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106

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 13, 2014, 08:00:29 PM »

But, which is the source of: "our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance"?

There are several reports....it is almost well known among scholars.....The following is reported from hadiths (please note, I am quoting these hadiths just as historical reports, which can be either accepted or rejected based on other supporting evidences).   I will be providing you some other sources later to corraborate.

Sunni Source:

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 3: Narrated Talha bin Musarrif: I asked 'Abdullah bin Abu Aufa "Did the Prophet make a will?" He replied, "No," I asked him, "How is it then that the making of a will has been enjoined on people, (or that they are ordered to make a will)?" He replied, "The Prophet bequeathed Allah's Book (i.e. Quran)."

Bukhari, Volume 4, Book 51, Number 37: Narrated Abu Huraira:  Allah's Apostle said, "My heirs will not inherit a Dinar or a Dirham (i.e. money), for whatever I leave (excluding the adequate support of my wives and the wages of my employees*) is given in charity."

*No comments for the things put in brackets since I can’t understand the logic in putting things in bracket when a Hadith is narrated...things in brackets can only be logically the assumption of the reporter!!

Shia Source:

‘Ali ibn Ibrahim narrates from his father, from Hammad ibn ‘Isa, on the authority of [‘Abdullah ibn Maymun] al-Qaddah that Abu ‘Abdillah [Imaam Ja‘far as-Sadiq] said: Messenger of Allaah (peace and blessing of Allaah be upon him) said: “Whoever walks a path seeking therein knowledge, Allaah will lead him on a road to Jannah... And the ‘Ulama are the heirs of the Prophets; and the Prophets did not leave dinars and dirhams as inheritance; but they left knowledge. Therefore whosoever takes knowledge has taken a great portion.”
[al-Kafi, Kitab Fadl al-‘Ilm, Bab Sifat al-‘Ilm wa-Fadlihi, hadeeth no. 2]

And, what is: "true divine system"?

By true divine system I meant a society in which the true Laws of Allah (not supposedly true laws) are implemented and practiced.

Regards,
Optimist

107

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 13, 2014, 02:38:17 AM »

Only, that we should not relegate to safe-keeping, the good things that we can conveniently part with in order to help others.

Salaam!

I believe you partly agree with me hoarding of wealth will not be allowed in a true divine system.  According to the traditional view, we can hoard as much as we wish under any circumstances, but if we give 2.5% of it annually as zakaat, then this makes the rest of our wealth halaal (permissible).  The verse 9:35 alone is sufficient to show that the traditional understanding of zakaat is completely wrong.

Regards,
Optimist

108

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 12, 2014, 01:14:21 PM »

Salaam!

As for me, not really convincing brother Ismail.   This is an issue of paradigm shift and I can not go for extensive discussion here.   If you can post your email address I will give you enough material to read.  This is a vast subject.   Let me still address one point (in short) which I understand as a major issue reflected in the verses you have quoted.

One general fundemental objection is that, if we are not allowed to save surplus money, if private acquisition is forbidden what becomes of precepts such as sadaqaat, the commands to take care of orphans, poor relatives, the weak and vulnerable sections of the society, and the poor? Indeed, what of the laws of inheritance?? Will these teachings, all of which appear frequently and are given much attention in the Quran, not become obsolete? Does the fact that these teachings are preserved in the Quran not suggest that Allah does allow private acquisition and hoarding after all?  A question may also be asked, whether verses like 9:34 that prohibits hoarding, and the verse 9:35 which states that the hoarded wealth of such people will be melted in the fires of hell and used to brand them, are just superficial in nature.

Actually the Quran adopts a gradualist approach to reforming human society to bring it in line with its ideal.  On the one hand it brings about a psychological change in the people and on the other it creates an atmosphere in which the individual feels increasingly secure in the knowledge that giving away his possessions will not put him in danger.   It states, 'Behold, God has bought of the believers their lives and their possessions promising them paradise in return' (9:111). 

