Jin

[Sardar Miyan]

While most of the muslims believe in the existance Jin, other than Ins (Insan),Dr Shabbir interprates Jin as people living away from regular community in towns & cites i.e,Nomads while Allah uses two words i.e. Jin O Ins.How can we call Nomads as Jins ?Can some brothers help me to undrestand the existance of Jins? Thanks

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

The explanation of jinn that Dr Shabbir gives is odd. From my understanding of the Quran, the jinn are clearly a separate creation. The word jinn shares the same root as jannah. It means something that is 'concealed or 'hidden'. Jinn are created from a type of fire or 'confused flame' Iblis is also a jinn. They have also been created before man.

Created from fire:

15.27:
"And the jinn did We create aforetime of essential fire."

7.12:
"He said: What hindered you so that you did not prostrate when I commanded you? He said: I am better than he: Thou hast created me of fire, while him Thou didst create of dust."

They like us are meant to serve God:

51.56:
"And I have not created the jinn and the men except that they should serve Me."

Some will be destined for hell just as some humans will be:

11.119:
"Except those on whom your Lord has mercy; and for this did He create them; and the word of your Lord is fulfilled: Certainly I will fill hell with the jinn and the men, all together."

If the jinn were 'nomads' it doesn't make sense when looking at the above verses as nomads are still of the human race. Why would they be mentioned separately when surely they are subject to God's Laws just like any of us. Also if we look at 15.27 then that would mean (according to Dr Sahbbir's explanation) that nomads were created before humankind.

[Mubashir]

Dear All, just to share another point of view and add to the discussion,  according to Parwez, following is an explanation of Jinn:

Jinn – (Jeem-noon-noon).

Janna means hidden. According to Raghib, it means, not only hidden from the eyes but also from senses – In verse 6/77 the Qur’an says “When the night spread darkness over him, he saw a star. Jananun, means grave, as it hides the dead body. Iblees is also a Jinn as this force remains hidden from the eyes (18/30)

Janeen, is an infant in mother’s womb – Junnantun – is the shield or any weapon with which a person protects himself (58/16). – Jinnatun – means madness (23/25). The Arabs thought that majnoon was a person who was afflicted by a Jinn. According to Raghib ‘al-Jinno’ is being used in two ways. Firstly all the hidden forces (spiritual, positive) and in this context it also includes “angels”, and those hidden forces which are evil are called ‘Shiateen” (Taj, Raghib). The Qur’an also mentions about the Arabs doing worship of Jinn and there it means “angels” (37/158) (Taj, Raghib).

The earth was in the beginning, in the form of a molten fire and it took billions of years to cool down to a tolerable temperature when it was suitable for the habitation of mankind. Before this there existed some creation, of which man was the successor (Khalifa). That specie was created out of fire (15/27). That specie is extinct now – and is referred to as ‘al-jaann’.

The Qur’an has referred to and addresses ‘Jinn and Ins’ in many verses together. Ins, (as explained under the heading ‘Ins) means tribes settled at a place, and Jinn means those Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts of forests away from cities. In Arabia such people were great in number. Since the message of the Qur’an was for both the types, it has pointedly addressed both of them. For instance:

In verse 6/131 “Oh Ye, assembly of Jinn and Ins don’t you know that a Rasool came to you from amongst you”. (In the Qur’an no reference is there to show that at any time a Jinn was also a Rasool). It is further clarified in verse 7:35 that the Rusul (plural) were from Bani-Adam and sent towards them. In Surahs Jinn and Ahq’af, a reference occurs where it is mentioned that a group of Jinns came to the Rasool to listen to the Qur’an (72/1, 46/29). This also shows that the group who came to Rasool-Allah (PBUH) were actually human beings,  but from uncivilized tribes.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

I see that Parvez acknowledges that the jinn were a creation that were created before us and that they were created out of fire.

However, he then goes on to assert: 'That specie is extinct now - and is referred to as 'al-jaann'.'I do not see where he draws this conclusion from. Nowhere in the quran does it state that the species is extinct. To say that now, jinn refers to bedouins, would cause confusion if you look at all the verses in the Quran that refer to jinn, as you would not know which verse is referring to which 'definition' of jinn.

Parvez says:
'The Qur'an has referred to and addresses 'Jinn and Ins' in many verses together. Ins, (as explained under the heading 'Ins) means tribes settled at a place, and Jinn means those Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts of forests away from cities. In Arabia such people were great in number'

When the Quran addresses 'jini wal insi' which just means 'jinn and men' it is referring to two different creations. Ins(i) is linked to insan which means mankind.

Parvez says:
'In verse 6/131 "Oh Ye, assembly of Jinn and Ins don't you know that a Rasool came to you from amongst you'. (In the Qur'an no reference is there to show that at any time a Jinn was also a Rasool

Firstly the verse is 6/130 and it states:
'O assembly of jinn and men! did there not come to you messengers (rasulun) from among you, relating to you My communications and warning you of the meeting of this day of yours? They shall say: We bear witness against ourselves; and this world's life deceived them, and they shall bear witness against their own souls that they were unbelievers.'

