Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Nura,

I would like you to listen to Verse 6:141 in Arabic. God is saying ya min anami and  hamūlatan.
Than these words, mutashābihan /waghayra/mutashābihin repeated again, these words Allah is talking about Fruit. Now compare that about the animals. BJ already laid out the words on bahimatu l'anaami. FOCUS on the word “ḥamūlatan” Than what BJ wrote will make sense hopefully.  This is the only way for those who are so focused on the grazing word to understand it when it is listened to when recited in Arabic. I say listen to these in Arabic because there are many arabic words that have no english meaning, so some are guessed on given the sentance.

Again, you are justifying stuff because Allah hasn't spelled it out to you. Sea creatures, I still stand to what I said earlier. There is something in the Quran still that will link to several verses about pacific things out of the sea for food consumption. Although BJ, put down it is any, we just need to connect the dots to something in the Quran that is more clearier to why certain sea creatures.

To me anyways, there are MANY creatures in the sea that are POISONOUS; I find it impossible for Allah to tell us to eat stuff that will cause Kidney Failure even if the creature is cooked. This is not me saying this, but medical fact of many cases that happened. There are a chance one will get us paralyzed, severe nerve damage and so on.. HARMFUL!!  Puffer Fish for example will cause you and HAS caused paralysis and eventually, death.  Are you saying that our Merciful God who created these sea  creatures being poisonous and deadly evolved different types of predatory and defensive mechanisms in order to survive themselves  that He is going to tell us to eat such and have harmful consequences? People 1400 years ago when the Quran was revealed do not have the means to know what is poisonous and what is not; it is not mentioned in the Quran.  When Allah says He provides what is good for you and pure He certainly is not talking about Poisonous creatures He created.  So is Allah contradicting Himself when He says He provides what is good for us? I do not think so, one must use their brain. The sea is full of snakes that only live in the sea.  Is Allah saying one can eat that too?
I can list you hundreds of creatures from the sea and land that even if you cook them, they still will cause extreme medical harm and even kill you, many people have died or are living with severe medical issues that has inflicted their entire life and it is irreversible and permanent, because on consuming some creatures from the sea. Do you think God does not know this but He is telling us to eat what we want from the sea? It does not make logic sense. God will not do this, it is like giving someone a loaded gun, with one bullet in it and telling them to pull the trigger and there are chances you will get the bullet that is in there or not when you pull the trigger. God is too merciful and just and will not do that. To me anyways it makes no sense. I do not say this because I am an animal lover, I cannot prohibit stuff or say Allah said it is prohibited when He does not, but there is certainly more in the Quran we have not found when it comes to the Sea creatures.  You mention sea weeds (great for facials btw, lol) but you know how much fungus weeds, among many other plants that live down in the sea that will kill you within minutes after you consume it? So did Allah mean everything in the sea knowing what He created down there will kill you? Is Allah trying to trick us and make us die after He tells us go ahead the sea it is open for everything?  How would the people way before the Quran was revealed know that some of these creatures will kill them if they consumed them? How would the people know this when the Quran was first revealed? They certainly did not. Why would Allah say such and contradict himself on wanting what is good for us?
taʾkulūna    laḥman    ṭariyyan
In verse 35:12 and other verses, it is some fresh tender meat. How can a poisonous creature be fresh tender meat? It is suppose to be good for us right? So how is that so? Does God have to spell it out for us or it is considered lawful? People are arrogant to understand that Allah does not have to spell everything out; it does not mean it is lawful. God tells us throughout the Quran to use our intellect. Therefore as for me, it makes no logic sense.  Knowing the God I love and respect above all things, He would never do that to His servants. As Allah says in many verses, 31:27 And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, were ink, the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. Same thing with verse 18:109. I wonder how confused people would be if He sent more books with the Quran? They still would justify things and not understand.
I seriously can careless what people do, but understand what God is saying instead of saying He is saying this and that. If one is unsure, we can guess but that leads to confusion and causing people to do things that God is not allowing. One needs to study and ponder on what God is saying. It is one HUGE do’s and don’ts, that all meets in the middle on every subject. Each verse in the Quran is so filled with knowledge and compacted in little few words for some and more for others to get the message out.

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Vehement arguments will not cause people to get disgruntled with the site.

Arguments mired with sarcastic remarks will certainly take the sheen out of this site.

The Chief Administrator must institute strict rules of conversation.

