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Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« on: May 11, 2013, 02:26:33 PM »
I was reading brother Joseph's article over here http://quransmessage.com/articles/sex%20with%20slave%20girls%20FM3.htm

Some thoughts I have:


- Where does 4:25 say that we must wed slave girls in order to have sex with them? The verse only says that if one cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry slave women.

- Where do 4:3 and 24:32 say that marriage is compulsory in order to have sex with slave girls? It only talks about marrying them, which is permissible and encouraged.

- 70:30 makes a clear distinction between wives (i.e. Azwaaj) and what your right hands possess. It doesn't make the distinction between "free women" and slave girls. The word "wife" is neutral in it's meaning. It doesn't mean "free woman who is your wife". It simply means "wife" or "companion". So a slave girl could be your "wife" as well. Hence, in 70:30 Allah should have used the appropriate word for "free women" if He truly wanted to make that distinction. To simply argue that there are differences between "free women" and "slave girls" doesn't justify interpreting 70:30 as distinguishing between married free women and married slave girls. Rather, it makes the general distinction between married women (not specifying whether they are free or not) and slave girls. The "(wedlock)" in 70:30 as cited by Joseph in his article is a personal interpretation, for it's not there in the text. Joseph said in his article "These differences in choices based on free and non-free parties are clearly recognized. Hence the noted difference in answerability as well.", yes but such a distinction wouldn't be important in the context of 70:30 which is mainly discussing which women are lawful for the man. The usage of the words is general in nature.


Would like to hear your thoughts.

Thanks,

Bassam

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #1 on: May 11, 2013, 02:40:21 PM »
Salaam,


The instruction is clear. The verse is telling you that in order to have relations with a slave girl, marriage is a prerequisite.

You are saying that this is only optional and encouraged so therefore by your logic the same must apply to the free believing woman !

Surely you are not advocating illicit sexual relations with free believing women?

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #2 on: May 11, 2013, 03:22:14 PM »
Quote
The verse is telling you that in order to have relations with a slave girl, marriage is a prerequisite.

Which verse are you talking about? 4:25?


Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #3 on: May 11, 2013, 03:33:58 PM »
Salaam,

Yes. I was responding to:

Quote
Where does 4:25 say that we must wed slave girls in order to have sex with them? The verse only says that if one cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry slave women.

Offline optimist

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #4 on: May 11, 2013, 03:37:58 PM »
- Where does 4:25 say that we must wed slave girls in order to have sex with them?
Salaam,

Without interruption, let me ask you,  wherein Quran say that you and me can have sex with slave girls?   Whatever laws The Quran contains about slaves, are intended for these slaves who were already present in society. "Ma Malakat Aimanukum" means those who are already in your possession. This is stated in the past tense, meaning something that has been done before.

At the advent of Islam, like in the rest of the world, slavery was prevalent among Arabs, too. Prisoners of war were turned into slaves by them. When they embraced Islam, they already had such slaves and concubines in their homes. If Islam had ordered them all out, then there would have been chaos in the society. Hence such laws were established, like freeing the slaves  as expiation for many types of sins, providing the slave with his freedom in exchange of ransom value, marrying them and thus making them legal husband and wife, etc.,  whereby they were given freedom gradually.

For the future, The Quran completely closed the door on slavery. This was how it was done. For prisoners of war, the order was quite clear. The Quran says that after over powering them: either be gracious to them and let them go, or else take ransom and let them free (47:4).  The door for future slavery was thus closed by the Quran forever.

Regards,
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #5 on: May 11, 2013, 03:52:23 PM »
Hi Truthseeker,

I believe illicit relations are forbidden because of other verses, not 4:25. If you believe 4:25 itself makes it haram, then kindly cite the verse and show me where.



Optimist,

You may start another thread if you like. Want to try to keep this one focused. Thanks.

Offline Duster

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #6 on: May 12, 2013, 11:47:54 AM »

- Where does 4:25 say that we must wed slave girls in order to have sex with them? The verse only says that if one cannot afford to marry free believing women, then he may marry slave women.


4:25

Waman lam yastatiAA minkum tawlan an yankiha almuhsanati almu/minati famin ma malakat aymanukum min fatayatikumu almu/minati

Muhammad Asad

And as for those of you who, owing to circumstances, are not in a position to marry free believing women, [let them marry] believing maidens from among those whom you rightfully possess.


Yusuf Ali (Saudi Rev. 1985)

If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess:


M. M. Pickthall

And whoso is not able to afford to marry free, believing women, let them marry from the believing maids whom your right hands possess.


Shakir

And whoever among you has not within his power ampleness of means to marry free believing women, then (he may marry) of those whom your right hands possess from among your believing maidens;


Yusuf Ali (Orig. 1938)

If any of you have not the means wherewith to wed free believing women, they may wed believing girls from among those whom your right hands possess:


Abdel Haleem

If any of you does not have the means to marry a believing free woman, then marry a believing slave-


Maududi

And those of you who cannot afford to marry free, believing women (muhsanat), then marry such believing women whom your right hands possess.



http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/4/25/default.htm

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=4&verse=25

Offline Duster

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #7 on: May 12, 2013, 11:52:29 AM »
- Where do 4:3 and 24:32 say that marriage is compulsory in order to have sex with slave girls? It only talks about marrying them, which is permissible and encouraged.

Questions like this only show the desperation that you have to pick holes in the Quran view. If the verse talks about marrying them, then where do you get the idea that this is not the expected position? Why are you so bent in trying to prove that it is o.k. to have sex outside marriage with slave girls? is it so you can defend your nonsense hadith?

Amazing!

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Joseph Islam's Article "SEX WITH SLAVE GIRLS"
« Reply #8 on: May 12, 2013, 05:52:23 PM »
Salaam Bassam,

There is nothing more to cite.

You say:

Quote
I believe illicit relations are forbidden because of other verses, not 4:25. If you believe 4:25 itself makes it haram, then kindly cite the verse and show me where.


Other verses make you believe that illicit relations are forbidden and marriage is compulsory. So what makes you believe it is optional to marry slave girls?

4.25 could easily have said that if you cannot afford to marry free believing women then have relations with your slave girls, yet it doesn't!

Marriage is a prerequisite for sexual relations always.