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Offline Mubashir

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How best to respond to this objection?
« on: September 27, 2013, 04:19:10 PM »
[Recently I read the following on the net, aimed at those who wish to Judge ahadith and all secondary sources by the Quran]

Many Quranites tend to point out hadith, which may seem strange or too supernatural in order to believe it. This is nothing more than an "appeal to emotion" fallacy. Here is the testimony of one Quranite who became an agnostic...

"...I was in the middle of laughing at the stories and silently mocking them, when suddenly it hit me that they are no more absurd than the belief that Jesus was born of a virgin, that Moses split the ocean and turned a stick into a snake, or that Solomon had conversations with animals..."

So here we see a Quranite who left Islam because he found the virgin birth and Solomon's conversations with animals to be absurd. These are to be found in the Qur'an. Will the Quranites accept this as an argument? They will say that these stories are not absurd and that people must put faith in them. Well then why don't the Quranites do the same with the hadith that they find strange? Who draws the objective standard as to what is too absurd to be true?

This is nothing more than an "appeal to emotion fallacy" and it is to be ignored.

Offline Ismail

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2013, 09:26:45 AM »
Salaam.

Explicit statements like Jesus was born to a virgin are not in the Qur'an. The final authoritative statement regarding the birth of Prophet Jesus is: 3:59, 3:60:

The similitude of Jesus before Allah is as that of Adam. He created him of dust, then said to him: "Be": And he was.

The Truth (comes) from thy Lord Alone; so be not of those who doubt

Commenting of this, Abdulla Yusuf Ali writes:

"The truth does not necessarily come from priests, or from the superstition of whole peoplesl It comes from Allah, and where there is a direc13223t revelation, there is no room for doubt."

That  Moses split  the ocean and  turned a stick into a snake is the antithesis of Quran.

Moses had no hand in such things. They were the handiwork of God Almighty as and when He willed.

Yet, some exegetes have given what they call rational explanations to such narratives.

Conversations with animals are not that strange. Even ordinary people do it to a reasonable degree.

If a great and wise man like King Solomon could understand the gestures or whatever of a bird called hudhud, it is not at all surprising.

I, a lay man, can give you some feeble examples from my ownlife, regarding certain encounters with pet animals.

Yet, certain exegetes have interpreted the whole encounter of Prophet Sulaiman with Hudhud as being a dialogue between the king and a member of his intelligence department, codenamed Hudhud. Exegetes have proved this pointing to the language of the Qur'an.

See, for example: Thafseer Bayanullinnas of Kwaja Ahmeduddeen Amritsery. (for all the three above examples.)

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.








Offline Nura

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #2 on: October 02, 2013, 06:46:37 PM »
Salam

Equating the Quran’s message with that of the Hadith books is not reasonable because the source of these are not the same. The Quran has a divine origin. The Quran itself constantly gives proofs of its divine origin. The decision to not belief in hadiths should not stem from only the fact that some of them are not reasonable. It should stem from the fact that the hadith books are not authorized by Allah. They are not of divine origin.The approach of the said Quranist towards hadiths was probably not based on the question of authorization. The Hadith books are not authorized by Allah, the question of their authenticity or believing in them as divine is obsolete. If, a person can prove to me using verses from the Quran only that, the hadiths were authorized by Allah, have a divine origin, that Allah revealed the hadiths alongside the Quran as a source of guidance, and explain why then does the Quran claim to be the final revelation from Allah and the sole source of religious guidance for believers and also why there is the need of sorting ahadiths if they are truly from Allah.I would have no objection in believing in seemingly absurd hadiths.

As far as understanding the miracles in the Quran are concerned, one thing that should be kept in mind is that we are subservient to the laws of nature created by Allah, but Allah is not. He does not require a pair of humans to create another, as in the case of Adam or He can create a human from just another human as in the case of Jesus.
Prophet Moses split the ocean and turned his stick to a snake, Prophet Solomon could talk to animals these are just some of the examples of God manifesting his might using them as a medium. Moreover, it is always mentioned in the Quran that these Prophets did these things with Allah’s help. The above mentioned prophets never claimed to have done these by themselves. They always said that these things were done by Allah, but manifested through them.

Allah also manifests his might through the actions of normal humans everyday. The birth of a child is Allah’s miracle manifested via the parents. Allah used the parents as a medium to create a new life. No one can say that the parents created the child. Atheists can claim that the child is a result of the laws of biology, but the laws of biology was created by Allah, so He created the child. So, it was not the Prophets who were doing these seemingly absurd things, it was Allah doing those things using the prophets as a medium. Allah is capable of all things, He is the creator, above all limitations unlike his creation bound by limitations.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #3 on: October 04, 2013, 06:27:18 PM »
Salam Nura Well said!!! But Alas some Quranists do not believe in Allah's Miracles by telling that nothing happens other than routine law of Nature. This new trend is tearing the fabric of Allah's Miracles thus driving new generation to nuts!!!! Allah is all powerful to change the law of Nature
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Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #4 on: October 30, 2013, 02:43:48 AM »
The Quranists take Allah.s declaration in Quran the He does not change His laws but in certain circumstances He doed
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Offline optimist

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #5 on: October 30, 2013, 07:45:54 AM »
Salam Nura Well said!!! But Alas some Quranists do not believe in Allah's Miracles by telling that nothing happens other than routine law of Nature. This new trend is tearing the fabric of Allah's Miracles thus driving new generation to nuts!!!! Allah is all powerful to change the law of Nature

Salaam!

