The Quran supports a Geocentric view of the universe?

[hicham9]

افلا ينظرون ... الى الارض كيف سطحت
Do they not then look ... at the earth how was it flattened/leveled ?

The root سطح denoting flatness/levelnes is known in Arabic and well attested in the šemitic tree, like e.g., šṭḥ (ܫܛܥ) in Aramaic — adj. šṭīḥ (ܫܛܝܼܚܐ) means: flat — also, cf. šṭīḥūṯā (ܫܛܝܚܘܬܐ) = flatness, and šṭīḥāʔīṯ (ܫܛܝܼܚܿܐܝܬ) = in a flat way/form; ...

Natheless, the qurānic vb. suṭiḥat (سطحت) in 88:20 is oftentimes misconstructed by traditionalists as "spread" ! They try to hide earth's flatness/levelness (in the Qurān) from the foreign reader. This, i suspect is done either intentionally or subconsciously (out of bias, as most Adamites adhere to heliocentrism nowadays).

Earth's flatness/levelness is an OBSERVABLE living FACT backed up by ground-based experiments and high-altitude observational evidence. Hence, the quranic question: Do they not then LOOK ?! (افلا ينظرون)

[Star]

I want to clarify: THE QURAN DOES NOT EXPLICITLY STATE THAT THE EARTH GOES AROUND THE SUN. Neither does it explicitly state that the Earth is round, unless you consider the meaning of the word "dahaha" to  be "egg-shaped". It does not explicitly state any of this.

And it shouldn't. It is not a science book. It is religious scripture. It neither supports the geocentric theory or denies it. The Arabs believed in the geocentric theory at the time of revelation. The Quran didn't aim to change their views on science, because if Muhammad started saying the Earth was round and went around the sun, the Arabs would have called him a big liar. The Quran provided a neutral position on this issue, and there is wisdom behind this.

[Star]

Hicham9, no more pictures, please. You yourself claim that pictures can be edited and falsified. You are cherry-picking by providing pictures of your own. This is a logical issue.

And as I said: The word "ard" means "surface of earth" or "land", not earth. Yes, the Quran says the land was leveled/spread out for us to use it. It does not say the earth itself was leveled. Why do you keep ignoring this fact? I should probably stop replying to you, but you are repeatedly ignoring the factual information that I'm giving you, and I can't let that go unnoticed.

[hicham9]

And as I said: The word "ard" means "surface of earth" or "land", not earth. Yes, the Quran says the land was leveled/spread out for us to use it. It does not say the earth itself was leveled.[/b] Why do you keep ignoring this fact? I should probably stop replying to you, but you are repeatedly ignoring the factual information that I'm giving you, and I can't let that go unnoticed.

Correction.

The equivalent of QA: ارض in English is earth [ ea/ʔ (ا) r (ر) th (ض) ]
This is because like ارض, earth in english denotes the same meaning/s and functions in the same way.

Moreover, the quranic term for land in specific (ie. In contrast with the sea) is br (بر) - not ارض !

Hope this helps.

سلام

[Duster]

Second, Brother Joseph doesn't speak Arabic either, the last time I checked. He uses Lane's Lexicon for checking the meanings of words.

About my comment that Brother JAI doesn't know Arabic: I'm pretty sure he doesn't, but if he actually does, I'm sorry. I wasn't sure if he actually did or not.

Shalom / peace Mia,

I like your posts, but this comments are unfair>>>>especially if you are not familiar with bro Joseph's works or he hasn't made such a statement directly>>>> He only uses Lanes lexicon so that he can back up his point of view for the English speaking audience. This does not mean he doesn't know Arabic. He also doesn't simply use one lexicon but you should also see his posts and discussions with regards Arabic grammar....Look at this example, he also provides evidence from Arabic dictionaries too!!....

Thobe and jilbab - http://quransmessage.com/articles/thobe-jilbab%20FM3.htm
Also look at his discussions with those that don't know any or little Arabic:
http://quransmessage.com/files/forum%20pdfs/Do%20Animals%20Speak.pdf

>>>In the end, if he hasn't revealed much about himself and doesn't speak much about his background, then we shouldn't do this on his behalf. He has his reasons why he stays anonymous and we should respect that and not fill in the gaps.....>>>just my point of view, pls don't take offence. I don't think you meant any offence anyway....

[Hassan A]

Salaam hicham9,

You're still at it, huh?
Well...am not here to convince you otherwise, It will be a waste of my time.
But I wish to touch on the following statement you made:

the real quranic term for land....

What do you mean by "real Quranic term"? Furthermore, as evident by the following verse, the word earth (ard) is used to mean 'land'. So....

http://corpus.quran.com/wordbyword.jsp?chapter=30&verse=3

[Star]

Salam Duster

You're right, it's possible that he knows Arabic. I was using him as an example to show that you don't need to speak Arabic to understand the Quran. That might be unwarranted. I didn't mean anything offensive, and if he actually does know Arabic, I apologize for assuming he doesn't.

