Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #15 on: January 31, 2014, 09:56:40 AM »
Salaam,

Abbsrayray, you make so many good points in your post ..common sense should prevail but humans have a tendency to stretch the boundaries. Such detailed verses regarding animal consumption should be enough for us. It is clear to me that grazing animals are permitted, i.e herbivores. Chickens come under that remit.

Arman is making a strange point when he says if something is not listed as a prohibition then he can eat it...The list in the Quran would become endless!
Quote
Let me ask you, does God say that you should not eat raw meat, or soil, or metal, glass or petroleum.. and so on and so forth? Or do you say Allah has made these things unlawful? Then bring Qur'an and prove it if you are sincere. Allah has always encouraged use to eat the delicious (Taiyyibat) - and it is up to us to find the delicious and pure food in the best possible form within our respective socio-cultural context. Allah has given us our brain, our eyes, our smelling ability and our taste-buds - and it is up to us to make the best use of them. The eating of dogs, cats, lions, horses, tigers, bears, rats etc. is also no exception. If we make a wrong choice - the result would be immediate - in the form of indigestion or disease or jail!

So I will now go ahead and eat my curtains because God has not prohibited me from doing so? Ludicrous !

Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #16 on: January 31, 2014, 11:33:17 AM »
 Salaam AlaikumTrue Seeker,

 :) Well curtains are not creatures of Allah's creation, so to say... go ahead... lol
 It is a dangerous thing when people compare other things than the matter of subject to convince themselves that they are right and others are wrong, or it must be okay and not prohibited, especially when the "others" are saying the TRUTH and it is not their "beliefs,"  of the subject in matter, rather it is the words of Allah.


I always say to Muslims and non Muslims that scholars, Imams nor Hadith and Sunna speak for Islam. It is God who speaks for Islam in a book called the Quran!!! It is up to each person to discover it and search for the truth in it. It is all in there. To believe that God left things out, and was not clear shows the person is not really connected to God.

What is next? God did not mention it is Haram/prohibited to have sex with animals because He does not give a Prohibition in the Quran that it is not spelled out?? I without doubt believe that everything is in the Quran, we might not have found everything yet, but it is in there...

May Allah protect all the Animals from any abuse or harm, that He created, big and small!  Sadly, lots of Muslims eat Locust.. I puked in my mouth when I saw this just now and thought of a Muslim web page I came across months ago that gave it's audience the green light to go ahead,  including blood from the spleen and liver of an animal that they kill. Bahhhhhh

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nlYlNF30bVg

 ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #17 on: January 31, 2014, 01:16:20 PM »
Salam everyone,

I would like to begin by saying that, brother Joseph's articles have been very informative and he is doing a great job at spreading his understanding of the Quran. Bother Joseph's approach to the Quran seems logical to many of us that is why we read his articles and ask his opinion but that does not mean he is correct 100% of the time. He is a fallible human as well. He urges us in his website to not accept anything he says without verifying it ourselves, so I believe he also knows that he can make mistakes. If, we begin to have an attitude that if brother Joseph says something  then that must be true then we are being guilty of making him an idol. If his opinion or interpretation does not seem acceptable to someone then it is ok. At the end of the day, it is upto Allah  to guide us to the truth. I believe Allah wanted to guide me to the truth so He used some of brother Joseph's articles as a means to do it, but in no way is brother Joseph responsible for the knowledge that I have or the knowledge that brother Joseph has. We are all being granted knowledge, wisdom and understanding by Allah.

Brother Joseph has decided to remain anonymous and I respect his choice. A person should believe brother Joseph's arguments when they seem logical and acceptable from the Quran, not because of his credentials.

I can understand what Arman here is saying, he was not right when he assumed some of the things about bother Joseph,  and brother Joseph stood up for himself.  Brother Joseph did not make any assumptions about Arman or Arman's approach to the Quran. He simply denied to get involved in further dialogue with him. This is very admirable indeed. We should not make another person feel bad even if he/she does not agree with us.

Arman has given proof from verses of the Quran for his understanding. He agrees that Allah made livestock lawful, but making something lawful does not make other things unlawful automatically.  If Allah says that consuming A is lawful, then we can consume A. This does not mean B, C or Z is unlawful for consumption. I agree with Arman here. Let's take a moment and think, Allah revealed the Quran to 7th century Arabs, people at that time were consuming 'livestock' Allah is saying that consuming 'livestock' is still lawful under the regime of islam. Of course people were asking questions regarding 'livestock' that is why Allah revealed an entire surah, sura 6 in the quran is titled 'livestock'. Arabs used these animals for eating as well as carrying burden.