The word is 'rasulun' which is plural . The verse is confirming that both jinns and mankind received messengers from among them i.e their own kind and not of another species. Also this conversation will occur on the Day of Judgement so it cannot refer to just Arabs, one group being 'settled tribes' and the other being 'bedouin tribes'.

Pervez says:
'It is further clarified in verse 7:35 that the Rusul (plural) were from Bani-Adam and sent towards them'

7.35  is addressing mankind only and is talking about the messengers they receive. This verse does not confirm that all messengers are human or that a jinn cannot be a messenger (rasul). In fact we know that messengers can be amonst the angels as well. They too are referred to as rasulan:

35.1:
'Praise be to Allah, the Creator of the heavens and the earth, Who appointeth the angels messengers having wings two, three and four. He multiplieth in creation what He will. Lo! Allah is Able to do all things.'

Pervez says:
'In Surahs Jinn and Ahq'af, a reference occurs where it is mentioned that a group of Jinns came to the Rasool to listen to the Qur'an (72/1, 46/29). This also shows that the group who came to Rasool-Allah (PBUH) were actually human beings,  but from uncivilized tribes.'

72.1:
'Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened, and they said: Surely we have heard a wonderful Quran,'

To me, the above verse just tells us that the jinn 'listened in'. They had simply heard the message of the quran when the Prophet was reciting it.  In fact If we read Surah Jinn then we have some insight into their existence:

72.8
'And that we sought to reach heaven, but we found it filled with strong guards and flaming stars.' A human is not able to do this.

Finally, if we look at Surah Rehman, it is talking to two groups when it says:

'Then which of the favours of your Lord will ye both deny?' The word is: tukadhibāni. Thus is 2nd person dual (form II) imperfect verb.

The quran is full of references about the jinn. They are hidden from our view, they have volition as we do, there are believers and disbelievers amongst them, like us they were created to worship/serve God and they will be gathered on that Day to answer for their deeds as will we.
We must look at these verses together and in my view they all clearly refer to a separate and distinct creation. The same one that Parvez refers to initially but then for some reason says became extinct.

Thanks

[Saba]

Convincing rebuttal Truth Seeker against the point of view taken by Parvez on this issue. I find Parvez's explanation in this matter unconvincing.

Saba.

[Mubashir]

If Jinns were literally made out of fire, and if they read the same Qur'an as us for guidance, then how are they to perform Wudu (Ablutions)? Do fiery creatures eat and fast? I think Parwez is on to something that needs further exploration.

[Mubashir]

Here is another take on Jinns (Qur'an translation by Amatul Rehman Omar). Further food for thought??

72:1 Say, `It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn (- the non-Arab Jews of Nasibin, called Jinn because of their being strong, sharp and effective in affairs) listened (to the Qur'an), so they said (to their people on their return), "Surely, we have heard a wonderful Qur'an,

72:2 "It guides towards righteousness, so we declare our faith in it. We shall no longer worship any god besides our Lord.

72:3 "And the truth is that the Majesty of our Lord is exalted. He has taken to Himself no consort nor (has He begotten) a son,

72:4 "And (we admit) that the foolish among us used to say many exaggerated and blasphemous things against Allah.

72:5 "And (we acknowledge) that (we believed in them because) we never thought that men and jinn could ever possibly utter a lie about Allah.

72:6 "The fact is that some humble and lowly men from among the common folk used to seek refuge with some (big and influential) men from among the jinns and (thus) they increased these (jinns) in arrogance (and conceit).

72:7 "These men (from the jinn) believed even as you believe that Allah would raise no one (as Messenger).

72:8 "And we (- the non-Arab Jews, the jinn who had listened to the Qur'an, as diviners and astrologers) had primarily sought to probe the secrets of space above but we found it teeming with strong guards and shooting stars (a phenomenon which generally occurs before the advent of a divine Reformer).

72:9 "And that we used to sit in some of the observatories to listen to something. But he that tries to listen (in order to forecast some event) now (with the advent of Islam) finds a shooting star in ambush for him.

72:10 "(We confess that) we do not know whether evil is (hereby) augured for those who are on the earth or whether their Lord (thereby) intends to bestow right guidance for them.

72:11 "And some of us are righteous and some of us are otherwise. We follow different ways.

72:12 "And we have come to know for certain that we can never frustrate the purpose of Allah in the earth, nor can we escape Him by flight (in any direction).

[Joseph Islam]

If Jinns were literally made out of fire, and if they read the same Qur'an as us for guidance, then how are they to perform Wudu (Ablutions)? Do fiery creatures eat and fast? I think Parwez is on to something that needs further exploration.

Salamun Alaikum brother Mubashir 

The premise for the support of G. Parwez's argument that you have presented, in my humble opinion is seriously contestable.


First premise:
"If Jinns were literally made out of fire..."

Response:

This assumption is false. The Quran is best describing in the language of the Arabs what creative essence has been used to create the Jinn. This is where English renditions can be left wanting.