Either way, the Quran is a guidance for the righteous, Arabic-speakers or not. But I'll refrain from citing people's backgrounds without evidence next time

Hicham9: It means "surface of the earth" in general terms. However it can also mean land:


30:2-3 - The Romans have been defeated. In the nearest/lowest LAND, and they, after their defeat, will be victorious.

As for the verse you cited, yes, a more specific term for "land" was being used. However, this does not exclude the possibility that "ard" can also mean "land" or "earth's surface" in a less specific way.

[Star]

Salam Hassan. I guess we've all joined the irrational fray again. Well well.

Quranic Arabic Corpus is a pretty good tool for checking the authenticity of translations, because word-by-word morphology rarely lies. You can twist around vague translations of verses to suit your preconceived notions, but it's a lot harder when you're translating word for word.

It's a nice site for non-Arabic speakers to understand the Quran, my dear Hicham9.

[hicham9]

What do you mean by "real Quranic term"? Furthermore, as evident by the following verse, the word earth (ard) is used to mean 'land'. So....

As already mentioned, QA: ارض functions the same as En: Earth, ie. in a general sense. It can denote the earth as a whole (used with def. article), or a land/rural area (indefinite).

In 88:20, the author used the definite form, hence the earth as a whole is the intended meaning.

The equivalent of QA: ارض in English is earth [ ea/ʔ (ا) r (ر) th (ض) ]
This is because like ارض, earth in english denotes the same meaning/s and functions in the same way.

Moreover, the quranic term for land in specific (ie. In contrast with the sea) is br (بر) - not ارض !

[Star]

Yes, "ard" can mean surface of the earth or land. It is unspecified. Words used in the Quran have multiple meanings, and we are expected to follow the best meaning. The best meaning of "ard" in this context is "land." This usage adheres to sense and science.

With due respect, please stop repeating arguments that have already been refuted.

Mia

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

words used in the Quran have multiple meanings

You are absolutely right. And the context of those words will always determined what is being refered to.

If we look at the surah and verse you cited:

"The Byzantines have been defeated In the nearest land...."[30:2-3]

It is obvious that the word earth (ard) in the above verses, as per the context, refers not to the earth in general, but rather to the/a land.

[hicham9]

Be ye my guests and turn a blind eye to most occurrences of ʔl-ʔarḍ in the Qurān (الارض in 88:20 included) whereof the term clearly denotes the earth as a whole !

To ye be your dyn/judgement, and to me mine.

سلام

[Hassan A]

turn a blind eye to most occurrences of ʔl.ʔarḍ in the Qurān (الارض in 88:20 included) whereof it clearly denotes the earth as a whole

First off, neither I nor mia666 dispute the fact the the word earth (ard) can also mean the earth in general. The point we were making is that when the word earth (ard) is used it can also be referring to a/the land. Context will always determine which of the two is being referred to.

Secondly, your usage of 88:20 to indicate that the earth is flat is incorrect.. As has already be alluded to:

"The surface of the earth i.e. earth’s crust is less than 30 miles in thickness and is very thin as compared to the radius of the earth which is about 3750 miles. The deeper layers of the earth are very hot, fluid and hostile to any form of life. The earth’s crust is a solidified shell on which we can live. The Quran rightly refers to it like a carpet spread out, so that we can travel along its roads and paths.

A carpet can also be spread on other than an absolute flat surface

Not a single verse of the Quran says that the earth is flat. The Quran only compares the earth’s crust with a carpet. Some people seem to think that carpet can only be put on an absolute flat surface. It is possible to spread a carpet on a large sphere such as the earth. It can easily be demonstrated by taking a huge model of the earth’s globe covering it with a carpet.

Carpet is generally put on a surface, which is not very comfortable to walk on. The Quran describes the earth crust as a carpet, without which human beings would not be able to survive because of the hot, fluid and hostile environment beneath it. The Quran is thus not only logical, it is mentioning a scientific fact that was discovered by geologists centuries later."

[Star]

Hassan: Exactly. The Quran is not saying that the planet itself is flat. Besides, nearly all celestial solid bodies the size of planets are spherical. They have to be, because gravity pushes them into that configuration. They couldn't exist otherwise, with the forces of gravity at work.

Hicham9: I can see that you are never, ever going to be convinced. You have rejected all of our evidence and used numerous logical fallacies in your arguments. You still have no evidence to back up your claims. You provided pictures, but you yourself say that pictures can be edited and falsified. You told us the Quran supports geocentrism and a flat earth, but this was due to a mistranslation, which we corrected. You have no more ground to stand upon. From my understanding, this absurd "debate" is over, since you refuse to see the obvious. Well, we tried our best to convince you. We cannot do anything more.

[Hassan A]

Salaam all,

I agree with what mia666 shared in her last comment. I too m done with this "debate", as well.

Peace.