Saying that Allah has made unlawful the consumption of animals that consume other living animals is not true. if, we take the example of chicken, chicken is not a herbivore, it is an omnivore so is the duck. But consuming duck and chicken is lawful. Chicken and duck, both eat insects. so, saying that Allah prohibits land animals which eat other animals is not true. Also, saying that we will be served poultry in heaven so we can eat poultry now is not a good argument. We will be served wine in heaven as well but we can't consume wine now. Comparing life in heaven with life on earth is illogical. Heaven will clearly have new laws, very different than the ones we are subjected to on earth.

Also, fishes are not herbivores, they eat other fishes. we are allowed to consume fish. So eating animals that eat other animals is not prohibited. I know that fishes are not land animals, I am just saying that we are allowed to eat animals which consume other animals, if we are not expressly forbidden not to.

Allah has used the following verse to summarize what He has forbidden:
 006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Notice that Allah mentions 'swine'. He could have mentioned other animals by name or category, if he wanted to forbid them. He does not run out of words nor does He forget

Allah said a category of animals 'herbivores, grazing animals' is allowed for consumption. This does not mean ' carnivores' or 'omnivores' cannot be consumed. This is an assumption.When we deduce something from Allah's verses, it remain just that, a deduction, and we can go wrong. If, something is not clearly said to be forbidden in the Quran, making that thing forbidden by saying that it is implied is not right.When Allah, forbids something, He forbids it using clear verses. Ambiguity is not used in verses when Allah forbids something.
 
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Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #18 on: January 31, 2014, 01:49:25 PM »
Salam Abbsrayray..

You do not consume animals because you find it revolting, but when Muslims consume animals they are not doing anything wrong because Allah allowed consumption of animals.

Btw, sex with animals is forbidden. Allah says when condemning homosexuality, that what is wrong with you that you approach people from your own gender with lust. if we can't approach people from our own gender for sex then approaching another species for it is simply preposterous.

Allah has made eating and the process of reproducing enjoyable so that humans engage in it.  we eat because our bodies need to be replenished from time to time. If eating was not enjoyable humans would have starved themselves to death. Similarly, humans engage in the process of reproduction because it is enjoyable, if it was not so, then humans would not have engaged in it.

The problem lies when one sees the process of reproduction just as a form of enjoyment and forget its purpose. Allah made the purpose very clear when he compared approaching wives with tithing a farmland. a farmer sows seed for harvest, similarly, humans are to approach their spouses belonging to opposite genders for reproduction. the purpose always remains reproduction even if one does it just for enjoyment. But forgetting the purpose of something leads to perversion.
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Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #19 on: January 31, 2014, 01:56:01 PM »
Salam Saba,

can you give a verse which makes carnivores and omnivores haram explicitly?? when you say eating carnivores and omnivores is haram from the verse that says herbivores are halal, you are deducing. at the end of the day a deduction remains a deduction. Saying Herbivore are allowed, simply means herbivores are allowed, it does not mean other animals are haram.

btw, pig is a grazing animal, there are numerous species of grazing animals in the world, they are not haram. so , Allah said that grazing animals are halal with the exception of swine. 7th century Arabs were already consuming grazing animals, Allah is simply saying they can continue to do so but cannot eat swine.  it is not like Arabs started consuming grazing animals after the Quran was revealed!!!!!
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Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #20 on: January 31, 2014, 02:00:25 PM »
Salam Truth Seeker,

you said and i quote
'Arman is making a strange point when he says if something is not listed as a prohibition then he can eat it...The list in the Quran would become endless!'

Why should the list be endless?? Can't it simply be that nothing else is forbidden?? The general approach to the Quran is that if something is not made forbidden, then it is allowed.

006.145
“Say: I do not find in what has been revealed to me anything forbidden to an eater to eat of except that it be what has died of itself, or blood poured forth, or flesh of swine - for indeed, that surely is impure - or that which is a transgression, is dedicated to other than God. But whoever is driven to necessity, not desiring nor transgressing the limit, then surely your Lord is Forgiving, Merciful.”

Allah has listed what he has forbidden, the others are not. it is that simple!!
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Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #21 on: January 31, 2014, 03:49:10 PM »
 Salaam Nura,

I put what I believe and think according to the Quran. What you put does not make sense to me on how you are explaining it and justifying it as Arman did.

No one is Idolizing brother Joseph. I certainly am not, nor do I think others are. If we look up to him for teaching us, it does not mean we are idolizing him. BJ, himself admits when he is wrong and if the other person has it right, many times, read the forum.


He CLEARLY is putting down the proof, not as a matter of what he thinks but what ALLAH says in the Quran. I am sorry, but one can not argue when presented with the truth from Gods words. When BJ comments, writes an article and does not find anything from Allah in there that is the seal of the topic, he gives his opinion and says Allah know best, or only Allah knows this is what I think in this matter, and he only puts the proof that he gets from Allah's words.

I am not attacking Arman, He should have showed his proof as BJ, how can one dispute with the truth when it is Allah's words?