In short, all Quranic instructions on subjects such as alms-giving and charity, trade, lending, borrowing, inheritance, etc. may be considered part of the first phase when a society begins to change and when new circumstances and challenges arise, the laws pertaining to the first phase are obviously no longer applicable, and they effectively recede to the background. The fact is that these laws are conditional, i.e. they are concerned with the specific condition of a given society.   To tell you a few examples, there are many laws relating to freeing of slaves, marrying them and having sexual relation with them, and all these laws are not applicable when a society becomes free of slaves.    Similarly when administration makes arrangements to provide loans to people, then private lending will obviously become obsolete and the Quranic instructions regarding individual loans will no longer enforced.  The quranic injunction allowing individual to use find sand for ablution instead of water before prayer may become operative in a city where what is easily available, but injunction is never abrogated, in case it becomes necessary to apply it again in the future.   In this regard, let me focus on laws of inheritance bit more.

Laws of inheritance:-

The Quran does not actually accept the system in which people merely inheriting the wealth from their parents as an ideal system to be followed perpetually (i.e not having earned wealth through one's own labour...and actually such kind of inheritance is a sign and basic feature of capitalist system that creates and perpetuates the rich-poor divide), and hence the Quran states "And you devour inheritance with greed" (89:19).  This verse clearly shows that according to Quran, the laws relating to inheritance were applicable in the early phase of the divine system.  Given that inheritance is identified with selfishness and greed, how can it be considered ideal in a true Islamic state?  One of the fundamental principles of Islam is human equality, and yet in practice we also accept divides in every department of human life, as though they were natural and inevitable.  Hence for example, whilst we say that the son of a man with title "Syed" should not expect to be treated differently just because the title implies he is descended from the prophet's family, we never think to apply the same rule to a millionaire's son.  Simply by virtue of being born in a millionaire's house, the son receives all the privileges (with complete legal right) that come with such wealth, even though he has done nothing to contribute to those millions, even though no one knows how the millionaire has amassed the wealth.  He can buy anything, including status, and this is perfectly accepted. How can this be tolerated when in Islam all men are supposed to be equal regardless of birth?  The Quranic laws on inheritance thus only apply until the divine system of sustenance is full established, until the state takes up the responsibility to ensure that all the needs of all the people are met.  Once this system is fully established, we will find that just as our prophet never left anything behind as inheritance, the society that follows his example will likewise not continue tradition of inheritance.

Regards,
Optimist

109

Women / Re: Critique: Marrying 4 wives in Islam

« on: January 11, 2014, 03:25:53 AM »

All other forms are only allowed in emergencies and only allowed to man with capability to deal justly

Wassalam,

Thanks...this is the point. 

Also the decision whether there are any emergency situations or such circumstances are present, which are the pre-requisites of polygamy, is the responsibility of the society and not of individuals themselves.

Trying to justify polygamy under cover of verse 4:3, in ordinary circumstances and without the condition mentioned, is nothing but the open flouting of the injunctions in the Quran. If you ask somebody, he would say, that as he was childless, he married again; as if God had enjoined upon him to increase the tribe of Adam and then come to Him, failing which he would be sent to hell. On the contrary, God Himself has said that children are born according to the law of nature. Some get boys and some girls; some have boys and girls both, and some remain childless (42:50).Some say that because their wives were perpetually ill, they married again. According to them companionship means: As long as your partner is healthy you keep her, and the minute she is sick you throw her into hell..!!!

Also, when a nation feels the urgency to solve the problem of widows and orphans, the women also shall take equal part in this decision; men alone shall not decide it. It shows that even under the extraordinary circumstances the consent of the first wife shall be mandatory; otherwise the home shall turn into a hell.

Regards,
Optimist

110

General Discussions / Re: Discussion: The Legislative authority of the Prophet Muhammad

« on: January 10, 2014, 06:23:54 PM »

Salaam!

Firstly, thank you brother Joseph Islam for your time and comments.  Your comments were intelligible.  Thanks a lot.

Brother khalid zia, I noticed the following comment you made. 

In the verse regarding Prophet Ibrahim, a specific example of Uswa Hasana is given and on the other hand the verse regarding Prophet Muhammad there is no specific example given - hence the Prophet Muhammad as a "Usawa Hasan" is not limited.

