Messages

361

General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe

« on: August 01, 2012, 11:49:57 AM »

Salaam,

Firstly, just to let everyone know if they don't already, that I am a sister 

I am in agreement with you about the fact that all was arranged before the creation of the Universe. This however does not mean that God does not interject in our lives, it in fact confirms it because He knew of all the scenarios we would be in and what help we would ask of Him and He responded in kind.

When a law is set into operation, it does not mean that there is no involvement of Allah

I agree. Just because God decided what laws of nature to apply or suspend and also what He wanted to implement of His will on mankind BEFORE creating us, it does not mean that He is not shaping our paths.

We are not aware of what is to come next in our lives because we work linearly. So for example when we pray for something and a positive response is received, we naturally feel that God has responded to us in that moment, when in fact He had done so before time.

He is in the past, present and future so He is involved all the time, implementing not only the laws of nature, but also implementing His will that He decided on BEFORE creating us.

Even the verses you have quoted, Allah does not go contrary to his Decree (which is in a clear book/ record) before the creation of the universe.

Then we are in agreement? The fact that God for example, helping people directly /indirectly in their lives is already set in a decree, then that would be implemented to the letter in our lifetimes.

362

General Discussions / Re: The Secret of Universe

« on: July 30, 2012, 12:58:57 PM »

Salaam,

Thanks for all the posts. I note that Optomist, in your post, the Quranic verses quoted are in places off kilter. If I am not mistaken, are they from QXP by any chance?

I think that the traditional idea of pre-destiny is confusing to many people because they think that they have no control over their actions when clearly that is not the case from the Quran.

However to say that God has no involvement in their journey through life is not correct either.

God is not bound by time and is aware of our actions at any given point in our lives. He didn't make us do those actions but He is involved in the course our lives take and He does indeed present us with situations and thoughts to which we respond with free will.

22.40 attests the fact that had God not intervened, people would have torn down the synagogues.

If things were left to just cause and effect, then the whole Earth would be in a state of disorder and mischief (2.251)

He clearly disposes our affairs (13.2) Also we are told  that He plots against those who plot which tells us that He is involved and will interject when He sees fit.

It is not simply a case of cause and effect with no involvement from God as we are told that we will be tested according to our individual faculties.

363

General Discussions / Re: Translation and Tafseerً

« on: July 23, 2012, 05:04:33 PM »

Salaam,

I agree with you. As some verses were addressing only the people present at the time of the revelation, they would be aware of the background for the verses. We however do not need to know and just the message should suffice
The tafseer suffers when, as you say, the translators introduce Hadith to explain verses.

Thanks

364

General Discussions / Re: Translation and Tafseerً

« on: July 22, 2012, 12:11:53 PM »

Salaam,

The tafseer that you read has been translated, as originally it was written in Arabic. This was centuries after the death of the prophet (pbuh).

It seems that throughout time, people have had a deep sense of curiosity as to the exact situation surrounding a particular verse being revealed. From this curiosity, the tafseer developed.

The problem is that now, many people consider it to be factual. In my opinion, having the translator's thoughts in the foot notes is not a bad thing per se, as long as they do not introduce external sources to support their understanding of the verses. That is where the problems start to arise.

Thanks

365

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 07, 2012, 12:36:22 PM »

Salaam,

I think that we can still appreciate the struggle that the prophets and messengers faced as humans in their endevour to convice others of the Truth as well as believing that God aided some by providing miracles. These were merely sent to further prove the existence of God beyond doubt once they saw His display of power. They would therefore have no excuse on the Day of Judgement.

God knew that the majority would disbelieve yet He still sent these 'signs' sometimes in the form of miracles and other times as a final warning before His punishment ensued.

If He then decided to put a stop to these signs when it came to the Quran it is clearly His perrogative. He is never unfair. Each generation had different ways of receiving the Truth.

We could question then why were all the people who disbelieved not destroyed when they had a messenger/s amongst them?
 
You would say that it is God's perrrogative. He always knows the conditon of a people and in what way they should receive the message.