Animals that eat other animals? again... forbidding unless Allah tells us otherwise. What do dogs catch for the hunter?
Birds/ducks.. look up the verse in the Quran= allowed if God is allowing it, do we need God to say, I am allowing birds and ducks? Nope..He does this in so many different topics throughout in the Quran... Only God knows why He is allowing certain things He is prohibiting as a whole. cattle... mentioned.. allowed.. horses, mules... mentioned... for riding and adornment=not allowed to eat.. Unless one studies the entire Quran and carefully pays attention to the theme God is giving us, nothing will make sense..As I said, I stand with what I wrote from examining every single thing BJ said, upon myself looking into this matter years ago on my own,  and from knowing this by paying attention to how Allah is talking to us.  Brother Joseph nor I or anyone on this forum are not forbidding people from doing anything, we are saying what God is saying, that is all, how we are understanding Gods words and message. People can do what they want if they feel they hear God saying it differently than we are saying it. That is between God and them. I studied many other verses that pertain to food consummation that were not mentioned by anyone, but I did not list them because I wanted to make sure first. After listening to them all evening, I am more than sure they fall in the category we are speaking about, which again all flows in the subject of consumption.


As sex with animals.. You were missing my point I was making... People ask.. well being a lesbian is not mentioned in the Quran, so I guess it is OK. Again, the theme God is saying, people are not getting otherwise they will  wonder what is being said at automatically think because He did not mention it it is not prohibit it. He does not have to spell it out and many Muslims are sooooo use to the Hadith having anything their brains desires to know (I am not saying Arman ever believed in hadith or used it , I am saying many Muslims in general)  and they let go and they think it is not in the Quran. I have no idea if you are a convert or was a Muslim all your life, you will see all over the Internet and interacting with others, that many Muslims who have been Muslims all their life, have this assumption that is it is not spelled out, it is a free for all.  I am not saying ALL, but majority, which they find the hadioth which goes on many subjects against what the quran is saying.

The animals and sex thing was not directed at Arman, absolutely not, it was a statement I made as general on how many people think God needs to say no or yes, do or don't for it to be allowed or not, believe it or not, people are doing it... even Muslims... There was a blog when a guy asked a scholar what exactly I am saying... well God did not say it is unlawful!


As for eating animals in general, I am not saying don't, I do not for personal reasons nor consume any animal products. I know God allows it. I just happen to be an extreme animal lover since I was a child who sees no benefit from any of it for myself, but mostly I am disgusted with putting anything in my body that was once a living breathing thing or it came out of a living and breaking creature. I am just programmed very differently from many people.


God tells us there are many benefits, indeed, but it is just not from me. Just a extreme health nut as well... I buy my dog meat all the time and cook it for him... yummy he loves it.. I just will not kill it myself..

Hope this clarifies it.. It is not an attack on anyone...I do not do that to people.. I am a teddy bear...  I am just a very direct person on my choice of words...

Salaam

Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #22 on: January 31, 2014, 04:30:46 PM »
salam abbsraray,

I did not mean that people are idolizing Brother Joseph, I am a huge fan of his, you misunderstood me there. I just said that, we should still scrutinize his arguments, since he is also a fallible human.

Regarding lesbianism, it falls under homosexuality. Homosexuality is condemned clearly in Quran. There is no implicit deduction involved when one says, lesbianism is forbidden. Btw, homosexuality is forbidden because it fails to serve the purpose of reproduction. Lesbianism and beastiality also does not serve the purpose of reproduction. That is the reason why these acts are forbidden. Allah says clearly in the Quran that the purpose of sex is reproduction. Allah could not have made it any clearer.

Again, you guys are missing the point, we are utilising the same verses brother Joseph used to say that herbivores are halal and then deduce that carnivores and omnivores are haram. One cannot say that from the verse which says herbivores are halal, carnivores are haram. The verse does not say that. This is a deduction.

All I am asking is to provide with a verse that clearly states that Carnivores and Omnivores are haram. A verse that says herbivores are halal cannot be used to disprove the permissibility of carnivores and omnivores. It can only be used to prove that herbivores are halal.
Also the verse which says herbivores are halal does not say 'only' herbivores are halal. Allah uses the word 'only' a lot of times elewhere.

It does matter if a dog is catching a haram animal for consumption. Just because a dog caught it does not make an animal halal for consumption. The dog has to catch a halal animal.

I said chicken and ducks are omnivores, they eat other animals, Then chicken and ducks should not be consumed if only herbivorous land animals are fit for consumption.saying that, a verse in the Quran says that we are going to be served poultry in heaven does not prove we can eat poultry on earth. We can eat poultry because it was not explicitly forbidden in the Quran. Its that simple.