Are you implying here that Uswa Hasana of prophet ibrahim was confined to certain specific examples?  This is a highly defamatory and derogatory remark and it seems you do not know the status of Prophet Ibrahim.    The verse in which (60:4) the Uswa Hasana mentioned about prophet Ibrahim and his companions is a highly focused verse.  What is stated in the verse is that prophet Ibrahim and his companions boldly stood up and declared that they worship Allah alone and they are disgusted with them and their deities they worship (see also 37:85-86) and that they totally reject their way of life and consider it wrong.   Therefore, the uswathun hasana mentioned here is linked to each and every moment of their life.  Surely I have turned myself, being upright, wholly to Him Who originated the heavens and the earth, and I am not of those who associate (other things with Allah) 6 :79. 

Now,  The Quran does not point us to any other books that we must seek in order to follow the best example of Prophet Ibrahim. Does this mean that today we cannot follow his best example?  Before answering we need to know what aspects of their best examples are we to follow. Are we to dress as they did? Do we mimic their eating habits?   Now Prophet Ibrahim probably wore the same clothing that was the norm in his time and probably sported a beard, as did his Kaffir father. Probably, he sat on the floor and ate with his hands, as did his Kaffir father.  Allah does not leave us guessing - He tells us the EXEMPLARY conduct of the Prophet Ibrahim in the Qu'an that we are supposed to follow.

The first act, of course is Submission to Allah alone: “Our Lord! And make us both submissive to Thee”. - (2: 128)

And He bowed his will to the Command of Allah: “When his Lord said to him, Be a Muslim, he said: I submit myself to the Lord of the worlds”. - (2: 131)

He also did not associate anyone or anything with Allah (6:76-79) 

He is also the one who is not afraid to tell the truth to his elders (6:74)

He was a good host (11:79)

His first instinct was to forgive and give people more chance to mend their ways.  Even for Lot's people he pleaded mercy.  ”Most surely Ibrahim was forbearing, tender-hearted, oft-returning (to Allah)?” (11:74-75)

This is the example we are supposed to follow.  Now, just like Prophet Ibrahim, Prophet Muhammad was also born into a culture - he wore the clothes that they wore; he had a beard as was the custom in his days. Abu Jahl also sported a beard; he ate as they did, most probably with his hands sitting on a floor. The question is: are we to follow this cultural example, or are we to follow best example outlined by Allah that we saw in the case of Prophet Ibrahim?   Allah did not leave the best example of the Prophet Muhammad that we are to follow until eternity, to outside obscure sources.  We will see that Allah has defined the best example of the Prophet Muhammad in the Quran.

(a) Absolute submission to Allah alone

Say: 'My prayer and my rites, my living and my dying, are for Allah alone, the Lord of all the worlds.'" (6:162).
Prophet said to his companion "have no fear for Allah is with us": (9: 40)

Say: Allah is sufficient for me, there is no god but Him. In Him I have placed my trust for He is the Sustainer, in awesome almightiness enthroned.” - (9: 129)

(b) The Prophet was always devoted and stead fast on his duty

Say: "It is not for me to change it of my own accord. I follow nothing except what is revealed to me. I fear, were I to disobey my Lord, the punishment of a Dreadful Day." (10: 15-16)

Say: "I do not ask you for any wage for it, nor am I a man of false pretentions." (38: 86)

© The Prophet showed great patience at all times

“So be patient in the face of what they say and glorify your Lord” (50: 39)

“Be patient. But your patience is only by Allah. Do not be grieved by them and do not be constricted by the plots they hatch. Allah is with those who fulfill their duty and with those who are good-doers.” (16: 127-128)

(d) The prophet was most considerate and compassionate

Prophet always supported the community of the faithful with his strong conscience, and was a benefactor to them at all times.  Because of these traits, the Prophet is described in many verses as "your companion." (34:46: 53:2, 81:22)

“A Messenger has come to you from among yourselves. Your suffering is distressing to him; he is deeply concerned for you; he is gentle and merciful to the believers.”(9:128)

"And take the believers who follow you under your wing." (26: 215)

“It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults) and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them…”(3:159)

(e) The Prophet was an embodiment of tolerance and justice

The Prophet never wanted to force the religion on others. The Prophet abided by the verse "There is no compulsion where the religion is concerned" (2:256)

