Critique - DOES THE QURAN ALLOW ... DOGS, CATS, RATS ETC? by Arman Aziz

[optimist]

I agree with brother Ismail when he says that 'grazing animals' is specifically mentioned because Arabs were consuming them during the 7th Century. And so Allah says they can continue to consume 'grazing animals' with the exception of swine.

Dear Nura, Ismail,  Salaam!!

I believe, it is preferable to address different points under different posts. So, let us check further whether there is any logic in the above statement. 

According to me, ONLY under a circumstance when people specifically ask a specific question whether it is permissible to eat “grazing animals”, Allah would be stating that it is permissible to eat “grazing animals”.  Please think.  As you know, there are many verses in the Quran which start with “they ask you about” so and so and Allah says “tell them” and then the Quran goes on to state the related injunctions.  The verses 5:1-3 are not just verses making just a confirmation of something people already considered as lawful,  rather it was providing a comprehensive instruction with detailed exceptions.  Anyhow, there is absolutely no other reason other than a specific question from the people to focus on "grazing animals".   Unfortunately;

1. There is no implication in the verse that such a specific question was ever asked by the people.

2. There is no possibility for people asking such a specific question because eating grazing livestock is generally accepted as allowed and permissible and people had been eating the same. 

Therefore, two possibilities;

1. Allah wanted to explain through the Quran (being a complete guidance for the people) the animals permissible for them to eat (by default the rest not permissible). 

2. The people wanted to know what are the animals allowed for them to eat (please note, in order to know the animals permissible to eat, no one with common sense would make a request for a list of prohibited animals since it would be a long list and it would be required to extract the permissible excluding the prohibited).  THINK.   A similar example could be found in marriage prohibition where Quran lists down those people to whom we are prohibited to get married in order to explain those we are allowed to marry (being infinite).  It would require to explain the prohibited to make people know what is permissible.  This is simple logic.

And again, the question still remains to be answered; why to focus on something which is already considered as permissible and lawful by the people (as I said, even a silence on this could be termed as permissibility); and why no focus on other animals which are considered as unlawful and not permissible.   

Regards,
Optimist

[Deliverance]

Does vers 5-1 include grazing animals in the sea this would answer the debate about if sharks and other predator in the sea are lawful because such fishes aren´t easy to hunt without difficulty an harm for both fish/man.
So "...the game of the sea..." is the grazing livestock of the ocean and most of them are in swarms like grazing animals on land are in Groups.And the form to hunt is to throw the net out in to the sea,and not by catching them with meat on fishing rod.

[Deliverance]

i forgotten to add Cormorant fishing a form of fishing http://mrjournalist.com/a-brief-history-of-cormorant-fishing/

[optimist]

Salaam Nura,

I would like you to listen to Verse 6:141 in Arabic. God is saying ya min anami and  hamūlatan.
Than these words, mutashābihan /waghayra/mutashābihin repeated again, these words Allah is talking about Fruit. Now compare that about the animals. BJ already laid out the words on bahimatu l'anaami. FOCUS on the word “ḥamūlatan” Than what BJ wrote will make sense hopefully.  This is the only way for those who are so focused on the grazing word to understand it when it is listened to when recited in Arabic. I say listen to these in Arabic because there are many arabic words that have no english meaning, so some are guessed on given the sentance.

Again, you are justifying stuff because Allah hasn't spelled it out to you. Sea creatures, I still stand to what I said earlier. There is something in the Quran still that will link to several verses about pacific things out of the sea for food consumption. Although BJ, put down it is any, we just need to connect the dots to something in the Quran that is more clearier to why certain sea creatures.

