wrong.

From your replies you seem to know and explain why their number/ iddatahum is a fitna for those who disbelieve and it seems also that you have identified those who disbelieve/alladhiena kafaru and explained why it/what increases the faith of those who believe and leave no doubt and cerainty for the People of the Book and the believers.

But when you say that 74:31 is a mutashabihaat verse and not to be pursued, then it would be more logical to abstain from trying to explain this verse, as you cannot be sure about your explanation nor can you be sure that explanation of others are wrong.


In order not to fall in repeating the same arguments and endless debating, please see here my conclusion:

1) it is a "mutashabihaat" verse and we don't know its interpretation, trying to interprete it would be considerd as asking mada arada Allah bi hada mathalan/what does God intended by this example and exposes one in whose hearts is a disease or disbeliever.


2) it is a prophecy i.e.
"some muslims/believers will think that there is a numerical structure in the Quran but in fact it is a fitna/trial for them, so they will be exposed as  those who disbelieve/ fitnaten li alladiena kafaru."(A)

And this (A) will increase the faith of those who believe, and will cause certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind:

wama hya illa dikra lilbashar (74:31)

https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/31/

74:35 Surely, it is one of the greatest / innahā la-iḥ'dā l-kubar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/35/


74:36   A warning to mankind /nadhīran lil'bashar
https://www.islamawakened.com/quran/74/36/


3) It refers to the numerical structure of the Quran and it is a fitna for/disturbs/ confuses those who disbelieve/ (i.e those who reject that  Quran is the word of God).

And  the numerical structure of the Quran will increase the faith of those who believe, and certainty  and no doubt for those who were given the Book and the believers.

And this is but a reminder for mankind.(74:31)

And a great one/signe.(74:35)

A warninig to mankind.(74:36)


- In my opinion 3) makes most sense, and of course to each their own understanding.

Peace and best wishes.


والله اعلم
Allah knows best.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #12 on: February 23, 2021, 07:18:09 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum brother Ibn_a

Thank you for your replies

I want to clarify a point.

I am not saying that the verses of the Quran should not be interpreted. Of course that is not what the Quran says.

What I am saying is that verses that are not clear in the sense that they are beyond human capacity should not be pursued to get an actual human perception especially when humans can only vision this realm of their life. God tells us about the Hour. This does not mean that we cannot interpret the verses regarding the Hour but since it has not arrived we cannot put a clear picture of the events in the moment. We can only interpret and read the verses the way they are. The Hour depends heavily upon the heavens and and Earth. It will happen suddenly for example 7:187. To try to figure how this is going to happen and the causes and effects as I've seen some try to put the event together from scientific points of view in my humble opinion is unwarranted.  These I would consider unclear verses. But we still understand and interpret the verse.This is noted in 3:7. The word "taweel" means a full comprehension and understanding of the matter. Of course the Quran verifies these are only some verses.

For example we know from the Quran that the hearing and the sight and the skins are going to speak

An example of the term is used when prophet Joseph had seen the event of his dream actually unfold in front of his eyes to understand and comprehend what the vision actually meant. 12:100.

Therefor what I mean is that any verses that have to do with the hereafter should be viewed as mutashabihat. That the actual perception is not in the scope of the human capacity. When God tell us that "over it are nineteen" it is just that.

We will never be able to understand it fully to get a clear perception.

Further God says that "...we did not appoint their number only as a trial/confusion/stumbling block to those who disbelieved"...

And further yes that it also serves to increase the believers in faith and further more.

The question is who are the disbelievers? I incline to look at this pre code 19 times. If you read this verse before this event unfolded who would be the ones who try to discover or look for an answer to this parable/example?

Is it not the ones who say "what does God mean by this example?"

Yes it is as its stated in the same verse. So the only way to come up with a mathematical code system is you would have to ask that question and pursue the number.

It's the question that is asked that pushes one to investigate the meaning which according to the verse its those who have a disease in their hearts and the disbelievers.

Also note that I am not saying that anyone who has accepted the code 19 as being a mathematical system is a disbeliever as I have no right to of course and that is not also what I think. It seems like from the verse is there is people who have attempted to ask the question and pursued that investigation who are the ones who have the disease in their hearts and the disbelievers which also correlates to verse 3:7. Also I don't know who they are and I'm not pointing at anyone in particular.

Just imagine we lived 100 years before this time. How would you look at this verse?

Are you going to attempt to ask that question? And why if you are going to?

Now look at it again now in the present. Do you notice that this trial has been accomplished?