"My Lord has commanded justice…" (7: 29)

“Stand out firmly for justice as witnesses to Allah even as against yourselves or your parents or your kin and whether it be (against) rich or poor.”(4:135)

"when ye judge between man and man that ye judge with justice (4:58)

(f) The Prophet was a bearer of glad tidings

"O Prophet! We have sent you as a witness, and a bringer of good news and a warner" (33:45),

Say: "My servants, you who have transgressed against yourselves, do not despair of the mercy of Allah. Truly
Allah forgives all wrong actions. He is the Ever-Forgiving, the Most Merciful." (39: 53)

“Be sure We shall test you with something of fear and hunger some loss in goods or lives or the fruits (of your toil) but give glad tidings to those who patiently persevere.”(2:155)

(g) The Prophet relieved Muslims of Difficulties

“Those who follow the Messenger, the Ummi, whom they find written down with them in the Torah and the Gospel, commanding them to do right and forbidding them to do wrong, permitting them good things and prohibiting them bad things, relieving them of their heavy loads and the chains which were around them..” (7: 157)

(h) The Prophet would consult with the faithful

“It is part of the Mercy of Allah that thou dost deal gently with them. Wert thou severe or harsh-hearted they would have broken away from about thee; so pass over (their faults) and ask for (Allah's) forgiveness for them; and consult them in affairs (of moment). Then when thou hast taken a decision put thy trust in Allah. For Allah loves those who put their trust (in Him)”(3:159).

(i) The Prophet was always kind-hearted and courteous

Some of those who surrounded the Prophet were less than well-mannered and cultured. The Prophet on the other hand, was very thoughtful, courteous, patient and civilized, and treated such people nevertheless with the greatest tolerance. Allah came to rescue the prophet in these circumstances.

“You who believe! Do not go into the Prophet's rooms except when you are invited to come and eat. Do not wait there while the food is being cooked. However, when you are called, go in, and when you have eaten, disperse, not remaining there to chat with one another. Doing that causes annoyance to the Prophet though he is too reticent to tell you so. But Allah is not reticent with the truth... (33: 53)

Conclusion:-

It is unreasonable and unthinkable that Allah would instruct us to follow the Prophet's personal mode of behaviour, because a person's mode of behaviour is determined by many different factors, such as customs and tradition, his education, personal upbringing and personal inclinations. The Prophet's mode of eating, of dress and indeed of general behaviour would not be much different from that of other Arabs, including Jews and Christians, of the time, except on matters prohibited in Islam.

So were the methods of the Prophet's wars and his administration of the Medina city-state. The weapons he used, such as swords, spears, arrows and shields were in accordance with the prevailing technology. Today, with the development of modern weapons, the Muslims obviously cannot fight with the medieval weapons used by the Prophet, although they must emulate his staunch faith in Allah and complete adherence to Allah's teachings.

Regards,
Optimist

111

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 10, 2014, 01:13:35 PM »

Salaam.

The word al 'afv here means:

A moderate amount of good things, so that no embarrassment is caused to the giver (2:219, 2:267, 17:29, 15:67).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Wasslam,

Before making any conclusion and seeking for interpretation that appeals to your logic, kindly consider the following.

Firstly, please note that what is mentioned is the verse is مَاذَا يُنْفِقُونَ, what they should spend.  They were not asking how they should spend their earnings. They were specifically asking what is their share and what is the share they have to spend.  It is like asking, imagine, I have 100 dollar, I need to know how much I can keep it for myself and how much I have to spend.   