To me anyways, there are MANY creatures in the sea that are POISONOUS; I find it impossible for Allah to tell us to eat stuff that will cause Kidney Failure even if the creature is cooked. This is not me saying this, but medical fact of many cases that happened. There are a chance one will get us paralyzed, severe nerve damage and so on.. HARMFUL!!  Puffer Fish for example will cause you and HAS caused paralysis and eventually, death.  Are you saying that our Merciful God who created these sea  creatures being poisonous and deadly evolved different types of predatory and defensive mechanisms in order to survive themselves  that He is going to tell us to eat such and have harmful consequences? People 1400 years ago when the Quran was revealed do not have the means to know what is poisonous and what is not; it is not mentioned in the Quran.  When Allah says He provides what is good for you and pure He certainly is not talking about Poisonous creatures He created.  So is Allah contradicting Himself when He says He provides what is good for us? I do not think so, one must use their brain. The sea is full of snakes that only live in the sea.  Is Allah saying one can eat that too?
I can list you hundreds of creatures from the sea and land that even if you cook them, they still will cause extreme medical harm and even kill you, many people have died or are living with severe medical issues that has inflicted their entire life and it is irreversible and permanent, because on consuming some creatures from the sea. Do you think God does not know this but He is telling us to eat what we want from the sea? It does not make logic sense. God will not do this, it is like giving someone a loaded gun, with one bullet in it and telling them to pull the trigger and there are chances you will get the bullet that is in there or not when you pull the trigger. God is too merciful and just and will not do that. To me anyways it makes no sense. I do not say this because I am an animal lover, I cannot prohibit stuff or say Allah said it is prohibited when He does not, but there is certainly more in the Quran we have not found when it comes to the Sea creatures.  You mention sea weeds (great for facials btw, lol) but you know how much fungus weeds, among many other plants that live down in the sea that will kill you within minutes after you consume it? So did Allah mean everything in the sea knowing what He created down there will kill you? Is Allah trying to trick us and make us die after He tells us go ahead the sea it is open for everything?  How would the people way before the Quran was revealed know that some of these creatures will kill them if they consumed them? How would the people know this when the Quran was first revealed? They certainly did not. Why would Allah say such and contradict himself on wanting what is good for us?
taʾkulūna    laḥman    ṭariyyan
In verse 35:12 and other verses, it is some fresh tender meat. How can a poisonous creature be fresh tender meat? It is suppose to be good for us right? So how is that so? Does God have to spell it out for us or it is considered lawful? People are arrogant to understand that Allah does not have to spell everything out; it does not mean it is lawful. God tells us throughout the Quran to use our intellect. Therefore as for me, it makes no logic sense.  Knowing the God I love and respect above all things, He would never do that to His servants. As Allah says in many verses, 31:27 And if all the trees in the earth were pens, and the sea, with seven more seas to help it, were ink, the words of Allah could not be exhausted. Lo! Allah is Mighty, Wise. Same thing with verse 18:109. I wonder how confused people would be if He sent more books with the Quran? They still would justify things and not understand.
I seriously can careless what people do, but understand what God is saying instead of saying He is saying this and that. If one is unsure, we can guess but that leads to confusion and causing people to do things that God is not allowing. One needs to study and ponder on what God is saying. It is one HUGE do’s and don’ts, that all meets in the middle on every subject. Each verse in the Quran is so filled with knowledge and compacted in little few words for some and more for others to get the message out.

Thank you for posting these comments!

Regards,
Optimist

[Deliverance]

Salam all,
I think we have discussed enough in details ,so could someone make an illustraion of this theme,cause Joseph has quit this thread.

Something like a bubble in the Center(all Food/drink lawful) and then right/left bubble (exept blood, dead,swine,alcool ) and destinction between sea and land Food which is poisionous,harmful for People or Environment and used for riding(carnivore and carcass eater,beast of burden)

I

[optimist]

Anyway to make the point clearer let's take a look at some other verses,
 033.059
“O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters, and the believing women, that they should bring down (Arabic: Yudnina) over them their outer garment (Arabic: jalabibihin): that is most convenient, that they should be recognized (Arabic: Yu'rafna) and not given trouble. And God is Oft-Forgiving, Most Merciful.”

In the above verse, Allah uses the word ' Jilbab', Why does He do it? Because the Arab women were familiar with the term 'Jilbab'. now, can anyone say that Jilbab' is the only acceptable garment for women when they go out?? ' Jilbab' is named explicitly here, so other clothes that cover appropriately should still be haram according to the logic you guys are using.