There is not one verse in the entire Quran where Allah says that carnivores are haram. If you can bring me a verse then we will discuss this again. But otherwise it seems that we have reached an impasse and I will respectfully agree to disagree. :)..

It should not matter whether I am a convert or was a muslim all along, my arguments should be judged based on its merits and its relativity with the Quran, nothing else should matter. :)
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Offline Deliverance

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #23 on: January 31, 2014, 05:53:06 PM »
Thank you for you thought Nura you draw my Attention to the fish as being lawful,i remember the Story of Yunus where he was "eaten" by a fish"Sura 37"

"When he fled unto the laden ship, (140) And then drew lots and was of those rejected; (141) And the fish swallowed him while he was blameworthy; (142) And had he not been one of those who glorify (Allah) (143) He would have tarried in its belly till the day when they are raised; (144) Then We cast him on a desert shore while he was sick; (145)"

And the Story of Musa when he and his companion wanted to make eat the fish "Sura 18"

Both mightt be meant symbolically nevertheless i just would say in the  last one we get to know that small fishes are allowed to eat but fishes who accompany Humans are not allowed because(to exaggerate it)their could be a man Inside the fish.
Yunus(pbuh)is called "companion of the fish" and the amazing Thing is that dolphins and whales do really accompany Humans.

wa salam



Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #24 on: January 31, 2014, 06:02:33 PM »
Salam Deliverance,

The Quran says that the catch of the 'bahr' is lawful for muslims. 'bahr' is an arabic word meaning water- bodies e.g lakes, ponds, rivers, oceans. The Quran does not say anything about companion fishes or anything. According to the Quran, believers can consume any animal that lives in water.

:)
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Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #25 on: January 31, 2014, 06:19:29 PM »
Salam Nura,

I am very sorry, I disagree with you completly. re read what you said and re read what I sais in all my comments.

As for your last comment about bahr.. again u are wrong.. not because I said so, but because Allah does. u are missing every point we are putting down from the quran.

I do not care if you are a convert or not, it does not matter.. my point is, you are not understanding what the quran is saying and saying false things claiming what God is saying when hHe is telling you the oppisite what you want to hear or believe.

Salaam.. I am done with this topic.

Offline Deliverance

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #26 on: January 31, 2014, 06:20:45 PM »
Dear Nura i like your writings but here i disagree with you cause a whale is pragnat for a year till 17months and they get only one Baby not millions like the small fishes.

Can you agree it up with your conscience when you order a whalesteak to eat meat from a whale who probably was pragnat

Sorry Nura but Whales belong to the douptfull/forbiden Meat,in my opinion.

peace

Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #27 on: January 31, 2014, 06:30:28 PM »
Salam Abbsrayray,


I do not think you understood what I was saying, I think everyone here agrees that all kinds of seafood is lawful, please see Brother Jospeh's article. And fishes do eat other fishes it is a fact. I am not making stuff up.

The verse that brother Joseph quotes, does not say 'only' herbivores are allowed. The verse does not mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'.

There is no verse in the Quran that says clearly that 'carnivores' and 'omnivores' are haram. please bring a verse that mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'. Till then you do not have a solid proof for what you are saying just because I am not agreeing to what you are saying does not mean I am making things up. I can claim the same for you since you cannot provide me with a verse that says or mentions 'carnivores' or 'omnivores' explicitly.

Please do not assume that people are making stuff up to serve their own agenda or beliefs just because their views are not similar to yours. I have given you proofs repeatedly that the verse you are arguing does not mention 'carnivores' or 'omnivores'. You should be able to provide me with a direct verse for what you are saying!
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Offline Nura

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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #28 on: January 31, 2014, 06:33:50 PM »
Salam Deliverence,

Millions of people eat caviar, fish eggs in the world. Catching a pregnant fish is not haram. But, if you for some reason do not like or want to kill a pregnant fish/whale than it is your personal choice. I respect it. But this has nothing to do with Islam. Quran has not declared it prohibited to catch a pregnant fish/whale.

Personally, we can agree not to kill any animal. since killing for food can be construed as unmerciful at least from the animal's perspective. Vegans, do not kill any animals because of this. They do not even eat eggs, since eggs can hatch to produce newborns! And it is commendable in my opinion. but, it remains my opinion! I cannot say that when people eat meat or eggs, they are sinning, since the Quran allows killing for consumption.

:)
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Re: Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz
« Reply #29 on: February 01, 2014, 02:18:03 AM »
Salaam Nura,

To me, your standpoint seems to be that if certain animals are not explicitly forbidden in the Quran, then we are not to condemn the consumption of those, for example rats, tigers etc.

Using that methodology you then cannot say that bestiality is haram when there is no mention of it in the Quran..

You are taking the homosexuality verse and expanding it by deduction, yet you are condemning those on his thread when they, by deduction are ruling out certain types of animals for human consumption.