Many Quran translators have captured the correct meaning of “Afv”, for instances,

[Yousuf Ali]  They ask thee how much they are to spend; Say: "What is beyond your needs."
[Pickthall) And they ask thee what they ought to spend. Say: that which is superfluous.
[Shabbir] They ask you what they should give, Say “all that is surplus”
[Parwez] Say: all that is surplus to your needs (this will be done when the Quranic order is established and takes upon itself the responsibility to provide means of sustenance to all)

Here is some brief notes taken from Lughat-ul-Quran from Parwez duscussing the word afwu

Ain, fa,wao

Afwun literally means ‘to give up’; afa unhu means allowed him to go without punishment; i.e. forgave him [Muheet and Taj]; the Quran uses the words afwun and safhun together in one sentence 2:109 the difference between these two words is that the word safhun is quite comprehensive i.e. to allow to go scot free but in afwun it is possible that some advice may be given [Taj]; the author of Muheet says the difference between  afwun and maghfiratun is  that in ghufranun there is no punishment whatsoever while afwun can take place before or after the punishment.  Afwun; after the punishment would mean to dismiss the effects of the punishment; because afwun also means to obliterate; and  maghirratun means to protect from the effects of punishment from the beginning; afwun as said means to obliterate or be obliterated;

The book Sahaa says that afwul maal means the wealth that is more than one’s expenses; aatai-tuhu afwul maal means I  gave him wealth without his asking for it{Taj}; Ibn Faris has supported this meaning; al-afwu minal maal means the water that is remaining after everyone has drunk to his fill and there is no heart burning and resistance to having it;  afa alaihi fil ilm means he surpassed him in knowledge and added to his knowledge;   

Therefore afwu means more than needed; the Quran says these people inquire as to how much should they keep for themselves and how much should  they spend towards the sustenance of others; 2:219 the answer is qul afwu i.e. tell them whatever is more than their needs;  this is the true principal of Islamic sustenance;  i.e. every individual in society should strive as hard as he can and keep for himself only that which he needs and spend the rest for the betterment of society;  as against this, the capitalist system is based on spare wealth or surplus money but  in a Quranic system spare wealth cannot remain with any individual because it is handed over for the sustenance of others; all individuals are looked after by the system for their needs and individuals hand over their surplus money to the system  or the state and as such nobody dies of hunger and nobody possess extra wealth.

Al-aafiyatu wal mu-afaat means to protect from harm from others; or to be protected from diseases and misery [Taj];   Ibn aseer says this sentence means that people are made independent of each other or that nobody is dependent on another; to protect one from the harmful effects of another; so that nobody depends on you and you do not depend on anyone else ; al-mu-affi means the man who stays with you but does not expect anything from you; [Taj]; aatai-tuhu afwa means he gave him without asking; also afwun means the best thing; plus the thing which does not require any tribulation or effort in acquiring [Taj].

Regards,
Optimist

112

General Discussions / Re: Do the Islamic Secondary Sources have Divine Religious Authority in Islam?

« on: January 09, 2014, 08:58:33 PM »

Salaam!

I liked the following comment I read from an article;

Allah tells us that the Qur'an is light (4:174, 42:52). Can secondary "sources" such as hadiths shed light on the Quran, which is light? The answer to the question is “No”.   For a believer the Quran is like a sun, which always shed light.  Any light if found in any secondary sources is no more than a reflection of the light of the Quran. If we turn towards them for light, we turn away from the Quran.  If we allow them to come in between us and the Quran, we will find ourselves in the darkness of a spiritual eclipse, cut off from the light of the Qur'an.

Regards,
Optimist

113

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 08, 2014, 08:47:41 PM »

It is said in Surah Al Baqarah: ‘O Prophet (S)! these people ask you that they should be informed categorically as to what share they have for themselves and what is for others in their earnings.’ It is informed: “What is beyond your needs.” (2:219). Tell them: ‘Your share is only to the extent of fulfilling your needs.  This (quill afwa) command has solved the problem absolutely and forever. Due to this, there did not remain any surplus money with anybody, and when there did not remain any surplus money, then the problems and disasters rising due to economic unevenness came to an end. The difference between the creditor and the debtor, the house owner and the tenant, the landlord and the tenant, the industrialist and the labourer, and the rich and the poor ended

The Quran has emphatically stated that accumulation and boarding of wealth is the most heinous crime. It fuels the flames of the fire of hell and the wealth and its accumulators will get scorched and burnt therein (9:34-35). These flames will engulf the hearts of these persons (104:2-7). Despite their efforts to escape from it, it pulls them and destroys everything like the flow of lava from a volcano (70:5-18).

114

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 08, 2014, 11:44:07 AM »

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   

Because their disobedience in that matter would mean the final showdown.