366

General Discussions / Re: 17.59

« on: July 07, 2012, 12:00:35 PM »

Salaam,

I think that the conversations that you and Joseph have had on this topic have been in depth.  I as a forum member can also see that the conversation between you both has been exhausted clearly by the fact that it has spilled over from another thread.

Sometimes members get engrossed with each other in the posts not realising that the conversation has come to a natural conclusion!

367

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 06, 2012, 12:22:30 PM »

Salaam Optomist,

A lot of verses that you claim to be allegorical are in fact part of a bigger narrative. That is, when God is recalling an event in the past, we are conveyed a series of incidents and conversations which give us a fuller picture of what happened.

So I wonder then, when we read through the narratives, why an allegory would be inserted mid way for no reason.
This would throw the reader off because the Quran is narrating factually a whole scene to us where we are told that x said this and y replied,then this happened and then the story concludes.

I note your comments on G. Parvez's in depth work with Arabic. This is no mean feat and I hope that God rewards him for all his efforts InshAllah.
However, he would be better placed that most would you not agree, to be able to understand the context and nuances of the verses. He, because of his beliefs that miracles do not exist, seems to have pushed aside what is clearly being narrated.


The story of Prophet Moses for example, when he faces Pharoah and his magicians is an example of an event in history.The story starts from 7.103 :

'Then we sent after them (the messengers) Moses with Our signs to Pharaoh and his chiefs, but they disbelieved in them; so see what the end of the corrupters was.'

We can clearly see that a FACTUAL series of events is about to be relayed to us regarding the plight of Prophet Moses. Clearly depicted in Arabic, are conversations that ensued and incidents that occurred.

Now by saying that in between this, allegories are being introduced  midway into the story for example when we are told that his staff turns into a serpent and his hand becomes white in response to Phaorah's challenge, is nonsensical. This is not contextually correct in this whole section (7.103 till 7.145)

I could argue that Pharoah's threat to chop off hands and feet on opposite sides is an allegory which really means that he will cut off the sustenance and family from those who deflect.
But in the context of the story, you would obviously say that he is literal in his statement.

We are not left in the dark regarding allegories. They do exist but they are presented clearly to the reader as such because in these verses God asks us to ponder and consider similitudes.

Otherwise we will have no way of discerning fact from fiction and everyone would be singing from a different hymn sheet.

368

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: July 02, 2012, 11:07:29 AM »

Salaam Optomist,

Is is great that people like yourself are trying to separate the Quran from the traditional understanding that is marred by secondary sources.

I too decided to step back and start again, realising that I had looked at some subjects through pre conceived ideologies that had no basis from the Quran.

However this does not mean that everything in the Quran needs to be redefined just because the traditionalists practiced or believed in it.

I believe that salaat means physical prayer and that saum means fasting. I also believe that miracles existed.

That does not make me a traditionist. The Quran only approach does not mean that we strip everything back to the point where nothing exists, just leaving a void behind to be filled by big egos who have gone beyond the point of no return.

Shaytaan cannot change the Arabic, but has worked his way through the understanding of the words, to such an extent that we now have a Quran that is unrecognisable.

369

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 29, 2012, 07:49:29 AM »

Salaam all ,

With regard to Mubashir's comments, it is disconcerting especially for those who do not know Arabic when you have translations that are completely different from the mainstream.

The translations by Parvez and Shabbir do not stand up to scrutiny simply because they do not represent the Arabic closely enough.

Joseph has raised the right questions regarding parables, as we have to look at the issue as a whole and taking all the verses into account, it is plain to see that miracles do exist.

Optimist, you make the correct point where you say that we should only look at the Quran for guidance. However I note your comments regarding Mary.

The points you make about her being a nun and breaking temple rules are not from the Quran. The only reason that this is being used, is in order for those who do not believe in Jesus's miraculous birth to be able to explain the verses in a different way.

In my opinion this is utterly underhanded because they are not using the Quran to explain itself which is meant to be the guiding principle according to Parvez and Shabbir.

370

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 27, 2012, 06:02:36 AM »

Salaam,

The verse regarding sending signs by way of warning to my mind conveys the fact that God sends messengers and prophets to a community conveying the message and also accompanies them with 'signs' to make things crystal clear. Some signs are in the form of miracles and others are used to warn people before they will be ultimately punished.

What we have seen from the past, is that so many people have disbelieved regardless of the message being made clear so certain signs are presented as warnings.

The she camel was one of them. When the people transgressed, they disregarded the warning and thereafter met their end.

371

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 26, 2012, 01:46:38 AM »

Salaam,

The people here are talking about attributing literal sons and daughters in the biological sense to God.

The response is that He is not like His creation.

Prophet Jesus (pbuh) had no father but was carried in the womb as any other child would be. The process of creation began when God simply willed it, as Joseph mentioned, similarly to when God began the creation of mankind.

If we take away the miraculous birth of Jesus, and say that he had a biological father, Mary's claim that no man has ever touched her would then be a lie.

372

General Discussions / Re: four birds or four parts of the bird

« on: June 25, 2012, 12:52:05 PM »

Salaam,

I am really pleased to read your comment regarding miracles. When looking at the verses about 'miracles' as a whole, we cannot simply put it down to allegory.

We must be open minded and not interpret things the way we want to rationalise them. In my opinion there are so many verses describing miracles, that they cannot simply be overlooked.

You mention the verses where the people demand miracles as proof of God's existence and also the Quran mentions that from the time of prophet Muhammed ( pbuh) there will be no more miracles because when God had shown the previous generations, they still disbelieved


This confirms the fact that miracles existed. It is a great shame then when I see the translations by G.Parvez and Shabbir.

They have had to go to great lengths in order to rephrase the verses and to present them as non miracles.

Even in the case of prophet Jesus, they deny his miraculous conception. In this case I note that Shabbir decides to promote the fact that Joseph is the biological father.This purely because he does not believe in miracles.

In my view, it is outrageous for someone who claims to explain the Quran from within itself, to start inserting external references into the text only when it supports his ideology.

Just something to think about...
 

373

General Discussions / Re: Resurrection explained by a parable

« on: June 18, 2012, 11:19:22 PM »

Salaam,

You mention:

"I believe literal understanding of words like Naml as actual "Ants" and Tair as "birds"  and Hudhud as particular bird are not  warranted in the context of the verses; those could be very well allegorical terms used to denote specific situations, nature of his armies and its power and strength."


I would like to start by asking, why would God use well known words to the Arabs, like tair (birds) to explain a different meaning?

We know that the Quran states that it is a clear book in the Arabic language, easy to understand for its audience. If God did not mean 'birds' then why was it used if only to denote something else.

God does not bombard us with riddles.

I feel that because G.parvez did not believe in miracles and other concepts, he translated those verses in a way that satisfied him. This is unfortunately not the way we should approach the Quran..we cannot change it to fit our preconceived notions.

374

General Discussions / Re: Resurrection explained by a parable

« on: June 17, 2012, 12:52:05 AM »

Salaam all,

I am still baffled as to why G Parvez was intent on refuting what have clearly been shown to be miracles in the Quran. The lengths he as gone to inorder to portray them to be symbolic amazes me.

It seems to me that he may have had a preconceived notion that miracles simply cannot exist and followed through by interpreting verses in such a way as to eliminate their existence. This has resulted in long winded interpretations of the verses which  do not represent the arabic words at all. This is extremely dangerous in my opinion.

I note also that he has the same stance with jinns and also Iblis as well.

375

General Discussions / Re: Saying Merry X-mas or other un-Islamic greetings

« on: June 02, 2012, 07:37:01 AM »

Salaam all - Is it OK to wish someone happy X-mas or saying Happy Diwali or other greetings which may come from pagan origins? Doc.

Salaam Doc

Please see answer for a related question in the Q&A section

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=192.msg507#msg507

Thanks