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Offline Orange

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We created GOD or GOD created us
« on: September 01, 2012, 04:55:09 PM »
Dear Joseph, One of my friend has a question:

If GOD existence is not acknowledged how can HE still exists?

Divine book should not be made the evidence for HIS existence.

And answer should be logical. (We created GOD or GOD created us).

It takes two to tango.

regards

Offline HOPE

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #1 on: September 01, 2012, 06:14:23 PM »
Hello Orange,

If a tree falls in the forest, does it make a sound?  The vibrations are there but it needs a receiver to become a sound.   The Quran is a book of signs and it only speaks to the seeking heart.  Your friend seems to be only using his reason and logic but  his rationality is based on false assumptions.   Reason is a great gift to humanity though it does not always guarantee the truth if based on false assumptions.  Another great gift is the heart.  The fitrah is in the heart .  Through it we incline to know God. Once we marry the mind and the heart, then God will lead. 6:125 
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #2 on: September 01, 2012, 11:13:33 PM »
Dear Orange,

Peace to you.

I couldn't give you a better response to the one already exquisitely shared by Hope (thanks)  :)

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Orange

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #3 on: September 04, 2012, 06:54:26 PM »
My friends response:

I am not looking for a philosophical or a religious answer:

Quoting the Quran to answer a question that specifically states  that "the divine book should not be made evidence of his existence" is very cleaver,

as for the first part of the answer the vibration bit, is also justified by the sense of feel thus it is no different to sight or sound,

further more false assumptions are falsified based on assumptions you deem correct.



Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #4 on: September 04, 2012, 08:36:06 PM »
Peace Orange,

The question from your friend goes to the heart of the atheistic argument to provide proof of God's existence.

The question posed by your friend has a faulty premise. It is being argued from the position that God does not exist (i.e. is not acknowledged) when this has not been established in fact.

Furthermore, it is unwarranted to imply that just because ‘God is not acknowledged’ by one, that God in fact does not exist.

It is even 'cleverer' on the part of your friend then to tacitly attempt to shift the burden of proof to theists to prove the existence of God when 'logically' neither can the atheist disprove the existence of God whilst the premise of the question assumes the position that 'God does not exist'.

If all Divine scriptures are inadmissible, then we must question how we have got to the stage of evolution of creation where we can even ask the question.

Therefore, I have two simple questions for your friend.

What is the purpose of creation and how did it come into existence ex-nihilo?

This is important as the question by your friend has no meaning in time and space if we can’t explain how we got here in the first place without a Creator creating the Universe.

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline HOPE

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #5 on: September 04, 2012, 08:56:06 PM »
Peace,

I really do not understand what your friend is asking.  I suppose he does not find my reply convincing.  I do not know how to convince him neither do I want to.  I am going to write about what I know and how I know.

I know with certainty that everything is created by a Single Creator.  Everything in His creation is relative and transient.  God is One-Absolute and Transcendental.  How did I come into this 'knowing' which is beyond the reach of a created being's perception?  I am endowed with the faculty of contemplation like you are. Science neither can nor will ever prove or disprove God because science works in the physical realm with observable or measurable data and it is an evolving discipline with new discoveries.  We discovered that there exists dark matter that is unaffected by light.  We know its existence by its gravitational energy.  Likewise, I get to detect the manifestation of God on the physical plane by the signs in my environment as if they are His footprints.

Belief in a Creator  is a conviction just like your knowledge of your impending death.  You do not acquire such knowledge by looking at your body.  This kind of knowing is very personal based on a feeling, a hunch or an intuition.  The Quran invites us to recognize the limits of human perception and be open to ghaib which means seeing through the heart.  Use your physical eyes for scientific discoveries.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #6 on: September 05, 2012, 06:39:44 PM »
This is other way round. Nothing existed before creation of Heavans & Earth except God therefore the question of creating God by the Creatures does not arise. The God is Awwal, existed from the beginning and Akhir will be the last one. therefore  it is incumbent upon the Creatures of accept the Creator and act as per the will conferred upon them.He does not  need creature's acceptance,Prayers,magnification,rejection or any form of act as He is above all.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline HOPE

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #7 on: September 05, 2012, 10:13:43 PM »
Salaam,

To be fair, I think the questioner meant that the concept of God/Creator is a figment of our minds which is probably true for the creation of myths.  People were puzzled by natural phenomena they did not understand nor had any control over these events. They probably thought their world was ruled by unseen powers.  Thus the creation of stories about these events.  In a way they were empowered by the creation of idols in their minds because then they were able to direct these unseen powerful forces.  Rituals, sacrifices, ceremonies all for the appeasement of these forces for protection and blessings.  It is a common theme in the history of mankind all over the world that life was controlled by invisible beings.  And most of them were closely related to nature.  We see that in the Abraham's quest.  Actually the men were partially right.  They were all ilahs created in the mind until Abraham's quest led him to discover his relationship with one Creator.  He simply reasoned with his heart.

3:67  Abraham was neither a "Jew" nor a "Christian", but was one who turned away from all that is false, having surrendered himself unto God; and he was not of those who ascribe divinity to aught beside Him.  Asad translation
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Adil Husain

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Re: We created GOD or GOD created us
« Reply #8 on: September 05, 2012, 11:40:56 PM »
Salamun alaikum ,

Dear Orange ,

"we will show them our signs in the universe and within themselves untill it become clear to them that this is the truth" (somewhere in the Quran)

I am convinced that Allah has given us limited capacity to think and imagine , we cannot imagine many things . For example : try to imagine a new colour never seen before , result of 0 divided by 0 , some parts of theory of relativity, etc

Who created everything from an atom to galaxies ?
Science will give an answer - Big bang ,
Now which event triggered the explosion named big band , who created mass and the massive amount of energy for big bang to occur ?

These question are enough to convince oneself that there is a creator. Whose imagination is beyond our thinking.

You cannot measure temperature beyond 100 degrees with a thermometer ranging from 0 to100 degrees but a glass thermometer is a proof that glass was melted and moulded.

If there is no God , we are just a complicated chemical system.
'I must strive for reformation of myself and the world'