Allah uses the word Jilbab because it covers the body appropriately and also it was a clothe the Arabs were already familiar with, that does not mean only Jilbabs are allowed for women! Similarly, from the other verses we can conclude that ' grazing animals' are halal. we cannot conclude other animals are haram. There is not enough information in the verses to deduce such a thing.

All the verses you guys are quoting just makes 'grazing animals' halal for consumption. They do not make other animals haram for consumption!

Salaam!

Sorry to say the discussion in the verse is not about JILBAB, whether wearing it is halaal or Haraam.  The question is regarding using Jilbaab to cover their bossom (24:31) without displaying their beauty. Therefore, I cannot find any links here with "grazing animals". 

About the donkey, mules and horses verse, yes, it is said that they are made for show and  for us to ride, but the verse does not say they are not for food! This is again a deduction! 

I can agree it is a deduction, but based on clear facts.  You have to read 16:8 with 6:142 where in it is clearly mentioned “some for burden and some for meat”.  The reference here is NOT about animals used simultaneously for burden and meat.  I can agree with you if you say their meat is not prohibited as such, however, their meat is not meant for food for us.  It may be that the horses were the main force for Jihad and were the protectors of the divine system and this could be one of the reasons why eating their meat was not encouraged and also it is quite logical that considering their valuable contribution in Jihad and other different uses, people (everywhere) do not normally eat them which Quran concurs (i.e., eating discouraged without bringing it under the category of prohibited animals).

Still my question; why all exclusions and discussion of animals are only from the category of "grazing animals"?  For all other categories of animals there are no exceptions mentioned...according to you, it is permissible to eat anything and everything.  As brother Joseph Islam has pointed out, if all animals are allowed,  God could have simply said only 'swine' is prohibited and everything else is lawful if that was the intention!!

Regards,
Optimist

[Joseph Islam]

Salamun Alaikum Brother Joseph,

I got another question about this topic..

I am not sure how to ask this without making it sound gross and perverted but here it goes...

Allah says for the meat when it is allowed to slaughter "Certain" animals.  I know that animals produce milk, eggs when they are alive. But isn't there a limitations, like I know blood is not allowed from the animal, how about body parts?

I was at this middle eastern restaurant/store a bit ago grabbing something, (non meat of course) when a lady nearly had a fit because they were out of testicles. I mean she was PISSED!  She than went to talk to the butcher and said her husband was craving testicles  and if it was possible if they can have some the following day. She actually insisted they slaughter some sheep to have more stock for testicles. I have even seen tongues (puking in my mouth) in the cooler as I close my eyes and look away..  I know many eat heads, brains, intestines and many many more..  I mean come on... lets kill an animal so we can eat it's private parts? Is this even permissible? Isn't it prohibited to slaughter thousands of innocent animals so they can be placed on a cooler shelf "GREED" or to get pacific body parts?

Shukrun in advance...

Wa alaikum assalam Abbsrayray

040.079
"It is God Who made cattle for you, that you may use some for riding and some for food (you eat)"

As well as verse 5:1, it is clear that cattle has been made lawful for food out of which some are for riding and other uses (16:8; 40:80). No other category of animal has been so explicitly mentioned for purposes of food and indeed, the overlaps are evident with the food category of the People of the Book.

Once a 'lawful' animal has been slaughtered for the purposes of food, then there are no further restrictions given as to what cannot be eaten from that animal. It is down to personal taste even though it may appear very unpalatable to another. Even if an animal is slaughtered for a particular body that of course, does not mean that the remainder of the animal will not be available for food. Such body parts are usually eaten as a result of the animal being slaughtered for its main purpose, which is its flesh.

I hope that helps, God willing
Joseph

[optimist]

Allah makes things unlawful when He mentions them explicitly in the Quran, just because other categories are not mentioned does not make them haram! Now, I ask you guys to give me a verse from the Quran that mentions other categories by name and makes them unlawful. Not verses from where you implicitly deduce such a prohibition, clear explicit verses.It can't be done because there is no such verse!