That will, in sha Allah, bring to bear the Grace of Allah upon this site.

Saba,

Please note that in 5:4, we have: They ask you what has been made halaal for them. Say, good things, and what your trained hunting animals catch for you...

Again, in 5:5, this day are all good things made lawful for you, the food of the people of the book...

In 5:1, of course, special mention is made of ordinary livestock.

This is because livestock come under the category of good and wholesome food.

More over, the four exceptions are preeminently suited to the livestock. One of the reasons is that swine tended to be bracketed with ordinary livestock, or even preferably better for those who relished it.

So the paramount necessity for it to be exempted from being counted among the livestock.

The ordinary livestock are the major-most and widely appreciated, preferred, and commonly used item of meat. At least, before the cheap poultry has taken over this preference from at least the lower income group of society, thanks to technological innovations.

Due to these, and may be not-mentioned reasons of clarification from the public, or whatever other reason, the Omniscient Almighty mentioned it as having been made halaal.

The whole Qur'an is replete with the utmost leniency regarding every regulation except the moral ones - the Core, Cardinal, Universal Values - The Spiritual Legacy of All Mankind - as in (6:151-152-153).

Among the Cardinal Values, is the prohibition of all kinds of obscenities. Therefore, there is no ambiguity regarding the prohibition of fornication, adultery, homosexuality, bestiality, all kinds of sexual perversion and depravity, miserliness, avarice, etc.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.
                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                       

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Ismail,

"Arguments mired with sarcastic remarks will certainly take the sheen out of this site"

How am I being sarcastic? Seriously, think about it... people are going to say, well I want this creature because God, according to ones understanding of Gods verses He is not prohibiting it, so it is lawful. But I would never eat "such and such" not because it is lawful but it might be harmful to me? It goes against justifying what the overall message of what God is saying. God created all things, one does not think that He knows what will be absolutely toxic and deadly to the humans if consumed? I think not.. We are talking about Almighty, All Wise. That is why one should ponder and think about it from every angle.

So please tell me how I am being sarcastic? Please enlighten me with what I said?

[Ismail]

Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait. 

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Ismail,

I am certainly not talking about Mercury. I am talking about POISON and TOXINS, the creature has that Allah granted them by creating it in them to protect themselves, not just to sting other creatures to protect themselves. These poisons and toxins are in special tissues or organs that cause harm when eaten. A creature is considered venomous if there are specialized mechanisms to physically deliver the toxins through bites, spines and stings. For example, a pufferfish is poisonous when eaten even when cooked but is not venomous in that it does not bite or sting in order to deliver the toxins present in certain organs in its body. It is Gods creation. He made creatures to have communities like us and some for food... That is all I am saying..

[Saba]

In 5:1, of course, special mention is made of ordinary livestock. This is because livestock come under the category of good and wholesome food.

The ordinary livestock are the major-most and widely appreciated, preferred, and commonly used item of meat. At least, before the cheap poultry has taken over this preference from at least the lower income group of society, thanks to technological innovations.

Salaam br. Ismail. Can't you see why some will simply not see this as a convincing response? If the Arabs knew to eat grazing livestock, why make specific mention of it at the expense of more exotic type of animals which was not common to eat??? As I said before ....the Qu'ran was speaking to Jews and Christians too and they never ate this kind of stuff so it would have made sense that the Qur'an clarified... but instead it only confirmed the general category of grazing livestock which they knew to eat anyway!!!!! How else would the food of the people of the book be lawful for believer's and believer's food lawful for people of the book such as Jews and Christians? (5:5) How can cats and dogs and lions be lawful for Jews and Christians?

Can't you see that br. Ismail?? Would verse 5-1 not be the perfect place to expect a clear clarification that all animals were made lawful? Why single out livestock?

Now I mean this really nicely ......I am still not getting a convincing response from you on this question. So I will put it out there again ....

"Why did Allah mention grazing animals for lawfulness in verse 5-1 if all animals were halal anyway?"   Saba   

[Saba]

Salaam Ismail,

I am certainly not talking about Mercury. I am talking about POISON and TOXINS, the creature has that Allah granted them by creating it in them to protect themselves, not just to sting other creatures to protect themselves. These poisons and toxins are in special tissues or organs that cause harm when eaten. A creature is considered venomous if there are specialized mechanisms to physically deliver the toxins through bites, spines and stings. For example, a pufferfish is poisonous when eaten even when cooked but is not venomous in that it does not bite or sting in order to deliver the toxins present in certain organs in its body. It is Gods creation. He made creatures to have communities like us and some for food... That is all I am saying..

