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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Salaat Timings
« on: July 04, 2012, 09:15:20 AM »

Assalam Bros. While the following  post appeared in a different forum but nobody replied as most of them  are not Pro- Salaat.May I request this Forum to please post their replies? Thanks



ADear Sir,

Salaat as ritual cannot be held at specific time . It can only be held on specific time in certain (equator) region but not in all hemispheres ( i.e Polar region) . If we base salaat ritual on Sunrise and Sunset ( day and night which is measure of time when there were no clocks ) then this application for salaat timing is not practical in Polar region. Salaat may be overall concept for Divine system including so called Namaaz ( ritual practice) can be held in Middle East or nearby region and not in Norther/Southern/Polar region. Thus salaat cannot be time-bound instructions from Allah who is Creator / maintainer of whole creation and not only Middle Eastern people.

Either Qur'an is ordained for certain people of specific region who are suppose to propagate faithfully to whole humanity its spiritual message or it is Furqan ordained for whole humanity with no ritualistic sense but metaphorically. It has high spiritual meaning to be grasped who believe in Allah, judgement day and endowed with knowledge. Salaat in the morning may mean to have for remembrance of Allah prior proceeding in search of Allah's bounty ( as per His divine instructions at the start of the day). Again thanking of Allah in accordance with his divine instructions at the end of the day for his blessings and preparing for commitment of night with family.

How specific timing we can think of when Human ( including Muslims) will settle in near future in their scientific lab or working in satellite station in sky which may require rotate around the earth few circles in day!!!!! He will come across multiple sunrise/set in a day. Hence either salaat is not ritual to be performed on specific time ( as ordained in Quran) but system to be implemented for righteousness by individual based on reason and signs for betterment of humanity.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #1 on: July 05, 2012, 09:20:57 PM »
Salamun Alaikum brother Sardar,

I note the comments shared in your post.

It is to be appreciated that the Quran was not primarily addressing a community from the polar region. For example, when the Quran provides similitudes of heaven it often talks about shades, fountains, rivers with a sense of 'coolness' that would be most alluring to the scorching heat afflicted desert Arabs. However, this 'coolness' would be meaningless to people from the polar region who long for heat!

Similarly, green coloured silk robes with gold embroidery (18:31) would be least alluring to many modern cultures today who have a different sense of fashion.

The primary audience of the Quran and their conditions must be appreciated.

The salaat of the Quran is based on 'periods of the day' not on minutes and seconds. There were no digital clocks in 7th century Arabia in the desert. These periods of the day have been clearly highlighted by the Quran.  [1]

The Quranic style is also to converse with humankind in general and not to deal with every perceivable anomaly that could ever exist.  It is unlikely that the majority of mankind will leave luscious green lands where the earth provides in abundance and go and find habitation on the polar tips of the planet or in capsules orbiting space. Humans naturally gravitate towards land that gives them respite.

With respect, I find Quranic arguments that are simply based on the premise that X cannot mean Y because we have isolated cases of Z unacceptable.

This would be no different from saying that the Quran cannot mean ‘bowing’ in salat when it uses the word 'ruku' simply because there are people that are handicapped and cannot bow down.

Where there are anomalies such as isolated places where there are long periods / continuous days or nights where fasting / prayers can become very difficult / impossible, then it is arguable that sensible judgments can be made. It is important to remember that the purpose of religion is not to make things difficult (harj - 22:78) for humans. It is the spirit and intention of an action which always takes precedent.

Our only responsibility is to do the best we can (istata'a - 64:16) from the best we hear (39:18)

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph.


[1] THE FIVE PRAYERS FROM THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20five%20prayers%20from%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline chadiga

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #2 on: July 05, 2012, 11:08:39 PM »
Salam :)

I can only answer the question from my point of view. We learn from the Quran that we should remember Allah at all times (Sabih, zikr)3.38/39, 30.17/18, 33.42, 40.55, 76.26 u.a). We have two periods, which are mentioned specifically: dawn and dusk as the timing over the metaphorical sense in beginning and the end of the day. Now, when we face the problem of long days without nights, or vice versa, so we can carry over to get up from sleep and bedtime, and the rest. So, these two are certainly times for  a prayer. to remember Allah, when we open the eyes and when we go sleep..then our body has Requirements such as eating and drinking, which can interrupt us the day's work. There are indications for prayers, our internal clock draws our attention to the times of worship, which can vary from person to person.
We must always keep in mind that Allah is beyond our time and that the concept from time and it's measurement is individually.
So I feel the requirement of prayer as a help, which leads us ultimately to total surrender to Allah, which is not bound or limited in time, but completely
i don't know if this helps :) peace.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #3 on: August 06, 2012, 02:40:57 PM »
salaam sardar,

As far as I know, all salat verses which have a timed component to them are in the singular EXCEPT 24:58. Since it does not mention the "sun" in 24:58 it can be taken to mean your morning and evening, whatever it may be.

Similarly, as far as I know, all sabih/hamd verses with timings are in the singular.

The singular address can be taken to mean the prophet, i.e. addressing him with his point of reference, not a universal address.


