Messages

[after the facts and evidence]

Salaam Saleh,

As Joseph mentioned, the act of homosexuality is punishable in the Quran. Once this has been discovered, a punishment may be meted out by whoever is in authority after the facts and evidence have been gathered.

Then I feel that like the lashes for adultery, one should be unwavering in carrying out the duty. This is because God has ordered a punishment. Also others will get a clear message that God is displeased with such acts.

It may be that after the punishment, the two repent and change the error of their ways (4.16) realising that they had displeased God. Then no one has the right to harass them because God's mercy can be infinite.

Thanks




UPDATE BY QM FORUM MODERATOR

13th March 2013

This thread is now closed and a direct link to this post is now available at the dedicated Q&A page.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/q&as%20FM3.htm

Thanks.

Salaam,

I think that maybe Saleh is saying that they are being punished in the graves till the Day of Judgement...or maybe that they are in a nightmare where they are shown hell and what is in store for them?

[as they are clearly presented in the Quran.]

Salaam

Joseph makes some very good points. In particular:

If you note the claim by the Jinn in 46:30 that they '...heard a Book revealed after Moses...' one will clearly note that this was a rather exceptional 'inclination'. I don't think the book of Moses was revealed to 'Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts' that G. Parwez expresses.

Also I do not see why it is such an issue to define jinn  as they are clearly presented in the Quran. God is perfectly within His rights to create what He wills. We cannot and must not restrict Him:

3.47:
....' He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.'

42.29:
'And of his signs is the creation of the heavens and earth and what He has dispersed throughout them of creatures. And He, for gathering them when He wills, is competent.'

Again may I mention the fact that the jinn were created before mankind. Also we know that they are a completely different creation to us.

The propostion by Dr Shabbir and Pervez, that the jinn are somehow 'bedoins' does not make sense and contradicts the Quran:

15.27
'And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.'

All verses in the Quran must be reconciled with the above two facts (at least) regarding the jinn. It seems that others are trying to 'fit' their notion of jinn into the verses which leaves them still unable to explain 15.27 amongst others.

Also, we can ascertain from the Quran that Satan is a jinn. So does that mean that he is a bedouin Arab?? ( According to Dr Shabbir and Parvez) or maybe a  'non-Arab Jew of Nasibin' ( According to Amatul Rehman Omar)

As this thread continues, I feel that the propostion that the jinn are simply another group of humans is being exposed as an erroneous conclusion.

[acknowledges that the jinn were a creation that were created before us and that they were created out of fire.]

Salaam,

I see that Parvez acknowledges that the jinn were a creation that were created before us and that they were created out of fire.

However, he then goes on to assert: 'That specie is extinct now - and is referred to as 'al-jaann'.'I do not see where he draws this conclusion from. Nowhere in the quran does it state that the species is extinct. To say that now, jinn refers to bedouins, would cause confusion if you look at all the verses in the Quran that refer to jinn, as you would not know which verse is referring to which 'definition' of jinn.

Parvez says:
'The Qur'an has referred to and addresses 'Jinn and Ins' in many verses together. Ins, (as explained under the heading 'Ins) means tribes settled at a place, and Jinn means those Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts of forests away from cities. In Arabia such people were great in number'

When the Quran addresses 'jini wal insi' which just means 'jinn and men' it is referring to two different creations. Ins(i) is linked to insan which means mankind.

Parvez says:
'In verse 6/131 "Oh Ye, assembly of Jinn and Ins don't you know that a Rasool came to you from amongst you'. (In the Qur'an no reference is there to show that at any time a Jinn was also a Rasool

Firstly the verse is 6/130 and it states:
'O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers (rasulun) from among you, relating to you My communications and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say: We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.'

The word is 'rasulun' which is plural . The verse is confirming that both jinns and mankind received messengers from among them i.e their own kind and not of another species. Also this conversation will occur on the Day of Judgement so it cannot refer to just Arabs, one group being 'settled tribes' and the other being 'bedouin tribes'.

Pervez says:
'It is further clarified in verse 7:35 that the Rusul (plural) were from Bani-Adam and sent towards them'

7.35  is addressing mankind only and is talking about the messengers they receive. This verse does not confirm that all messengers are human or that a jinn cannot be a messenger (rasul). In fact we know that messengers can be amonst the angels as well. They too are referred to as rasulan:

35.1:
'Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.'

