Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

[Nura]

Salam Truthseeker,

Thank you for saying that others here are deducing when they are saying 'carnivores' and 'omnivores' are haram! No one acknowledged this bit, that it is a deduction. That is the point I was trying to make.

Now, regarding bestiality,

Allah says in the Quran

verse 16:72
And God has given you mates of your own kinds and has given you, through your mates, children and children's children, and has provided for you sustenance out of the good things of life. Will men, then, [continue to] believe in things false and vain, and thus blaspheme against God's blessings?

Clearly in the above verse Allah has said that He has made mates for us from among our own kind, humans. After reading this verse can you think that a human can have mates from another species? When I said bestiality is forbidden, I did not deduce it. Allah has said it explicitly in the Quran that we have mates from among ourselves. I do not deduce anything and I do not believe anything is forbidden in the Quran without explicit verses.

It is not a necessity that we all have to agree about everything! I am sorry if I made anyone feel like I was condemning them, it was never my intention, and I believe its not my place to condemn anyone.I really enjoy having discussions with you people and would love to have more in the future, but regarding this topic, I beleive we have reached an impasse. So, I would respectfully agree to disagree and ask all of you to consider this my last post on the topic we are discussing.

[Truth Seeker]

salaam,

I am saying that from what I have seen from your discussions on this topic you are claiming that other peoples deductions are not an acceptable form of evidence to you regarding the impermissibility of consumption of rats tigers etc

This is because you say that they are not mentioned as haram in the Quran therefore we can eat such animals.

I state again then that your methodology must be applied to other topics i.e no deduction allowed. So you cannot then condemn beastiality as you are not bring consistent.

[Saba]

Salam Saba,

can you give a verse which makes carnivores and omnivores haram explicitly?? when you say eating carnivores and omnivores is haram from the verse that says herbivores are halal, you are deducing. at the end of the day a deduction remains a deduction. Saying Herbivore are allowed, simply means herbivores are allowed, it does not mean other animals are haram.

btw, pig is a grazing animal, there are numerous species of grazing animals in the world, they are not haram. so , Allah said that grazing animals are halal with the exception of swine. 7th century Arabs were already consuming grazing animals, Allah is simply saying they can continue to do so but cannot eat swine.  it is not like Arabs started consuming grazing animals after the Quran was revealed!!!!!

Salaam. Why would I do that? Can you give me an explicit verse that makes bestiality haram without deduction? No you cannot - you have to deduce. 16:72 gives us permissibly for mates of our own kind. By your argument why are you then deducing that bestiality is haram? Where is the explicit verse to make bestiality haram? Please stay consistent with your arguments.

Anyway, I asked a simple q. Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?.

Also if the food of believers were allowed for the people of the book and their food for us, and you say we can eat cats and dogs etc, how can then these animals that you claim we can eat be halal for the people of the book when their scriptures forbid it?

Please provide answers for that if you can. Thanks Saba

[Nura]

Salam saba,

I did not deduce that bestiality is forbidden. Allah said that he has made mates from our kind. these 'our kind' words are used, where is deduction here? when Allah said he made mates from our kind he means human mates. You know that too.

verses 16:72

And God has given you mates of your own kinds and has given you, through your mates, children and children's children, and has provided for you sustenance out of the good things of life. Will men, then, [continue to] believe in things false and vain, and thus blaspheme against God's blessings?

verses 30:21

And among His wonders is this: He creates for you mates out of your own kind. so that you might incline towards them, and He engenders love and tenderness between you: in this, behold, there are messages indeed for people who think!

From 'your own kind' is clearly said. Humans are for humans. Allah has said it clearly. How much clearer proof do you need? The verses do not say humans are permissible for humans. It clearly says human mates are made for humans. There is no ambiguity. other animals are not of our kind, they are not our mates. This is not a deduction, when Allah clearly said humans are for humans.

The following verses clearly says that men should approach women, if not they are transgressing.
    007.081

    "Indeed, you approach men lustfully (shahwatan) instead of women. Nay, you are a people transgressing beyond bounds (musrifun)"

    027.055

     "Why do you approach men with lust (shahwatan) instead of women? Nay you are a people ignorant!"