Agree 

[AbbsRay]

Sallam Saba,

I think BJ, nailed it on a different forum just now about when God says all such as fruits. Certainly there are poisonous and toxic  fruits, He is not saying go ahead eat those too. Allah is All Wise All Knowing AllMighty... He certainly wants one to use their intellect. He certainly uses an example with the fruits not prohibiting, which is another example for the sea creatures.

Thanks Brother Joseph about the fruit comments.. Hopefully that will end the justification of these verses. 

[Saba]

Salaam.

Abbsrayray's latest post expresses heartfelt genuine concerns.

Even the laḥman ṭariyyan of well known, edible fish today is prone to mercury poisoning in some places on the globe.

Such are genuine concerns, and must be appreciated.

But this does not take away the decree of their being halaal.

They are not thayyib. God always asks us to eat that which is halaalan thayyiban (2:168, 5:88, 8:69, 16:114).

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaambr. Ismail, ....And what I have been saying to you, without meaning to be rude is that 5-1 in the Qur'an makes grazing livestock halal be explicit mention!.  Why mention a specific category if all animals were lawful anyway???

[AbbsRay]

Salaam,

Maybe this will help... 

http://quransmessage.com/forum/forum.htm

[Saba]

Salaam Abbsrayray.. Thanks for informing. I checked it out below. Your link seemed to go to the general site... Thanks Saba 

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1133

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Saba,

Thank You!!

[optimist]

Dear Nura, Ismail,   Salam alaikum

Due to time constraint now, let me ask you a few small questions briefly before I post my comments for many points raised.  I hope to respond later in detail when I have enough time. 

Suppose in a class room, a teacher says, "all boys are permitted to go outside except those in the back seat"

1. Does this instruction in any manner apply to the girls in the classroom?   And if girls are also allowed to go outside, will any teacher make any such statement focusing boys?

2. Don't you think the girls by default are exempted from this instruction even without using the word "ONLY boys...."?

Well, can you satisfactorily explain why Quran has brought up an exception clause in 5:1 along with permissibility of eating grazing livestock and start to mention such exceptions in 5:3 without focusing on all animals?  If all animals are allowed to be eaten, it should have been specified in 5:3 that the prohibition for eating the dead, the blood, and dedicated unto any other than Allah are applicable for all animals. 

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH? (ALLAH FORBID!!).  You don‘t know what a twisted barbaric analysis you are making.  Even the eyes of shame should bow down in shame if you go for such ridiculous explanations.

Also can you satisfactorily answer why so many exceptions are provided for grazing livestock which is normally eaten by people (Quran clearly says “some for burden and some for meat” (6:142) horses and mules and asses for you to ride (16:,8), etc),  whereas no exceptions are not provided for animals which are normally NOT eaten by people in the world (including you!)? Among all other animals everything is allowed..(sigh!)

Regards,
Optimist

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam all,

Clearly this is a hotly debated topic and emotions are running high. I encourage you all to continue sharing your views but please may I remind members to refrain from making comments that may offend others.

Optimist, your shame comment is an example of what others may deem inappropriate, but please do continue to contribute to the forum as you, like all members are valued here.

[AbbsRay]

Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I got another question about this topic..

I am not sure how to ask this without making it sound gross and perverted but here it goes...

Allah says for the meat when it is allowed to slaughter "Certain" animals.  I know that animals produce milk, eggs when they are alive. But isn't there a limitations, like I know blood is not allowed from the animal, how about body parts?

I was at this middle eastern restaurant/store a bit ago grabbing something, (non meat of course) when a lady nearly had a fit because they were out of testicles. I mean she was PISSED!  She than went to talk to the butcher and said her husband was craving testicles  and if it was possible if they can have some the following day. She actually insisted they slaughter some sheep to have more stock for testicles. I have even seen tongues (puking in my mouth) in the cooler as I close my eyes and look away..  I know many eat heads, brains, intestines and many many more..  I mean come on... lets kill an animal so we can eat it's private parts? Is this even permissible? Isn't it prohibited to slaughter thousands of innocent animals so they can be placed on a cooler shelf "GREED" or to get pacific body parts?

Shukrun in advance...