Why disobedience in a particular matter was tested (permitting camel drinking water on its turn)?

Why prophet saleh had to suggest fixing up of turns for animals?

Regards
Optimist

115

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 07, 2014, 08:32:06 PM »

"How do you ensure that the lands obtained initially or the subsequent purchases done are devoid of any fraudulent transactions?"

Answer: (5:101), (6:152).

Salaam! 

I missed to make a comment for the above which is linked to the subject matter of discussion.  As a answer to my above question, you are saying that it is better not to ask such questions (5:101), because probing answers for such questions may cause trouble!!   Actually it is your helplessness which is reflected here.   In fact your mind is telling you that those people who made such subsequent purchases can not be the rightful owner of land or the property in this way.   But you are afraid to admit this fact due to different reasons.   Imagine you inherit from your father, and you are not sure how he accumulated the wealth.  How can you have legal right over the wealth you receive in this way?  Suddenly all the money or wealth you receive in this way can not become white money in your hand once it is handed over to you!!

Even in any court of law in the present times, imagine you purchased some land or any property from someone, and later it was proved that this man got this through fradulent transactions or any other misrepresentations.  Even though your are quite innocent and totally unaware about such translations,  no court of law will give you legal possession.  You will be forced to return the land or the property.  The only option for you will be to claim compensation from the person from whom you purchased the same. 

However, in Islam, there is no question of giving ownership of land to individuals.  The ownership of land vests with Allah alone.    The responsibility of ensuring every member in the society gets materials for sustanance falls on the administration (11:6).  A battle between Haqq Baathil is going and in the future all systems based on giving ownership of land to the people will collapse.   In the battle between Haqq and Baathil, it is the LAW of ALLAH that only what is benefitial for the humanity will ultimately prevail (13:17). 

Regards,
Optimist

116

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 07, 2014, 05:43:49 PM »

Salaam.

"The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly. "

What is in italics, is mere conjecture. The bold, indeed, is a fact. The underlined, is illogical.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam,

My question (without going for any argument and confining only to what you have agreed as fact) :-

Why prophet Saleh warned the people not to obstruct the she-camel drinking the water on the appointed day and time?   Why they ignored the objection and went on even to kill the camel? 

Thanks in advance for answering the question directly.

Regards
Optimist

117

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 07, 2014, 04:30:29 PM »

In the above post, mistakenly I mentioned 7:74 instead of 7:75.  The verse states  "The chief men of his people who were arrogant said to those who were considered weak -- those among them who believed -`Do you know for certain that Salih is one sent by his Lord?' They answered, 'Surely, we believe in that which he has been sent".

118

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 07, 2014, 03:29:20 PM »

They kept disobeying him, until the Divinely Ordained Test of God's Camel.

Salaam!

Unfortunately, you are still unable to appreciate and grasp the real facts.   The Quran narrates different stories of people belonging to past nations and the different inequities they created in their societies.   Apart from their general disbelief in Allah and His messengers, Quran also focus on the different evils prevailed in those societies, which, altogether, ultimately led to their destruction.  The prophets came and taught them the true path guided them and warned them, however, when their rebelliousness went beyond a certain stage, they were all destroyed.   

You are focusing here on "GOD's camel" as if this particular camel was sent from the sky.  Infact everything including all camels belong to Allah.   The camel was a material symbol of God in that context and that is why it was called naqatullah (Camel of God) and ayat (sign) See 7:73. It was a symbol (lakum ayatan) to determine whether they, (the people) stuck to the agreement (will be explained below).  It also served as a final warning,  failing which they will have no opportunity to mend their ways.  They had to be sufficiently warned that they will be directly violating divine directives if they harm or prevent the camel.

Have you ever thought why they were tested with a she camel?   What is the relevance of Camel?   How it is connected to "disobedience" to Allah?  Do you think they killed the she camel because it belonged to Allah??   Do you think that the people were involed in a killing spree of whater belonged to Allah and prophet saleh just chose as a final warning a random animal as a she-camel to test them whether they would kill something belonged to Allah?