The Quran describes their essence as 'nare-sumun' (15:27) and 'mariji-min nar' (55:15)

This is not literal fire. There is some semblance of fire but it is also 'sumun' which gives us a sense of ferocity, intensity and 'marij' which means confused, impaired, mixed and something which is unsteady.

It is a description used by the Quran to best describe to a 7th century Arab audience a substance which they may not be familiar with. Clearly this is not the same substance by which mankind was created (15:26).


Second premise:
"and if they read the same Qur'an as us for guidance..."

Response:

At no place in the Quran does it categorically state that the Quran was revealed to the Jinn as well as for man for complete guidance. There is absolutely no warrant for this understanding in light of the Quran and remains a theological position often based on Islamic secondary sources.

The Quran gives incidents in which the 'jinn' were inclined to 'listen in' (is'tama'a) and acknowledged the veracity of the Quran. This is rather different from concluding that the Quran was also revealed for the 'Jinn'. Incidents such as '72:1' and '46:29' are examples.

If you note the claim by the Jinn in 46:30 that they '...heard a Book revealed after Moses...' one will clearly note that this was a rather exceptional 'inclination'. I don't think the book of Moses was revealed to 'Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts' that G. Parwez expresses.

Furthermore, from the Prophet's statement "'Say: It has been revealed to me that a party of the jinn listened ..." (72:1),, it is clear that the Prophet did not expect the Jinn's to have listened in to the Quran nor are we to conclude that he was aware himself of their presence nor that the Quran was also revealed for them.

Indeed, the Quran acknowledges the Jinn's capacity to 'listen in' (istama'a) but it was merely a group (nafarun - 72:1) which seems to me an exception rather than a rule. This recognition of the Jinn's ability to listen in is also possibly why we find the 'duality' in Surah Rehman correctly noted by Truth seeker. 'Also' a mere 'group' (nafarun) that the Quran has captured as to those that 'listened in' finds tension with Parwez's view that "In Arabia such people were great in number"..

Furthermore, there is a possibility that both incidents of 72:1 and 46:29 may be a reference to the same incident. Again, one possible incident does not establish a rule.

In conclusion therefore, I find both premises in support of G. Parvez's view seriously contestable. Therefore, I cannot support the conclusions you have drawn from them or Parwez's views on this matter. It simply serves little to reconcile all the Quranic narratives cogently.

Thank you for sharing your views to facilitate the debate. It is truly appreciated, albeit I beg to differ.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam

Joseph makes some very good points. In particular:

If you note the claim by the Jinn in 46:30 that they '...heard a Book revealed after Moses...' one will clearly note that this was a rather exceptional 'inclination'. I don't think the book of Moses was revealed to 'Bedouins, nomadic tribes or gypsies who kept on wandering from place to place and remained in deserts' that G. Parwez expresses.

Also I do not see why it is such an issue to define jinn  as they are clearly presented in the Quran. God is perfectly within His rights to create what He wills. We cannot and must not restrict Him:

3.47:
....' He said: Even so, Allah creates what He pleases; when He has decreed a matter, He only says to it, Be, and it is.'

42.29:
'And of his signs is the creation of the heavens and earth and what He has dispersed throughout them of creatures. And He, for gathering them when He wills, is competent.'

Again may I mention the fact that the jinn were created before mankind. Also we know that they are a completely different creation to us.

The propostion by Dr Shabbir and Pervez, that the jinn are somehow 'bedoins' does not make sense and contradicts the Quran:

15.27
 'And the Jinn race, We had created before, from the fire of a scorching wind.'

All verses in the Quran must be reconciled with the above two facts (at least) regarding the jinn. It seems that others are trying to 'fit' their notion of jinn into the verses which leaves them still unable to explain 15.27 amongst others.

Also, we can ascertain from the Quran that Satan is a jinn. So does that mean that he is a bedouin Arab?? ( According to Dr Shabbir and Parvez) or maybe a  'non-Arab Jew of Nasibin' ( According to Amatul Rehman Omar)

As this thread continues, I feel that the propostion that the jinn are simply another group of humans is being exposed as an erroneous conclusion.

[Mubashir]

Please refer to 6:100 where we read:
 
Yet the infidels incorporate with Him the Jinn as partners of Omnipotence and Authority albeit He brought the Jinn into being and caused them to exist. And in ignorance they insolently ascribe to Him sons and daughters; glory be to Him and extolled are His glorious attributes, He is infinitely far beyond all they falsely attribute to Him.

Does that not mean that Allah is referring to some folks who were not only familiar with the Jinn, but regarded them as associates with Allah? The question is who were these Jinns/hidden beings those folks were referring to?

Thanks.

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam,

We are not told about the names of the Jinns that the people were associating with God, rather the fact that they had the audacity to attach created beings (albeit unseen ones) to their Creator and made them equal to God.

[Joseph Islam]

Peace to you all.

An article published today which may be relevant to the topic at hand.

THE JINN
http://quransmessage.com/articles/jinn%20FM3.htm