Pervez says:
'In Surahs Jinn and Ahq'af, a reference occurs where it is mentioned that a group of Jinns came to the Rasool to listen to the Qur'an (72/1, 46/29). This also shows that the group who came to Rasool-Allah (PBUH) were actually human beings,  but from uncivilized tribes.'

72.1:
'Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,'

To me, the above verse just tells us that the jinn 'listened in'. They had simply heard the message of the quran when the Prophet was reciting it.  In fact If we read Surah Jinn then we have some insight into their existence:

72.8
'And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars.' A human is not able to do this.

Finally, if we look at Surah Rehman, it is talking to two groups when it says:

'Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye both deny?' The word is: tukadhibāni. Thus is 2nd person dual (form II) imperfect verb.

The quran is full of references about the jinn. They are hidden from our view, they have volition as we do, there are believers and disbelievers amongst them, like us they were created to worship/serve God and they will be gathered on that Day to answer for their deeds as will we.
We must look at these verses together and in my view they all clearly refer to a separate and distinct creation. The same one that Parvez refers to initially but then for some reason says became extinct.

Thanks

[clearly]

Salaam,

The explanation of jinn that Dr Shabbir gives is odd. From my understanding of the Quran, the jinn are clearly a separate creation. The word jinn shares the same root as jannah. It means something that is 'concealed or 'hidden'. Jinn are created from a type of fire or 'confused flame' Iblis is also a jinn. They have also been created before man.

Created from fire:

15.27:
"And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire."

7.12:
"He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust."

They like us are meant to serve God:

51.56:
"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me."

Some will be destined for hell just as some humans will be:

11.119:
"Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together."

If the jinn were 'nomads' it doesn't make sense when looking at the above verses as nomads are still of the human race. Why would they be mentioned separately when surely they are subject to God's Laws just like any of us. Also if we look at 15.27 then that would mean (according to Dr Sahbbir's explanation) that nomads were created before humankind.

Salaam all,

I read this thread with great interest. Brother Sardar has raised an important issue. This issue needs to be addressed as due to this hadith based Shariah, people are suffering unnecessarily, sadly, even as I write this.

Just recently I read about the Taliban stoning to death two women:

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/world-asia-15688354

Irfan, I too hope that what you have said will not be ignored. I agree totally with your sentiments.

Thanks to everyone.

[even when they were shown real miracles]

Salaam,


I agree with your sentiments. With the Quran, there were no more miracles to be shown to the people. They challenged the Prophet openly to bring them 'signs' but God tells us that the people before were sent miracles yet still denied God.

The people in the Prophet's era were just the same:

17.90   And they say: We will by no means believe in you until you cause a fountain to gush forth from the earth for us.
17.91   Or you should have a garden of palms and grapes in the midst of which you should cause rivers to flow forth, gushing out.
17.92   Or you should cause the heaven to come down upon us in pieces as you think, or bring Allah and the angels face to face (with us).
17.93   Or you should have a house of gold, or you should ascend into heaven, and we will not believe in your ascending until you bring down to us a book which we may
            read. Say: Glory be to my Lord; am I aught but a mortal messenger?


All messengers faced stubborn people who refused to believe, even when they were shown real miracles..they defied them so with the Quran they are asked to 'ponder' over the verses and use their reasoning to see the truth.

Salaam Irfan,

That's no problem.

Salaam Zakaria

I welcome your post and thank you for your thoughts on the subject.

If only others made use of the simple rules that you mention. A pragmatic approach to the Quran is essential to aid our understanding but unfortunately this is not the method that many Muslims use today.

[stages]

Salaam Irfan,

Looking at the all the verses you mention and keeping 25.32 and 17.106 at the forefront, I look at the other verses you mention in light of the these.

Those two verses talk about stages in revelation. Verse 25.32 is clearly indicating that the Quran was not revealed all at once:

"And those who disbelieve say: Why is the Quran not revealed to him all at once? (It is revealed) thus that We may strengthen thy heart there with; and We have arranged it in right order"

The other verses  you mention are providing more detail regarding the revelation, namely that it was revealed in the month of Ramadhan and further mentions a 'blessed night'
To me it cannot be talking about the whole Quran as that would be contradictory to verse 25.32 and 17.106. All the other verses need to be reconciled with these two.