And as a side note, sawm/abstinence is only for those who witness the shahr (full-moon/lunar-cycle/month), thus if you do not witness it you do not abstain.

God knows best.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #4 on: August 08, 2012, 11:15:23 AM »
Salam Bro Wakas I did not follow about your telling SIngular timings  and singular address to Prophet.Can you pl elucidate? Thanks
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Wakas

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #5 on: August 10, 2012, 02:42:08 AM »
w/salaam,

The grammar of who is being addressed in the verses can be singular, dual or plural, please check the arabic, e.g using http://corpus.quran.com

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #6 on: August 10, 2012, 12:45:12 PM »
Salamun Alaikum Wakas,

Having studied Arabic grammar, with respect, I am not sure I understand or agree with your statement. Please can you clarify.

Similarly, as far as I know, all sabih/hamd verses with timings are in the singular.

For example, glory (sbh) is indicated in verse 30:17, with the phrase 'tumsuna' and 'tusbihuna' which clearly reads to me in the plural address when I read it in Arabic.

فَسُبۡحَـٰنَ ٱللَّهِ حِينَ تُمۡسُونَ وَحِينَ تُصۡبِحُونَ


030:017
“So (give) glory to God, when you reach the evening (Arabic: tumsuna) and when you reach the morning (Arabic: tusbihuna)”

Also, when the Quran wants to single out an action such as prayer / worship for the Prophet alone it makes it absolutely clear as in the following example:

وَمِنَ ٱلَّيۡلِ فَتَهَجَّدۡ بِهِۦ نَافِلَةً۬ لَّكَ عَسَىٰٓ أَن يَبۡعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامً۬ا مَّحۡمُودً۬ا


017:079
“And from the night arise from sleep for prayer (Arabic - faTAHAJJAD): (it would be) an additional (Arabic Nafilatan) for thee (Arabic - Laka): it may be (Arabic: Asa) that thy Lord will raise thee to a station of praise and glory! (Arabic: yab-athaka rabbuka maqama-mahmudan)”

Please note how 'tahajjad' has been singled out for the prophet (laka) with the masculine single personal pronoun 'ka'. (17:79).

If you don't mind me asking brother Wakas, can I politely enquire how you have come to the conclusion in your quote given verse 30:17 and what grammar / linguistic method you may be applying? Is it a form of regional Arabic spoken method / dialect you may be fully conversant with rather than classical / fus'ha?

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #7 on: August 10, 2012, 04:50:05 PM »
w/salaam Joseph,

Thanks for the verse, however, can you provide another example apart from 30:17?

The reason is 30:17 does not mention sun-timings, only "morning" and "evening", which can be present anywhere, regardless of the sun.

With regard to the method I apply regarding the Arabic, I simply look at the grammar via books/resources/corpus. If the grammar indicated plural (as in 30:17) then its plural, if it is singular (as in 20:130) then it is singular.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #8 on: August 11, 2012, 03:50:07 AM »
Dear brother Wakas,

Salamun Alaikum.

With respect, I feel my example should suffice to offer opposition to your assertion.

I am not sure I understand your repeated contention to request sun timings and what it is intended to prove in the context of the prayers. I have already contended, repeatedly citing my evidence, that the Quran only provides guidance on the periods of the day when salat needs to be established.

I find that you are unduly ring-fencing the criteria for the admission of evidence to support a particular interpretation.

However, thanks for your clarification with regards your approach.

I feel I have exhausted my perspective in my articles and in my discussions with you on this topic.

PRAYERS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm

FORUM
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0

Please accept this as my final post to you on this matter.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #9 on: August 11, 2012, 04:15:46 AM »
Dear brother Joseph,
w/salaam,

The reason I refer to sun-timings is because the original post in this thread. It was regarding the polar regions in which for some months they do not have the sun present and for other months the sun persists all the time. Thus citing "evening" and "morning" verses etc doesn't address the polar region situation:

Quote from: Sardar
If we base salaat ritual on Sunrise and Sunset ( day and night which is measure of time when there were no clocks ) then this application for salaat timing is not practical in Polar region.


Hope that helps to clarify.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Salaat Timings
« Reply #10 on: August 11, 2012, 04:54:22 AM »
Thanks for the clarification brother Wakas,

As I trust you will agree, matters such as to how to keep duties at Polar Regions or how to pray in space etc would normally be considered as exceptional circumstances. This would arguably be well off the curve of standard normal distribution which is not the intention of the Quran to address as a primary discourse.

The desert based Arabs of antiquity are arguably the primary focus of the Quran to whom it attempts to convince with the arguments it presents stipulating guidance and not non-existent believers in the Polar Regions in the 7th century.

For example, dwellers in the far northern extremities would be least enticed by statements of the Quran such as those implying cool 'shades' (zilluha) given the bane of their lives would arguably be the extreme cold they almost consistently experience as they possibly covet warmth!

I feel the Quran has the capacity to allow for discussions with regards exceptional circumstances. This I have always felt inherent in its discourses. It merely offers guidance.

I know this has been raised in some circles as to how to manage extreme periods such as those that exist in the extreme northern latitudes.

Regards,
Joseph. 
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell