Messages

166

General Discussions / Re: The Sura challenge.

« on: November 02, 2013, 05:31:40 PM »

In response to the sura challenge article http://quransmessage.com/articles/produce%20a%20surah%20FM3.htm. Where a conclusion is made that its a challenge at a specific time only, the time when the quran was revealed not for now. And that the reason why they cannot bring a chapter like it because they did not yet encompass it's knowledge (If my understanding is correct ). So does this means that once the Quran was completed the sura challenge was no longer valid ?

بَلْ كَذَّبُوا بِمَا لَمْ يُحِيطُوا بِعِلْمِهِ وَلَمَّا يَأْتِهِمْ تَأْوِيلُهُ كَذَٰلِكَ كَذَّبَ الَّذِينَ مِنْ قَبْلِهِمْ فَانْظُرْ كَيْفَ كَانَ عَاقِبَةُ الظَّالِمِينَ

The reason why the challenge could never be met is because, in principle, the contents of the Quran, as per 10:39, can  only be understood by the following means;

1.      Through human knowledge reaching such a point of advancement that it can comprehend the contents of the Quran;
2.      Through the results produced by a system based upon Quranic laws and values; and
3.      Through historical evidence showing what kind of results were produced by various systems in the past.

The mushriqeen deny the message and lack knowledge, understanding, and convinction in this regard.

Regards
Optimist

167

General Discussions / Re: How best to respond to this objection?

« on: October 30, 2013, 02:45:54 PM »

Salam Nura Well said!!! But Alas some Quranists do not believe in Allah's Miracles by telling that nothing happens other than routine law of Nature. This new trend is tearing the fabric of Allah's Miracles thus driving new generation to nuts!!!! Allah is all powerful to change the law of Nature

Salaam!

If anyone says Allah is NOT powerful to change the law of nature he is out of fold of Islam.  There is no doubt about that.  The issue of miracle is not linked to our salvation and it is not even a major aspect of Islam.  Therefore if someone says Allah sometimes does interfere with the laws of nature and another man says Allah does not interfere with the laws of nature we should show broadmindedness to tolerate both views.  There is one point we should always focus. Allah always invites people into Islam based on logic and reason and not based on miracles.  According to Quran miracles cannot guide people to the truth.

They say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord!" Say, "God surely has the Power to send down a miracle, but most of them do not use their knowledge." [He does not wish to stun the human intellect with supernatural phenomena. He wants people to reflect and use reason] 12:108

According to Quran the truth is NOT made supreme by exhibiting such signs. The opponents were asking why the Prophet not bringing a visible sign from Allah so that after seeing it everyone would express their belief.   The truth is made visible based on reason and logic.  Allah says "Just ask them, "Is there any line of logic or reasoning in the scriptures of earlier prophets, that you do not find in the Quran?" (20:133) 

“AND [only] those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a [miraculous] sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they say, spoke those who lived before their time: their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.” (2:118)

And We never sent before you (O Muhammad) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets. (25:20)

According to Quran Miracles cannot  make people believe; “And even if We send down unto them angels, and the dead speak to them, and We gather to them all things face to face, they would not believe” (6:111).  The nature of such people is stated at another place in the Quran in 15:14-15 as; “Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein. They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery".  Therefore inviting people towards the religion based miracles is alien to Allah's deen.  The invitation was always based on logic and reason.

Regards
Optimist

168

General Discussions / Your wives, who are like my daughters, are permitted for you?????

« on: October 21, 2013, 12:29:01 AM »

Salaam,

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=628.0

While going through the above thread, (I salute you brother Jospeh Islam for the explanation and the insight), I happened to read the interpretation given by Dr. Shabbir. 

Shabbir Ahmed   11:78
And the most iniquitous among his people came rushing to Lot. (They wanted the visiting messengers to approve their behavior.) Lot said, "O My people! Your wives, who are like my daughters, are permitted for you. Be mindful of God, and do not humiliate me in the presence of my guests. Is there not a single upright man among you?"

With all due respect to Dr. Shabbir,  I believe the underlined part totally contradicts what Quran has stated.  It goes against even logic  prophet Lut making such a comment in such a heightened state of emotion.  I completely agree with brother Jospeh Islam that it was a last ditch attempt from the part of prophet Lut to avert an imminent punishment.  According to me, even assuming prophet lut did not know about any imminent punishment, his comments were normal, (1) he was very much concerned about the safety of his guests and he was responsible to save them and to protect their honour (2) he knows from his experience that even if he offered his daughters they would not accept them which is clear from the very next verse, from their reply, "They said: "Well dost thou know we have no need of thy daughters: indeed thou knowest quite well what we want!".   

Many of our scholars, in their effort to "save"  prophet lut interpret the Quran differently.  I have noticed many use brackets to explain that his daughters were offered in marriage.   Anyhow, the interpretation given by Dr. Shabbir is very funny.

Regards
Optimist

169

General Discussions / Was Ayesha really a child bride?

« on: October 13, 2013, 09:22:02 PM »

Dear brother Joseph Islam,

I really liked your article, WAS AYESHA REALLY A CHILD BRIDE? - MARRIAGEABLE AGE FROM THE QURAN, especially your explanation regarding marriageable age from Quran.   It was highly focused and with great intelligence!

http://quransmessage.com/articles/ayesha%20age%20FM3.htm

Additionally, we cannot take hadiths as a source of evidence in this regard, because even prophet’s stay in Mecca is differently reported in hadiths as 10 years, 13 years & 15 years.

Bukhari Volume 7, Book 72, Number 787:  Narrated Anas bin Malik:

The Prophet was neither conspicuously tall, nor short; neither, very white, nor tawny. His hair was neither much curled, nor very straight. Allah sent him (as an Apostle) at the age of forty (and after that) he stayed for ten years in Mecca, and for ten more years in Medina. Allah took him unto Him at the age of sixty, and he scarcely had ten white hairs on his head and in his beard.
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/072-sbt.php

Bukhari Volume 5, Book 58, Number 190: Narrated Ibn 'Abbas:
Allah's Apostle was inspired Divinely at the age of forty. Then he stayed in Mecca for thirteen years, and then was ordered to migrate, and he migrated to Medina and stayed there for ten years and then died
http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/bukhari/058-sbt.php

Muslim Book 030, Number 5809:
Ibn 'Abbas reported that Allah's Messenger (may peace be upon him) stayed in Mecca for fifteen years (after his advent as a Prophet) and he heard the voice of Gabriel and saw his radiance for seven years but did not see any visible form, and then received revelation for ten years, and he stayed in Medina for ten years.

http://www.usc.edu/org/cmje/religious-texts/hadith/muslim/030-smt.php

Regards,
Optimist

170

General Discussions / hypothetical question..!!

« on: September 22, 2013, 07:51:22 PM »

Salaam!

Firstly, let me state that this is my final posting under this thread. Under no circumstance I shall post any further comments since I had earlier participated in a discussion related to this topic.  

This is just a hypothetical question with reference to the birth of  Jesus.   Appreciate pointing out if there are any logical error.  As we all know, it is repeated mentioned many times in Quran to use our logic.  The purpose of this post is for me to know if there is error in the logic. 

The Question:  What will be the normal reaction of a righteous girl, if someone, let’s say an angel, informs her about good news about birth of a son.  Let me list down the probable answers. 

(a)  If she is married, she will assume that the news is about having a son in the wedlock.  In Mary’s case, from the reaction, "How shall I have a son since no man has touched me, and I am not unchaste" (19:20), and it is also therefore clear that she is not married. 

(b). If she is unmarried, in the normal circumstances, she will consider that the good news is about a future prospect of having a son in a wedlock.  This is quite normal.

©.  However, an unmarried girl, ONLY IF, she understood the good news to mean ALSO that she is already pregnant, THEN there is a ‘possibility’ to react “how can I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not unchaste”  (BECAUSE Here she ignores the possibility of getting married in future because she is already pregnant).    It may be the reason why most scholars explain that when the good news was conveyed to Mary she was already pregnant.    HOWEVER, even under this circumstance, there are logical questions to be answered;  (1) There is no evidence in the Quran to show that Mary was conveyed that she was already pregnant; only good news about the birth of a son was conveyed to her. (2) There is no proof Mary had knowledge that she is already pregnant.  (3)  The additional comment "I am not unchaste"  is rather unnecessary since no man has touched me is sufficient as a reaction (3) The most important point.   If Mary HAD UNDERSTOOD the news to mean that she was already pregnant, the most probable reaction would have been, “how I am pregnant when no man has touched me” (because her initial shock and concern should be how she got pregnant, not the birth of the son in future). 

(d)  If an unmarried girl who is leading a life as a nun (whether she knows she is pregnant of not) and who believes that she is not supposed to marry in future, it is perfectly logical to react “how can I have a son when no man has touched me and I am not unchaste”.  Please note the most important point here.  Mary is NOT thinking here about a marriage prospect in future at all.   

Regards
Optimist

171

General Discussions / Re: Space exploration?

« on: September 14, 2013, 03:15:03 AM »

Qur'an 55:33 "O ye assembly of Jinns and men! If it be ye can pass beyond the zones of the heavens and the earth, pass ye! not without authority shall ye be able to pass!"

As salaam alaikum. Please can anyone shed some light on this verse. Does it refer to some sort of space exploration or something else? Thanks

You should tell humanity that the hold of Divine Law of Mukafat encompasses the entire universe.  If you are thinking of getting outside its ambit, it will only be possible if you cross the bounds of heavens; and just make an attempt if you believe that you can achieve that.  However for this you would need Divine sanction, and no one can get that.   You will thus have to stay within this universe in which the Law of Mukafat is prevalent everywhere.  You cannot escape from it.3

3  This can also mean that the extent of evolutionary dimensions or human ‘self’ is such that depending on its abilities, it can outgrow the bounds of the material; but for this a specific vigor, which cannot be attained without obedience to the Divine Laws, is required.  Human ‘self’ can acquire immorality by being subservient to these laws.  That is the life of the Jannah of the Hereafter.  This is what crossing the bounds of the heavens and earth means.  But with relevance to the verses that follow we have preferred the meaning narrated above.

http://www.tolueislam.org/Parwez/expo/expo_055.htm

172

General Discussions / Re: forgiving

« on: August 29, 2013, 03:17:52 PM »

Where does Afuw fit in. 

Afwun literally means to give something up, to obliterate.   Afa unhu means allowed him to go without punishment.  In verse 42:40 after stating the principle that the punishment should always be befitting the crime, Quran goes on to state that wamun afa wa aslaha fa-ajruhu alal laah, which means if the prosecutor forgives and in this way paves the way  for the reform of the criminal then Allah will repay such a person.   Thus justice means repentance or reform and vengeful punishment is awarded only when there is no chance of reform and right conduct from the part of the criminal.  Similarly, after relating the mistakes of children of Israel in sura bakarah it is said “summa afauna unkum”, which means overlooking or forgiving whereby paving the way for reformation and right conduct. 

Assalamu alaikum

Regards
Optimist

173

General Discussions / Re: forgiving

« on: August 27, 2013, 02:38:29 PM »

just to make a point clear.....

verse 20:82 states "But, surely, I am  لَغَفَّارٌ  to him who repents and believes and does virtuous deeds, then sticks to guidance.'   Therefore, Magfirat is available only to those who leave erroneous path and do virtuous deeds and also  remain steadfastedly on that right path and only then will the results of their previous misdeeds be erased.  Continuously getting involved in positive deeds and constructive actions, and consistently remaining on the right path will minimize the evil results of misdeeds and additionally it will create a force within a person that protects him from evil forces.  In other words, apart from protecting one from the evil-effects (of the wrongful deeds done),  it will give one sufficient strength to resist the destructive forces in life. 

I respect your comments also.

Assalamu alaikum

Optimist

174

General Discussions / Re: forgiving

« on: August 26, 2013, 11:08:25 PM »

Salaam!

You asked;

How will you get into Allah's protection without doing anything?  The question is not clear to me. Did I say we can get protection without doing anything?   Do you imply we can get Allah's forgiveness without doing anything?

How am I going to vie with others for His protection?  The answer is simple.  Compete with each other to leave the erroneous path, and to get involved in positive deeds and actions which will not only undo or cure the damage done, but also start giving healthy results.  Can you tell me how am I going to vie with others for His forgiveness?   Is it to start competing each other for the number of times to ask forgiveness?  Please explain.

Also, kindly give some respect to the linguistic meaning I quoted above.

Regards,
Optimist

175

General Discussions / Re: forgiving

« on: August 26, 2013, 04:01:36 AM »

In 3:133, al-muttaqeen seek ways to get  Maghfiratin/ forgiveness from the Lord;

Salaam,

The meaning of Maghfirat is "protection" and "forgiveness" is not an apt translation.  It is seeking protection from Allah that is what is mentioned in the verse.

Ghafoor - (Ghain-Fa-Ra):

One of the Attributes of Allah is that He is the one who provides Maghfirah.

Ghafrun is to make someone wear something which would protect him from filth or dirt (Moheet).  As such it has basic meaning of covering and protecting. It also means to conceal or put cover;  Ghafaral mata’aa fil wi’aa’ee  means he put valuables in a utensil and then concealed (thereby protecting) it (Tajul Uroose).   Al-Mighfaru and al-ghifaratu: armour built from iron rings that is worn underneath the main armor and which covers the shoulders and neck so that the wearer can be kept safe from any attack of a sword or spear etc.   Al-Ghifaratu is a bandage which women usually wear over the head to protect the head-covering from getting spoiled by the oily hair. Al-Jamm’ol-Ghafeer is that helmet which covers the entire head and thus protects it.

So this makes the meaning of Maghfirah to mean protection. When a nation travels on a wrong track, the effects of evil-deeds start appearing. But anytime before a people perish or get closer to destruction, Allah the Almighty has provided alternate ways for it to recover. If a people leave the wrong path, come back and undo the wrong (this is called Taubah), and then start going on the correct path, the positive deeds not only undo or cure the damage done, but also start giving healthy results. So it not only protects them from evil-effects, but also provides them nourishment for further growth. This is the Maghfirah of that nation.  Accordingly, author of Moheet writes that Istighf'ar means to desire correction and protection from a damaging or mischievous thing by undertaking positive actions. Maghfirah also means to save a person from the punishment which has become due on account of his misdeeds (Moheet).   The process of reforming ones wrongs is called ‘taubah’.

Maghfirah is usually translated as forgiveness. The Quranic Law of Requital, however, entirely negates the very conception of forgiveness. Every human action, according to this Law, has a natural and logical outcome.  Positive deeds strengthen his "self" and he remains immune from the effects of the destructive forces. This state can only be achieved by performing constructive deeds continuously.   With reference to the natural Law of Return, every deed has a result.  Wrong deeds produce wrong results and good deeds produce delightful results.  The act of blessing forgiveness of a wrong deed with a wrong result is a meaningless thing.  The concept is produced by the monarchy system where the king used to forgive the crime or faults of his subjects.   The Quranic reward for good deeds is the environment of Jannat.  This can only be achieved through good deeds and not through some benevolence.   The Quran says that good deeds create a force within a person that protects him from evil forces.  This is quranic meaning of maghfirat of Allah.

Allah is Merciful i.e. by following His laws this sort of energy can be created and it is incumbent upon the momins that they continue to do this istighfaar, i.e. do good deeds that create this protective force within themselves. As such the Quran says maghfirat in 2:221 and ghufraan in 2:285. These words mean protection and sanctuary.  Ghaafir in 7:155, ghafoor in 7:153 and ghaffar in 20:82 would mean one who provides protection with the difference that ghaafir is a verbal noun or gerund and ghafoor and ghaffar are nouns of exaggeration. 

We see that a weakened man is quickly attacked by some disease than others.  This means that this man's protective or defensive forces have become weak hence he  cannot fight the germs successfully.  The first prerequisite, therefore, for the prevention of disease is one's internal resistance; that is to say, his body should have sufficient internal strength to withstand an attack by forces detrimental to its health. If, however, the attack proves too strong and the person falls ill, his resistance must be strengthened so as to prevent the disease from taking a fatal turn and to effect its cure. This preventive and curative process would be called Maghfirah.

Faithful compliance of the Laws of Allah gives man sufficient strength to resist the destructive forces in life. But if he should ever fall into error and be guilty of infringing these Laws, and his personality should consequently be weakened, the remedy would lie in good conduct calculated to recuperate and strengthen his personality and save him from the harmful effects of his lapse. This is called Maghfirah.

176

Discussions / Re: Ourbeacon Forum

« on: August 25, 2013, 09:01:05 PM »

He even tries to give the impression that Parwez never really did salaat or Allama Iqbal never really fasted. Why go to great lengths to prove this?

There is also one Prof Ismail Dhoraji, Bahrain who every now and then post same post, over and over again, two to three months gap, with same subject "Allama Parwez as I knew him".  I quote one interesting note included in all his posts , "It took decades after the 1950s until the Almighty matured up my dear son Dr Shabbir Ahmed of Florida and he started re-examining, revisiting, addressing and improving the great works of Allama G.A.P. He also did some marvelous works that the Allama had left undone".   Reading between the line we can easily know the purpose of the post.

If Prof Ismail, who claim to be close to Parwez, had really known the works undertaken by Allama Parwez he would not have posted the above comment.  Other than QXP (that mainly rely on the interpretation of Quran done by Parwez),  how many scholarly works Dr. Shabbir has undertaken, except highly provocative books like "Criminals in Islam"??

Regards
Optimist

177

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 19, 2013, 09:28:18 PM »

However, if we read 'nikaah' as 'sexual intercourse' (literally) in verse 24:3 in an isolated sense as it seems to have been asserted earlier in this thread, then the following verse would seem to sanction illicit coitus. This would be an unacceptable inference.

"The fornicator (zani) shall not 'have sexual intercourse' with any but a fornicatress or idolatress (mushrikatan)".

Hence this is why I completely reject the notion of reading this passage in an isolated sense.

Thank you for all your comments.   This will be my final post in this thread.   I believe there is nothing in verse 24:3 to suggest to give sanction for illicit coitus assuming we take the meaning 'sexual intercourse'.  The problem is with translation.   Based on the interpretation of the verse you have provided above,  if we replace 'sexual intercourse' with marriage, it would mean that Allah is providing saction to a fornicator to MARRY a fornicatress or idolatress (mushrikatan)!!!  The question of giving sanction or direction to fornicator to marry none except fornicatress or idolatress does not arise at all.  The accurate translation (assuming we provide meaning "marriage") would be, "The adulterer marries not but an adulteress or a Mushrikah".  This is what the Arabic states.  Similarly, the accurate translation if we give the other meaning, it would be "the adulterer couples with none other than an adulteress or a Mushrikah" (Mohamed Asad translation and it seems to me more appropriate here).  It is just a statement of fact that is mentioned in this statement of Allah and no confusion is created here.

Assalamu alaikum

Regards,
Optimist

178

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 19, 2013, 06:28:14 PM »

Salaam!

Let us forget about Parwez and his explanations.  Parwez can not be the final word in understandng of the Quran.  He is just a human being and he can go wrong.  However, it is our duty to understand the verse correctly.   Therefore, apart from a valid question Nura has asked above, I have the following questions. 

1. If it is a direction not to marry an adulterer or adulteress what will happen if a married man or woman found guilty of adultery? whether the existing marriage will be nullified due to the directive in 24:3, i.e, whether it is mandatory for the partner to seek divorce from the one found guilty of adultery??

2. If Muslims are prophibited to marry an adulteror or adulteress convicted for adultery, it would mean that this is an additional punishment  for them over and above 100 lashes mentioned in 24:2.  In other words, a lifetime punishment for them prohibiting them to get married except those similiary found guilty and a mushriq.   How justified this understanding as per verse 24:2? 

3. There is an element of forgiveness clearly mentioned in chapter 25:68-71,  where Allah promises forgiveness to those involved in adultery, if there is true repentance as tested by a changed life in conduct, and the verse states this will transform the life of the repentant from evil to good.   This being the fact, how come a life-time punishment prohibiting to get married (except with those similarly found guilty and mushriq) could be attracted against those who found guilty of adultery?

Expecting comments from you based on your time and convenience.

Regards
Optimist

179

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 19, 2013, 03:32:17 AM »

Salaam,

I would like to add one more comment with my following comments in an earlier post.

Let me quote Muhammed Asad translation below and explain the point.
AND [know that] women advanced in years, who no longer feel any sexual desire, incur no sin if they discard their [outer] garments, provided they do not aim at a showy display of [their] charms. (24:60)

LOGICALLY,  based on traditional understanding of the verse,  it would mean that, only those who DO NOT wish to marry are exempted.  What will happen if someone does not wish to marry but have sexual desire?    I hope you can understand the contradiction here.  THINK.   Muhammed Asad has given the best interpretation of the verse.

There is also another important point to be considered.  If we translate the word nikah as marriage here, it would mean that the permission to relax the dress code is given only to UNMARRIED elder women and THAT TOO  women who do not have any intention or desire to get married.   It would effectively mean that more than 95% of elder women (whatever be their age) cannot  enjoy the exemption provided in the verse.   Only a handful of women can enjoy the benefit.   And also, logically, it is not convincing why different rules for elder women based on desire to "marry".   I prefer to go with Muhammed Asad translation “who no longer feel any sexual desire” instead of traditional understanding of “marriage”

Regards
Optimist

180

General Discussions / Re: Marriage eligibility

« on: August 19, 2013, 03:27:16 AM »

Dear all,

As-salam alaykum

Just as an additional note that may assist this thread is that I feel it is important to remember that these individuals are 'believers' who have been 'convicted' (24:2) of 'zina' i.e. found guilty. This can be clearly ascertained through the context of the verses. This is not a small matter. 

Wassalam,

I believe there is nothing in verse 24:3 to suggest that the  adulterer and adulteress mentioned in 24:3 is related to those individuals who have been found guilty, convicted and punished  (24:2).  I think it is a general statement regarding adulterer and adulteress (whether they are caught, found guilty or not).

Regards
Optimist