Salaam!

I believe this is your main point in the entire discussion.  If you are saying as a general principle that whatever not explicitly mentioned in the Quran as prohibited cannot be considered as forbidden, you are wrong.   If that is the case, the Quran would contain endless lists of prohibitions and permissions.  Based on the same logic, will you also say that Allah makes things lawful only when He mentions them explicitly in the Quran?  Your demand to show you explicit verses from Quran mentioning the categories of animals by names that are made unlawful is very silly.   Are you sure that the Arabs were even aware about all different categories of animals?   It is just sufficient to state the permissible animals in order to understand what are not permissible. 

Anyhow, it need not necessary that all lawful and unlawful things are to be explicitly mentioned in the Quran to make them lawful and unlawful.   At the same time, Quran being a complete source of guidance, we shall be able to deduct the permissibility and non permissibility of any given issue either through explicit verses,  implicit verses, including general principles contained in the Quran.  For example, permissibility or non permissibility of organ donation, smoking, etc is decided not based on whether they are explicitly mentioned in the Quran, but based on deductions and general principles contained in the Quran. According to me, even the instruction in the Quran to eat what is Tayib is sufficient to prove Dogs, Cats, Rats, etc are not allowed.

A perusal of the Quran indicates that not many things we face in our day today affairs are declared explicitly as Haraam.  For many things simply boundary lines are drawn.  And human thought and intellect is left independent, free to soar, within the boundaries thus prescribed, so that it is free to find the solutions for the different issues and problems. Islam is a collective system of life where affairs are decided by mutual consultations focusing on the principles and general guidelines contained in the Quran.   Based on this, if an Islamic society reaches a decision, say for instance, organ donation is permissible, the decision should be respected and binding on all, irrespective of individual differences of opinion. 

Correct me if I have made anything wrong in the above comments.

Regards,
Optimist

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Optimist,

Was your last message to me? I only asked BJ about body parts.

I am so done with all this.

Salaam

[optimist]

Salaam Optimist,

Was your last message to me? I only asked BJ about body parts.

I am so done with all this.

Salaam

Wassalam,
For your question, I think JI has answered you
Regards
Optimist

[Ismail]

Salaam.

DO YOU EXPECT THAT ALLAH IS FORBIDDING HERE (ALSO IN 6:145)  PEOPLE FROM DEDICATING  RATS, CATS, MONKEYS, AND DOGS TO OTHERS OTHER THAN ALLAH? (ALLAH FORBID!!)

But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Saba]

But I have seen people slaughter poultry on the altar of a Hindu temple in Andhra Prdesh, India.

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

Salaam Br Ismail. Poultry and grazing animals are eaten as part of lawful food. Do you know of any community or communities now or ever where dogs, cats, rats, lions or anything thing but livestock was sacrificed to gods?? especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?  Thanks Saba

[Deliverance]

Honeynectar and quails better then vegetable?

(56) And We caused the white cloud to overshadow you and sent down on you the manna and the quails, (saying): Eat of the good things wherewith We have provided you ...."(60) And when ye said: O Moses! We are weary of one kind of food; so call upon thy Lord for us that He bring forth for us of that which the earth groweth - of its herbs and its cucumbers and its corn and its lentils and its onions. He said: Would ye exchange that which is higher for that which is lower? ..."

Sorry for always interrupting your debate

[Ismail]

Salaam.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ashvamedha

Regards,
A. Ismail Sait.

[Saba]

Thanks for sharing br. Ismail. As per my post, I was referring to "especially at the time around Arabia when prophet muhammad (saw) was preaching?"  I am sure all sorts of things were sacrificed. I mean even the Quran recognized that humans were possibly sacrificed otherwise why would prophet Abraham even consider slaughtering his only son thinking it was from Allah (irrespective of whether or not Allah actually commanded it)? !!! But my question was more specific. Pls let me know if you have any info on that. As yet, I have not come across any info. Thanks Saba