Messages

136

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 07:45:50 PM »

In my view and once again good logic .....you add very little or nothing to this thread...with multiple straw man type arguments ....in my view, you are very quick to jump into threads with submitter or Rashad Khalifa arguments as you are his follower but you add nothing.at times when pushed ....

Therefore - is ayat the same as hikmah or not? If it is not, then it is something outside the Qur'an.....yes it may be derived from the verses of the Qur'an but it CANT be the same thing.

Simple ....prove it otherwise .....

Also i totally agree with what brother Hamzeh has said to you too...you may want to read his post again and maybe again!!

137

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 07:04:54 AM »

Don't backtrack good logic.  You know what I'm saying....if hikmah is not ayat, then how can it be in the Quran? Do you know how absurd you sound as usual in my ópinion?

138

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 06:04:58 AM »

Good logic ...

The argument is whether ayat = hikmah - you seem to suggest that it is ...

Members on this thread say that this isn't always the case ....

I ask you again - show me in the video please where the brother says hikmah = hadith books.

You made an allegation.... "Deviating to say verses is not the same as Hikmah is just an excuse to accept other than GOD s words for the brother in the tape."

So please prove it.

139

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 05:35:53 AM »

Good logic --- then show me form the tape where he says hikmah means all the hadith books .... Show me the actual time from the video ...

You don't get my intention ... I never get most of your arguments ....

140

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: May 01, 2017, 04:06:45 AM »

Sorry Good Logic ... but you are once again missing the point .... No one on this thread is stating that Hikmah is not from Allah's words... That's precisely the point ... it is .... It comes from it .... However, you think that just because we say that Hikmah comes from the ayat that we are automatically legitimizing hadith.... The traditional brother may be thinking that in the long run .. but he was right when he said that ayat is not the same as hikmah... I don't expect you to understand to be honest ... you seldom do in my personal opinion on a lot of matters ..... But my point needs to be made too buddy ....

141

General Discussions / Re: Dialogue between sunni muslims and a quran alone muslim

« on: April 30, 2017, 09:12:18 PM »

hence we should accept the prophet s sayings as well as Qoran is WRONG!

Good logic .......where did the traditional brother say this in the video? He may be inplying this but the focus on the point of discussion was if ayat and hikmah were the same thing......

I think you missed the point on this thread too.....no one is saying hikmah means you have to accept the hadith .....hikmah can be beyond that...i think you are missing the point...again.

What is being agreed to is that hikmah can and may not be just the simple verses. 

142

General Discussions / Re: 36:41 - Are we all from the people of the Ark?

« on: April 26, 2017, 10:58:37 PM »

And we domesticated dogs 33 thousands years ago

What absolutely - undeniable ...irrefutable evidence you have for this??

Also isn't 14:9 and 25:38 proof of a long gap between thamud and abraham

No - I see no actual timelines in dates ....could be any dates ...

And 23:42-44

No - I see nothing .... no actual timelines ....

But maybe when you do the maths population of the earth it would put noah flood around about 22 thousand bc

Where did you get that from? What evidence??

Because we know the population of the earth at 10 thousand bc was only 1 million to 2 million

So? When was Adam actually born? Do you know? do you have actual evidence from the Qur'an?


I am really not sure why you are so obsessed with determining a timeline when the Qur'an doesn't give you one ......

143

General Discussions / Re: Meaning of 55:72 Restrained

« on: April 22, 2017, 04:43:32 PM »

Yahya ...i think you need to quit saying 'some say'. At times you ask the most ridiculous question in my view with that pretext....You have been on this forum long enough to know that we take evidence from the qur'an.....so why do you keep bringing things up of what others say but is not in the Qur'an with at times the most irrelevant questions How long have you been studying the Qur'an??

144

General Discussions / Re: Meaning of 55:72 Restrained

« on: April 22, 2017, 12:29:05 AM »

Yea but what does it mean by restrained also will men and women be able to talk to each other like will men be able to talk to the prophets wife's but in a non sexaul way and will women be able too do what they want that they won't be hidden away or that they can't leave there gardens area etc

Peace / shalom Yahya ....please forgive me for saying this and i don't mean this in a bad way but you have asked ridiculous questions in my opinion.