I do not think from the above clear verses, one has to deduce anything! homosexuality and bestiality is clearly a transgression!

btw, in the above verses, the phenomenon of humans having a mate from the same species and approaching people from the same gender are clearly mentioned. there is no assumption or implicit deduction involved.

Allah had made all food lawful for the children of Israel, as proof:

verses 3:93

ALL FOOD was lawful unto the children of Israel, save what Israel had made unlawful unto itself [by its sinning] before the Torah was bestowed from on high. Say: "Come forward, then, with the Torah and recite it, if what you say is true!"

But people of the book transgressed so as punishment Allah made some food unlawful to them. Proof:

verses 6:146

And to those who were Jews We made unlawful every animal having claws, and of oxen and sheep We made unlawful to them the fat of both, except such as was on their backs or the entrails or what was mixed with bones: this was a punishment We gave them on account of their rebellion, and We are surely Truthful.
 
Clearly as punishment Allah made some food unlawful to them, Why should that punishment be onto us??

And also clearly Allah has different shariahs for us and people of the book. proof:

verses
 005.048

“To thee We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayhi - coexistent Torah and Bible *), and guarding it by determining what is true and false (Arabic: wa-muhayminan): so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

btw we can consume food from the people of the book as long as they prepare it following their religious prescriptions. Also if the name of God is not evoked before slaughter we cannot consume it even if people from people of the book prepare it. See related article of Brother Joseph.

People of the book believe circumcision is a mandatory ritual for them. Brother Joseph has proved that circumcision is not mandatory for us.
 So, clearly we have different shariah then people of the book.

The Quran was revealed so that some of the burden from people of the book could be lifted, if they believed it was a revelation from Allah. Proof:

07.157
"Those who follow the messenger (Arabic: Tabiuna RasulAllah), the gentile prophet (Arabic: Nabiya Ummiya), whom they find mentioned in their own (scriptures) in the Torah and the Gospel;- for he commands them to what is right and forbids from what is wrong (Arabic: munkar); he allows them as lawful what is good (and pure) and prohibits them from what is bad (and impure) (Arabic: Khabaitha); He relieves from them their burdens and from the fetters which were upon them. So it is those who believe in him, honour him, help him, and follow the light which is sent down with him,- it is they who will prosper."

So, the Bible may not allow the people of the book to consume some animals but if they believe that the Quran is from Allah, then the Quran can relieve them from their burdens. The Quran is a guard over the Bible. Not the other way around. The Quran can and in some cases does override the Bible.

This is going to be my last post on this thread. I will not be engaging in anymore debate with anyone as I have given my proofs. If, I am wrong may Allah guide me.

[Saba]

Salaam . My main question still hasn't been answered. So let me repeat it once again so that someone who can will answer......

Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Saba,

I am sorry I started all this naughty animal stuff.. I was making a point...

Maybe this makes more sense....

As for stunning the animal, giving it a blow, shooting it, this itself render’s the animal impure and unlawful. How are you going to slaughter a tiger, lion, shark, and whale? HOW? You become it’s food than (I seem to have this wicked pleasure when I hear of an animal killed a human and has eaten some flesh) You cannot kill it in anyway except described by God….when you are ONLY ALLOWED to SLAUGHTER IT, how can one slaughter a whale? Tiger or bear, Okay let’s say you shoot it, it dies, so it becomes automatically unlawful, it is considered DEAD MEAT before you slaughter it. Forbidden!! I just view this as Allah want't to see if we are paying attention to the manor on how he ordered you guys to slaughter...
If one assumed "lawful" NOT MENTIONED or not prohibitted thing needs to be met with what is commanded as Unlawful by Allah i.e. method I mention above, which one hold more weight? It does not mean because it is not mentioned that it is lawful, God eventually gives other verses leading to all this..

Many people like to quote verse 5:96 about sea food. It says:
"Allowed for you is the GAME OF THE SEA AND ITS FOOD, as a provision for you
and for the travelers." They conclude that based on this verse all sea food
should be allowed.