If anyone says Allah is NOT powerful to change the law of nature he is out of fold of Islam.  There is no doubt about that.  The issue of miracle is not linked to our salvation and it is not even a major aspect of Islam.  Therefore if someone says Allah sometimes does interfere with the laws of nature and another man says Allah does not interfere with the laws of nature we should show broadmindedness to tolerate both views.  There is one point we should always focus. Allah always invites people into Islam based on logic and reason and not based on miracles.  According to Quran miracles cannot guide people to the truth.

They say, "If only a miracle could come down to him from his Lord!" Say, "God surely has the Power to send down a miracle, but most of them do not use their knowledge." [He does not wish to stun the human intellect with supernatural phenomena. He wants people to reflect and use reason] 12:108

According to Quran the truth is NOT made supreme by exhibiting such signs. The opponents were asking why the Prophet not bringing a visible sign from Allah so that after seeing it everyone would express their belief.   The truth is made visible based on reason and logic.  Allah says "Just ask them, "Is there any line of logic or reasoning in the scriptures of earlier prophets, that you do not find in the Quran?" (20:133) 

“AND [only] those who are devoid of knowledge say, "Why does God not speak unto us, nor is a [miraculous] sign shown to us?" Even thus, like unto what they say, spoke those who lived before their time: their hearts are all alike. Indeed, We have made all the signs manifest unto people who are endowed with inner certainty.” (2:118)

And We never sent before you (O Muhammad) any of the Messengers but verily, they ate food and walked in the markets. (25:20)

According to Quran Miracles cannot  make people believe; “And even if We send down unto them angels, and the dead speak to them, and We gather to them all things face to face, they would not believe” (6:111).  The nature of such people is stated at another place in the Quran in 15:14-15 as; “Even if We opened out to them a gate from heaven, and they were to continue (all day) ascending therein. They would only say: "Our eyes have been intoxicated: Nay, we have been bewitched by sorcery".  Therefore inviting people towards the religion based miracles is alien to Allah's deen.  The invitation was always based on logic and reason.

Regards
Optimist
The meaning which was lost in all our divisions will not be understood until our perceptions become untainted -  Allama Iqbal

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #6 on: October 31, 2013, 12:29:25 AM »
Bro Mubashir,Salam, You are right the Ahadith are not to be believed because the narration comes from one person and goes on from one to another. Narration goes through umpteen persons but the originator is only one. Now take the directive of Quran for witness. For a transaction there are Two Witnesses required. Therefore as Hadith narration comes from one witness it is not reliable as per Quran.
Now, it is clearly mentioned in Quran about virgin birth of Jesus. Why should Allah tell us the birth of Jesus is as that of Adam? Which clearly means that as Adam had no father similarly prophet Jesus. Do we not believe in four birds were scattered in four places to show Prophet Ibrahim  all came back as per Allah's Miracle. So is the case of Moses who's stick became snake & another time the Ocean was split to allow the followers of Moses to cross peacefully. Talking to animals & understanding their language is as per Allah's will. Prophet Jesus cured the blind & resurrected the dead by Allah's will.
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Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #7 on: November 20, 2013, 03:09:21 PM »
Salaam ,

I feel that the hardcore Quranists are in a pickle when it comes to the miracles mentioned in the Quran.

As they believe that the Quran is the word of God, they are not able to just dismiss the miracles away as they do with the ones mentioned in the ahadith.

Instead they have resorted to changing the core meanings of well known Arabic words to circumvent what are clearly described as miracles. They have even resorted to describing 'jinn' as wondering desert tribes, which I find astounding.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #8 on: November 22, 2013, 09:12:16 PM »
Salam Bro Mubashir , I don't understand what you have to tell. The Quranist do not believe in Miracles mentioned in Quran , OK but do they believe in Hadith? The Quranist have left Islam but what the relation with Hadith here. Can you please elaborate ? Thanks
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Offline Mubashir

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #9 on: February 10, 2014, 01:17:21 AM »
Br. Sardar, Sorry for the delayed reply.

I know that there are a few Quranists who explain certain events in the Quran a particular way to prove that Allah does not change His laws, therefore there is no possibility of miracles. Besides, they suggest, Allah clearly states that to those bent on rejection, no miracle is enough. Which leads me to believe that the possibility of a miracle is acknowledged by Allah SWT.

Then there other Quran centrics, who believe that Allah can suspend His Laws of nature if and when He wills, therefore, the birth of Jesus, splitting of the sea, the staff turning into a snake, the chopping of four birds and then regaining life, is possible. They also refer to similar Biblical narratives and reason that if those were to be taken allegorically, Allah would have made that clear but that is not the case.