It doesn't matter if you notice that the code is there or not. No one is disputing that the equations or answers to the divisions or multiplications of the numbers are not correct. They may very well be true. People have chosen to pick and choose what they want to show as proof that there is a mathematical code with certain numbers and where to start and where to end.

The message and miracle and proof is in the arguments and words of the Almighty God.

With peace and blessings Insha'Allah

Hamzeh

Offline Athman

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Re: 74:31 Why is iddatahum a fitna for those who disbelieve?
« Reply #13 on: February 24, 2021, 02:40:37 AM »
Dear ibn_a,

Salaam,

Kindly see below my responses to your comments in purple:

You wrote:

"Not sure how you compare those who believe in the numerical structure of the Quran to  people who disbelieve in Allah and his messenger(pbuh)  / kafaru bi Allah wa rasulihi (Quran 9:54)"

Dear brother, you are simply misrepresenting my position. Respectfully, I am not comparing any specific groups here. I simply responded to your concern which I re-quote here part of it: “…I don't think that those who disbelieve bother at all about their number, be it 19 or whatever number as they do not believe that the Quran is from God.” In response, I cited verse 9:54 which is a Qur’anic assertion that among those who confessed to have 'believed' from Prophet Muhammad’s (a.s) followers, some were actually ‘disbelievers.’ To elaborate and as food for thought, why would those who ‘kafaru billahi wa birasulihiapproach prayer (ya’tuna swalata) in whatever manner? Why would they give charity (yunfiquna)? Why would they swear to be part of the Prophet’s followers (9:56)? Why would they criticize the Prophet with regards charity (sadaqah) - 9:58? The only answer to all these questions as clearly depicted by the context is that they were part of the Prophet’s congregation as professing believers.

"Not sure how you came to the asumption that interpreting a verse = denying a verse."

You are again misrepresenting what I wrote. I wrote “…if you don’t see it as a ‘fitna’ to those who ‘disbelieve,’ then that is denying a clear Qur’anic verse.” That was simply reproducing your own statement which I re-quote: “I do not see how being informed about their number/iddatahum would be a fitna /trial/confusion/test for those who disbelieve.”

"Even if the interpretation could be wrong."

I respectfully don’t find it a case of interpretation rather one where there’s a clear conditional denial of an assertion by the Qur’an.

"I would think that this was clear when i said:

Unless their number/iddatahum refers to a numerical structure of the Quran which disturbs / confuses those who disbelieve and increases the faith of those who believe."


I repeat: “From verse 74:31, there’s nothing that tells one that ‘their number’ (iddatahum - 19) is linked to a structure of the Qur’an nor that it should be extrapolated to some Qur’anic numerology. To me, that sounds like a great questionable leap in assumption into sheer fanaticism with numbers. After all, the verse concludes by asserting that none knows God’s agents/ armies (junud) but God. It still expects our understanding that ‘disbelievers’ will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19 and not them being confused about it (iddat - 19) being established within the Qur’anic structure.”

"In my understanding it makes more sense being related to the numerical structure of the Quran in addition of the number of angels guarding hell being 19  rather than that what bothers those who disbelieve is just because the number of angels guarding hell is 19"

I entirely don’t agree with this approach. I can’t bet the truth or clarity of the message of a particular Qur’anic verse on simply personal sense-making based on an obscure extrapolation of an isolated Qur’anic phrase. How is the leap made from ‘over it (hell) are nineteen (angels)’ to ‘numerical structure of the Quran’ just so that a verse makes sense? Wouldn’t such an approach sanction freedom to the reader of the Qur’an to find any sense-making interpretation despite whether it is even hinted in context? Of course, disbelievers will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19. This appears to be the expectation in verse 74:31 as it is asserted that none knows God’s agents/ armies (junud) but God. Whether you are ready to accept this as the verse's expectation is a prerogative of yours.

"When those who disbelieve are exposed to the the numerical structure of the Quran,
they either consider this and it could be a way to be guided or they discard it and it could be a way to go astray."

Respectfully, there’s no such elaboration in verse 74:31 of disbelievers going astray or them being guided aright by discarding or pursuing the notion of an alleged Qur’anic ‘numerical structure’ respectively. The term ‘kadhalika’ translates to ‘thus/ that way’ which alludes to a preceding exemplary scenario. From the foregoing narrative of verse 74:31, it is clear that true believers and those among people of the Book shall be guided harboring no doubts having been strengthened in belief and having attained certainty respectively. It is also clear that ‘those in whose hearts is disease’ and ‘disbelievers’ shall go astray by seeking to delve into the parable of ‘nineteen (19) angels over saqar’ asking why it is propounded. Thus, God leads astray whom He wills and guides whom He wills.