The Quran clearly states Thamud people created inequities on earth 7:73.  How??  They had shortage of water.  Whatever water was accumulated, was reserved by the big-wigs of the community for themselves and their animals and the animals of the poor died of thirst (note, the weaker sections of the population supported Saleh 7:74).  Prophet Saleh told these people that, to reserve the water for a section of the people which has been provided by God free of cost for all creations is unjust.  He warned them to desist from this path or they would be destroyed.  Thus after a lot of argument they agreed that everyone should water their animals by turn (note, in 26:155 the warning is very specific that the she camel should be allowed to drink water on its appointed day and time).  Therefore, to test their commitment to the agreement, which Saleh would let loose a she camel and see whether it was allowed by them to drink water in its turn.  If it was allowed to drink on its turn then it would mean that they were  sticking to the agreement but if they didn’t then it would mean that they had made the agreement only superficially. This is what happened and they killed the camel heartlessly.

I advise you to desist from superficial reading of the Quran.  In whatever language you try to explain the she camel and its relevance in the story of Thamud, ignoring what I stated above, you will fail miserably to give a satisfactory logical explanation.  One of the qualities of true servants of God is mentioned in the Quran as; those who when they are reminded of their Lord's verses, they do not fall on them deaf and blind (25:73).


Regards,
Optimist

119

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 06, 2014, 11:54:06 AM »

Salaam brother Ismail,

The tone of some of my comments were different....sorry!  I can't edit my comments.  I kindly request you to focus on the followings;

1. Just think why prophet saleh gave an ultimatum, a final test, warning the people of dire consequences if they prevent the camel from taking water.  Prophet saleh knew that they are going to forcibly prevent the camel from taking water.  Their disobedience was linked to sharing the water (that's why saleh suggested fixing up the turns of the animals)

2. The test and the final ultimatum given by prophet saleh to the people was not linked to killing the camel, but linked to permitting the camel to drink water in her turn.

3. If there was no issue of monopolizing water sources,  the issue would have been a simple matter of a camel drinking water and there was absolutely no reason for people to make objections (no warning was even necessary).

Kindly think

Regards
Optimist

120

General Discussions / Re: In the divine system every individual keeps only what he needs!!

« on: January 06, 2014, 03:07:07 AM »

"This man is my brother and he has a flock of ninety-nine ewes and is thus well to do."

How did you say that?

How did you ask such a ridiculous question?  It is just a common sense that one person having ninety-nine ewes, when compared to another person having just one ewe, is a well to do person.

"I have only one which is my sole source of income."

How did you know?

This is what the poor man is stating.....just a common sense way of understanding.

"And instead of giving up some ewes from his stock to help his poor brother, he is asking me to give my only ewe to him."

Such redundant remarks can throw our whole focus off the mark.

Not necessarily.....actually as a brother, the rich man was supposed to support him instead of demanding the one and only ewe the poor man possessed.

"He always prevails in argument."

He never said this.

(Pickthall) and he conquered me in speech 38:23
(shakir) has prevailed against me in discourse.
(Mohamed Asad) forcibly prevailed against me in this [our] dispute.
Oh sorry! qxp may be acceptable for you...."and he dominates me in eloquence”

Injustices in which a person prevails upon another in order to dupe him, should not be blamed on any one system.

Kindly explain what system was prevailing there.

Water holes in deserts are not anybody's property. The insistence of Saleh on a certain sharing of water was only regarding just one particular she camel.

Haha! so according to your amazing logic, they had problem with only one particular camel drinking water and they were willing to allow all other camels irrespective of to whom it belonged.  Good logic...keep it up.

That it was a test preceded by water hole monopoly or land grabbing/land mafia, is neither mentioned nor clearly evident.

If then why prophet saleh suggested fixing up the turns of the animals??   

The injunction regarding the 'Camel of God' (91:13) was a last chance (to test their obedience), and a final ultimatum to the disobedient people of Saleh. Their disobedience has not been specified as being that of water hole monopoly.

The final ultimatum was specifically related not to prevent the camel from drinking water.   You said "their disobedience has not been specified......"  What was their disobedience according to you???    Even any child should be able to understand that their disobedience was related to preventing the camel from drinking the water (ignoring prophet saleh‘s request to fix up turns). 

Regards
Optimist