First of all, you have to look at the context of the verse. It was revealed
as part of the rules explaining the restrictions on a person who is in ihram
(the pilgrim's garment) during the pilgrimage. The whole passages reads as
follows:

"O you who believe!
"Do not kill the game while you are in the pilgrim garb. And whosoever among
you kills it intentionally, then the compensation of it is that the like of
what he killed from the cattle as adjudged by two just men from among you.
[This compensation is] an offering to be brought to the Ka`ba, or the
expiation of it is the feeding of the poor or the equivalent of it in
fasting so that he may taste the heinousness of his deed.
God has pardoned what is gone by; and whoever returns to it, then God will
exact penalty from him, and God is Mighty, Lord of Retribution."

After this prohibition about killing the game, the next verse says:

"ALLOWED for you is the GAME OF THE SEA AND ITS FOOD, as a provision for you
and for the travelers; and FORBIDDEN for you is the GAME OF THE LAND so
long as you are in the pilgrim garb; and fear God unto whom you shall be
gathered."

What this verse is saying is that
        "the game of the sea and its food" is allowed to the pilgrims
        even when they are in the state of ihram;
        whereas the "game of the land" is haram
        as long as they are in the state of ihram.

This verse is not defining what is the permissible "food" from the game of
sea. It is just saying that whatever was allowed (in case of sea food) is
also allowed in ihram, and that whatever was allowed (in case of the game of
land) is not permissible in ihram.

If the verse is saying that all kinds of the "game of sea and its food" is
Permissible, then what would one say about the next sentence---Would all
kind of land animals be allowed after the pilgrim is out of ihram?! No one
takes the expression in the second sentence "the game of the land" as a
blanket approval for all land animals. Similarly, no one should take the
expression in the first sentence "the game of sea and its food" as a blanket
approval for all sea animals.

Moreover, the words "the game of sea and ITS FOOD" show that not every
"game/catch of sea" is food; otherwise, there was no need to add the words
"and its food" in this sentence. It would mean that you are allowed to catch
many things from the sea but only "its food" is permissible for you to eat.

I will no longer comment on this matter...

[Nura]

Salam saba,

Because Arabs were consuming them as food and using them for carrying burden from before the Quran was revealed. Do you honestly believe Arabs started eating livestock after the Quran was revealed??? Allah has simply said that Grazing animals in general are all lawful and can still be eaten with the exception of swine under the regime of Islam.  Do you expect God to list every species of grazing animal on earth?? this does not proof other animals belonging to other categories are haram!

In case you did not know, the chicken is an omnivore and we all eat chicken. do not tell me that the chicken is permissible because we will be served poultry in heaven. we are also going to be served wine in heaven, that does not mean we can consume wine on earth.

[Armanaziz]

Salamun Alaikum.

Dear Nura - congratulations for surrenderring to the will and words of the Master of the Universe. For everyone else - I only have to offer you the clears words from Our Master, [recheck the translation though and feel free to use any other translation of your choise]. Emphasis added.

Surah Al-An-am (Grazing Livestock); Verses 145-147

6:145   Say, “I do not find in what has been inspired to me anything prohibited to an eater who eats – except – that it happens to be dead, or poured-out blood or flesh of swine; then indeed it is pollution or willful disobedience originating for other than Allah with it.” Then whoever is compelled - neither coveting nor recurring; then indeed your Master is Relenting, Kind.

6:146   And upon those who are Yahudi We prohibited every (creature) with claws; and of the cows and the sheep We prohibited upon them their fat/lipid  except what carried their backs or their entrails or whatever is joined with the bones – that is their repayment for their envious acts. And indeed We surely are sincere.

6:147   Then if they deny you then say, “Your Master is vastly full of mercy but His pressure will not turn away from a criminal people.”

May Allah guide us all to the straight route.

Till our paths meet again ... Fee Amanillah.

Arman

[Saba]

Salaam Nura. That explanation makes your point weaker. I never said they didn't eat grazing livestock before. They did - so why mention animals thy already knew they could eat?

@Armanaziz - let's leave it to Allah to decide who is submitting to Alah's word shall we? Your 'everything else' comment is pathetic in what it implies and I would like to think that Nura would not agree with such a statement too.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Saba,

Oh my God, I am laughing so hard, (see link below)

I can not contain myself....  ???Just because God does not spell it out, does not mean it is allowed...