"Biside there being 19 angels guarding hell, a purpose was assigned to this number
jalnaa iddatahum /made their number

Nowhere did I say that it is 'insignificant'."

Nor did I say that you said it is insignificant. You again miss the point. In my opinion, pursuing an interpretation of 74:31 just because a reason for the citation of the parable has been cited simply portrays a great significance held to that parable by the one pursuing it. Otherwise, I would expect an individual to also pursue other parables cited in other verses regardless if a reason has been cited. Not doing so pronounces such parables insignificant in comparison to that of 74:31 in my opinion. Appealing to a cited reason in 74:31 is still inconclusive. As I have remarked: we do not however have datum to pursue it though we can easily relate to the message being shared in each of those parables cited.

"There is no reason to exclude the Quran from this, especially when the context is about "the message of their Lord"."

I didn’t exclude the Qur’an. The term ‘everything’ includes the Qur’an, the Gospel, the Torah, the Ketuvim and all possible Scriptures of God. It excludes none of God's creation. Rather, in your perspective, why should we single out the pursuit specifically on the Qur’an based on an isolated interpretation of verse 74:31?

"I do not see how you came to the conclusion that interpreting a verse = not accepting matters of ghayb."

Respectfully, you appear to consistently misrepresent my comments. If you won't mind, can you please show me where I made such an equation. I repeat: “I don’t expect a true believer to gloss over its interpretation. Rather, I expect them to accept matters of ‘ghayb’ and remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an.”

"Why didn't you remain content with the level of detail shared by the Qur’an i.e.
(19 angels over 'saqar') rather than explaining that it exposes the disbelievers etc..."


Respectfully, I didn’t explain anything. If you can’t simply accept what verse 74:31 alludes to with regards leading those ‘diseased at heart’ and ‘disbelievers’ astray hence exposing them among professing believers as also ratified by 9:84ff then I don’t think you can accept any view that negates your position regardless if it is derived within context.

"From your replies you seem to know and explain why their number/ iddatahum is a fitna for those who disbelieve”

With all due respect, I didn’t explain anything beyond what I find as my sticking to the context of the verse and the message clearly imparted. As to why ‘iddatahum’ is a fitna to the disbelievers, yes, I know the reason. I repeat: the phrase ‘kadhalika yudhwilu Allahu man yashau wayahdi man yasha’ answers your original question which was ‘why’ and it is the same response which I gave as shared by the verse itself.

“and it seems also that you have identified those who disbelieve/alladhiena kafaru and explained why it/what increases the faith of those who believe and leave no doubt and cerainty for the People of the Book and the believers.”

I repeat: “I didn’t explain anything beyond what I find as my sticking to the context of the verse and the message clearly imparted.” In context of the verse, yes, I did identify those in whose hearts is a disease or disbelievers to be those who will fuss around this ‘designated figure’ of angels guarding ‘saqar’ being 19 as expected by the verse itself. It is purely an expectation within context - no extrapolation.

"But when you say that 74:31 is a mutashabihaat verse and not to be pursued, then it would be more logical to abstain from trying to explain this verse, as you cannot be sure about your explanation nor can you be sure that explanation of others are wrong."

Dear brother, I repeat: “I didn’t explain anything beyond what I find as my sticking to the context of the verse and the message clearly imparted.” It is as if you see what I do not intend to pass across as a sentiment. To reiterate, such citations of some particulars of the Hereafter (e.g, 19 angels over saqar) form part of the ‘mutashabihat’ verses to us since they are matters of ‘ghayb’ never to be pursued to reach a vivid detailed explanation. To stay true to the message, I didn’t explain the 19 angels over saqar nor did I pursue any explanation but rather accepted it as knowledge the details of which remain within God’s reach as asserted by the verse itself.

"In my opinion 3) makes most sense, and of course to each their own understanding."

I don’t have any problem with what you personally believe nor what you are ready to accept as truth. To be precise, I simply responded to your original question which I recognize that you have acknowledged. It is you who brought the notion of ‘over it are nineteen’ as being related to a numerical structure of the Qur’an. I also observe that you have misrepresented or rather misconstrued many of my previous comments to yours. Kindly do take your time to understand what is being shared before responding.

I hope that clarifies my position.

Regards,
Athman.