145

General Discussions / Re: Understanding what is doubts in the quran

« on: April 14, 2017, 05:29:27 AM »

Shalom / peace Ilker ...to answer your question ....
We just have to accept that there are some time specific verses in the Quran.....ive given you an example ....Can't put it more simply than that.....the rest ofcourse is up to you ....

146

General Discussions / Re: Understanding what is doubts in the quran

« on: April 14, 2017, 03:27:38 AM »

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate.

"Desperate" is not a nice word to use here, sounds belittling. I don't know what "covenant" are you talking about ? I haven't come across any translation with the word "covenant" for this surah.

Please can i suggest then you look up more translations ...please? ...what is lilafi quraishin then? I don't think anyone can really be sure. ....that's my point.....

Also I told you not to get me wrong.  I wasn't trying to belittle you.  I just found your argument desperate so I said it....no bad intentions intended....

Even brother Joseph mentions this surah in one of his articles ....of course much more eloquently than me ...but point i think is similar....

106.001-4
"For the covenants (of security and safeguard enjoyed) by the Quraish (Arabic: Lilafi Qurayshin) , Their covenants (covering) journeys by winter and summer, Let them adore the Lord of this House, Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear (of danger)"

·              Which covenant, where, what journey and what fear? We cannot ascertain any of these details from the 4 short verses. Indeed, historians attempt to furnish many different accounts of what happened, often seriously contradictory. Clearly, an assessment of these sources indicates that even the historians were non the wiser. In the end, no matter what version of the historian's report one accepts, the conclusion is the same.  It really does not matter what the details were other than the acknowledgment that this remains a time specific Surah (Chapter) for a certain people of a bygone era. And of course, any other inference that is readily obvious from the 4 verses.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

So my question....what were the lilafi quraishin??

147

General Discussions / Re: Understanding what is doubts in the quran

« on: April 14, 2017, 01:30:02 AM »

Duster, so you find surah Quraish irrelevant for our time ?

"Let them worship the Lord of this House, Who has fed them, [saving them] from hunger and made them safe, [saving them] from fear."

When you read this what do you think ? Who saves you from hunger and makes you safe ? Who feeds you ? Yes, situations/events are different ! Can you say what has been said about Quraysh doesn't concern you today ? I think "the message" is still relevant. Did you get my point ?

No not really....don't get me wrong but i think your point is a little desperate. Yes Allah provides, saves from hunger and gives safety to who He wills.  But the whole Surah which you didn't quote was referencing certain people and their particular covenants.....

Here is a translation without brackets....

106.001
For the covenants by the Quraish,

106.002
Their covenants journeys by winter and summer,-

106.003
Let them adore the Lord of this House,

106.004
Who provides them with food against hunger, and with security against fear.

Now we have the whole surah!! What were their exact covenants?? Do we know? Does the Quran tell us??? No!!!! So you see my point?? This was not intended to be a generic Surah but a specific one .....

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General Discussions / Re: Understanding what is doubts in the quran

« on: April 13, 2017, 11:35:52 PM »

My general understanding of quran that it is direct audience is the arabians lived in the era of its revelation. Not everything in it concerns us accept general guidelines. Quran must be understood in a historical frame which is bound by time and place of it is origin. I dont take everything literally from quran therefore your being feeling guilty or not regarding being doubtfull of anything in quran for my humble view is unnecessary.

Salam

Can you please give at least one example for an ayah/situation/event that doesn't concern us and/or benefit us or that we do not have to take as a lesson today ?

Shalom / peace Ilker  ....Try the whole of Surah Quraish. (Chapter 106).....4 verses....you see any relevance for us today?

149

General Discussions / Re: 36:41 - Are we all from the people of the Ark?

« on: April 10, 2017, 11:08:10 PM »

I get a feeling you are asking thamud type questions again that you've discussed on many other threads ...I would suggest finding the original threads and adding to them rather than polluting threads again or starting new threads .... I'm just conscious the number of times you've been warned and the mods doing it again .... like I said ... just a suggestion.

150

General Discussions / Re: 36:41 - Are we all from the people of the Ark?

« on: April 10, 2017, 07:33:29 PM »

Shalom / peace....Yes, and we also just spent a whole thread discussing it too!

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2303.msg11993#msg11993

We are from Prophet Noah's seed ......and he is from the seed of Adam. So we are ultimately from Adam. Just like I'm from my grandfather and he is ultimately from the seed of Noah and Adam......