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=433.0

[Nura]

salam Saba,

Because the Quran was revealed for all, the Arab Christians and Jews knew a lot of things but still the Quran repeated the same core message that was in the Bible. Allah only knows why he chooses certain sequences of words. my point was that, saying herbivores are halal does not make carnivores automatically haram. I can say a lot of things justifying why Allah uses 'grazing animals' here but there is no way of knowing the truth. Allah did not inform us why he chose the phrase 'grazing animals' in the Quran. Anything I say regarding the question you asked will fall under assumption about Allah, and I will not do that to prove a point to you or anyone else! I will refrain to make assumptions about Allah's choice of words as you well know that if I am wrong the repercussions are going to be terrible and only suffered by me

We can all agree that the verse does mention 'grazing animals' explicitly but does not mention 'carnivores or 'omnivores explicitly. If someone is saying that 'carnivores' or 'omnivores' are haram from this verse then they are deducing it.

May Allah guide me if I am wrong, but clearly we do have common grounds, let's just appreciate the common grounds we found and leave the rest to Allah. Have a nice day everyone

[Nura]

Salam Abbsrayray,

Regarding the marrying Grandparents matter, the Quran actually has the answer. It is a known fact that when the Quran uses the words father and mother, it includes grandfather and grandmother as well, proof:

[2:133] Or were you witnesses when death came to Jacob; he said to his children, "What will you worship after I’m gone?" They said, "We worship your god and the god of your fathers; Abraham, Ismail, and Isaac. One god and to Him we are submitters."

we know that Abraham was the grandfather, Isaac was Abraham’s son, and Jacob was Isaac’s son.

Yet the children of Jacob spoke to their father saying “your fathers; Abraham, Ismail and Issac”
But Abraham is not Jacobs father, he is his grandfather, yet Abraham, together with Isaac and Ismail are all referred to as Jacob’s fathers.

Similarly, Ismail is not Jacob’s father, he is his uncle, but again he is, with the others referred to as Jacobs’s fathers.

What this tells us is that the word “fathers” is used in numerous verses in the Quran to mean all the direct male predecessors. This use is also evident in the verses where people say: we followed what our fathers (plural) were doing (e.g. 2:170). Once again the use of the word “fathers” is a reference to fathers and grandfathers.

With this understanding, we can see that the marriage to grandfathers or grandmothers is prohibited in 4:23 since it is classified under the prohibition to marry the “fathers” and "mothers". It follows that it is also prohibited for a man to marry his granddaughter.

I hope the above clarifies this issue and confirms that when God says that the Quran has all the details that it is absolute truth. Many have tried, and many more will always try, to prove that the Quran does not have all the details, but their claims will always be exposed in the light of the Quran. God’s words are perfect, complete and fully detailed.

[Saba]

Salaam Nura. It is by way of deduction that you also accept other animals are also halal. However I have today you haven't provided me a convincing response as to why grazing animals were particularly mentioned when Arabs knew to eat it. By saying you don't know why, others will say it is because that was the group of food that was made lawful like the previous people of the book. But unlike Armanaziz you have not implied we are not submitting to Allah's words etc etc. that I thank you for. Yes we have common ground on other matters....let us focus on that. Thanks Saba

[AbbsRay]

 

[Saba]

Salaam all. Please re-read the verses before 6-145 that ArmanAziz keeps quoting out of context.....you will see that 6-145 has to be read in context where it is made clear that Arabs had made unlawful certain things in grazing animals. That is what 6-145 clarified. Verses should not be read out of context.

006.144
And two of camels and two of cows. Say: Has He forbidden the two males or the two females or that which the wombs of the two females contain? Or were you witnesses when Allah enjoined you this? Who, then, is more unjust than he who forges a lie against Allah that he should lead astray men without knowledge? Surely Allah does not guide the unjust people.

006.145
YUSUFALI: Say: "I find not in the message received by me by inspiration any (meat) forbidden to be eaten by one who wishes to eat it, unless it be dead meat, or blood poured forth, or the flesh of swine,- for it is an abomination - or, what is impious, (meat) on which a name has been invoked, other than Allah's". But (even so), if a person is forced by necessity, without wilful disobedience, nor transgressing due limits,- thy Lord is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

The biggest problem is reading verses out of context!!!!