Rather it tells us that the night the first ever revelation came down was 'blessed' (of course it would be as mankind is about to receive the ultimate guidance from God) and that the night falls in the month of Ramadhan (2.185) ( mentioned because we are to fast in this month to thank God for giving us the Quran - whose first revelation was received by the Prophet in this month)

With regards verse 53.10 I feel that it is referring to something else in light of the surrounding verses. It seems that something was shown here:

53.10-12
"And He revealed unto His slave that which He revealed. The heart lied not (in seeing) what it saw. Will ye then dispute with him concerning what he seeth?"


This is what I understand all these verses to mean. Joseph has an article that may be relevant which discusses Lailat ul Qadr:

http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/Night%20of%20Power.pdf

Salaam,


I do not see anything wrong with that if you feel that that is a more appropriate phrase as we can ascertain what their state is from the various verses in the Quran.

However I personally would have no issue in using the phrase 'peace be upon him/them' as is used in 37.79 and others.

Maybe Joseph can elaborate further..

[It therefore follows that by virtue of this fact]

Salaam,

Of course we are sure of their honored positions and they as you say 'are blessed and in peace'. It therefore follows that by virtue of this fact it seems befitting that when we recall them we send peace upon them. Verse 37.78 says that God has left the salutation/blessing for Prophet Noah (pbuh) amongst the later generations in a way to honour him.

Quite simply in my view when mentioning their names, it is an acknowledgement of their honored positions and respect for them and the work that they did. In many places in the Quran, God is praising them and tells us what wonderful servants they were.

On a separate note, when we lose a loved one, always (in my experience any way) people add 'may God bless his soul or 'may he rest in peace' and 'may God have mercy on his soul'. Even when we hear of a death, we instinctively say something to that effect as we hope the best for them

Yet in the case of the prophets and messengers God is confirming that they are 'blessed' and all that he is asking is that we in a way testify to this fact.

This is my personal view as I feel that they deserve no less than this.

['exclusive' action for the Prophet because of verse 33.43]

Salaam and welcome to the forum

I find that your post makes some interesting points.

Although the Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) is no longer with us, by virtue of 37.79 and others, I feel that out of respect for him and all the other prophets and
messengers that came before him, we should ask God to 'bless/ send peace' upon them.

If you are mentioning a certain prophet in a conversation many times then I think there may not be a need to add the 'blessing' every time.

With regards:

1. I agree with Joseph that this is not an 'exclusive' action for the Prophet because of verse 33.43 which applies to 'normal people'  Many Muslims ignore this   
    verse and stick to 33.56 instead to make the Prophet 'exclusive' and to support an ideology that excessively venerates him.

2. I think it just means to bless or give honour to or commend

3. I feel that the blessing is fine as it is eg 'May peace be upon him' or 'May Allah bless him' even though he has passed away. This is because of the directives in (33.79), 
    (37.120), (37.109) etc where later generations were asked for blessings to be given for previous messengers.
   

With regard to 2.157 I feel that it simply means that God 'blesses' them and not literally that God 'reads' a certain number of Salawaat. This concept of reading a certain number of Salawaat a certain way is not from the Quran.  In all the cases anyway ..we and even the angels are asking God to bless the prophets.

You said:

SALAWAAT is not reading something for a certain number of times but practically doing something i.e. commending and supporting the mission of the Messenger [a.s.]  by whatever means we can.

That is not possible now of course as he has passed away. Even if we look at 33.56, the second part of the verse asks believers that were with the Prophet to ask for blessings for him and also to greet him with a good greeting. It makes sense that you ask for God to bless a Prophet that is amongst you as one would want to wish well for him and what better way to convey this by asking God to bless him.

The Quranic directive of 'sending blessings' is so simple but unfortunately it has become so 'ritualistic' and 'exclusive' for Prophet Muhammed (pbuh) as he receives a special blessing (saw) compared to the other messengers!


Thanks

Salaam sister Saba.

Welcome and please do encourage others to join also. Look forward to some healthy discussions.