Not related to miracle, but relating to theology, Allah deemed it important to clarify that the notion of Trinity found in the New Testament is wrong and that Jesus is not divine. Point is that He corrects some wrong notions that people of the Book had. However, He did not do that for miracles.

Now, for the argument by Hadith believers that if most Quran centric have no problem believing in super natural events in the Quran, why do they not extend the same to Hadith stories?

I think the reply to them is that of the source of information. We know that the Quran is from Allah from the internal testimony it contains, therefore we believe in it.  We cannot say the same for Hadith books as neither they claim to be Allah's Word, nor Allah or His Nabi certifies them as divinely inspired books. They exist in two different versions (Shia and Sunni) and both sects claim to be the real Muslims based on their favorite books. These books were written down, based on hearsay generations after the Quran. When Allah declared completion of Deen, they were nowhere to be found. The first four caliphs did not make it an urgent business of theirs to collect, verify, compile and publish them for all times to come. They were smart enough to know what happens to stories based on hearsay over time and over generations!

For the Quran centric, to avoid taking hadith books as an authority in Deen should not be based solely on questioning certain super natural events described therein. They should have much more solid rational reasons, some of which I have listed above. Others have been explained on this forum by much more learned friends on this forum.



 

Offline Wakas

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #10 on: February 10, 2014, 01:14:01 PM »
peace Mubashir, all,

You raise an interesting/important question. I have not studied all the alleged "miracles" in The Quran, however I can tell you what I have studied, perhaps you will find it helpful.

Re: virgin birth of Isa
To my knowledge, it is actually scientifically possible and supported somewhat by Quran, see my comments here:
Quote
There is discussion here on whether Jesus was born to a virgin or not. The minority of people here think he was not. Most think he was, including myself.

In terms of the "miraculous" nature, there is some weighting that Mary was hermaphrodite/intersex. This is mainly based on:

So when she delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil." [3:36]

Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into him/it (fee hi) from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were dutiful. [66:12]

And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her (fee ha) from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds. [21:91]

hi = him/it
ha = her


It would still have required a very unique event, but Mary being hermaphrodite/intersex would explain it somewhat. This is my current view.

References for background reading:
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Quote:
True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.

Complex or Undetermined Intersex Disorders of Sexual Development. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in an intersex condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.


#####


Re: Moses and parting of the sea
Again, that is actually scientifically possible. You can research it online but the main explanations given are: how a tsunami can cause a body of water to retreat and then advance rapidly, or, a phenomenon called "wind setdown".


Offline Zack

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #11 on: February 10, 2014, 02:06:12 PM »
peace Mubashir, all,

You raise an interesting/important question. I have not studied all the alleged "miracles" in The Quran, however I can tell you what I have studied, perhaps you will find it helpful.

Re: virgin birth of Isa
To my knowledge, it is actually scientifically possible and supported somewhat by Quran, see my comments here:
Quote
Re: Moses and parting of the sea
Again, that is actually scientifically possible. You can research it online but the main explanations given are: how a tsunami can cause a body of water to retreat and then advance rapidly, or, a phenomenon called "wind setdown".

There is a dangerous trend I see in Islam......the removal of the miraculous from their belief, replaced by only belief in what can be scientifically proven. All miracles are explained away......If this is the case, I would give 50 years before the world will be full of Islamic atheists. That is the logical next step. Islam by name, atheist by belief and practice. As the cycle turns a mass interest in New Age mysticism. .....

Offline Wakas

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #12 on: February 10, 2014, 04:34:01 PM »
peace daniel,

Firstly, I can understand a reaction such as yours, but rather than speculation, I prefer to weigh and consider the evidence. For example, do you have an explanation for the Quranic verses I referenced with regard to virgin birth of Isa?

Secondly, I think there are already those who are "Muslim" by name but atheist in belief/practice. Regarding the trend you speak of I am actually familiar with it, as I have discussed somewhat on the issue with Quran-based muslims who remove "miracles" from their understanding, and/or God intervening in our lives etc. A question I like to pose them is to explain how we got The Quran (which they invariably believe to be the Word of God) - try it, the answers can be interesting and quite amusing, but ultimately unsatisfactory in my view.

And lastly, please reflect upon the meaning of "miracle":

miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

Note how knowledge/understanding is intimately intertwined with "miracle", e.g. if you were to visit an ancient Amazonian tribe in South America today who had little/no contact with the "West" and were to make fire with a laser a mile away (or whatever) they may consider it a miracle. But is it? Reflect.

Offline Ismail

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #13 on: February 10, 2014, 06:23:21 PM »
Salaam.

For the pronoun in 66:12, we have the noun farj, which is masculine.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Offline Wakas

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Re: How best to respond to this objection?
« Reply #14 on: February 10, 2014, 11:28:42 PM »
w/salaam Ismail,

Do you have an opinion on 3:36?