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Offline Mubashir

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Thanks for commenting Sisters!

No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.

Personally, when reading the Quran, I visit the following website which has about 40 translations running together. If one does not make sense to me or appears contradictory or influenced by hadith (or Shaan e Nuzool) stories, I have an option to read others.

www.islamawakened.com

I find it quite useful and highly recommend to those of us who do not speak the language and even those who do.

Peace!

Offline Saba

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No scholar is perfect and Dr Shabbir has his share of strengths and weakness. With respect to Salat, if I have understood him correctly, he says it covers the ritual prayer but encompasses a much wider concept.

Oh come on br. Mubashir!!! you out of all ppl br Mubashir??? I have seen you almost banging your head against those who reject namaz on the ourbeacon forum and dr shabbir never comes to  your rescue, instead gives mixed messages galore... I am sure you know very well how many mixed messaged dr shabbir gives out on namaz... he has even gone so far as to deny that his guru Ghulam Parwez ever read namaz and even questions fasting!!!

http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/page/1/md/read/id/314123119192345

I mean can you believe this ...."A queer video: You might have seen Allama G.A.P. praying FOUR rak'ats completed in a brief HALF minute video. It was made to obviate a life threat on him in 1984."

I can dig out many threads where dr shabbir has questioned ritual prayer and namaz.. really brother,,, do u really need me to do this??pls br Mubashir ...lets be honest here and stop defending the indefensible .I really didn't expect this from you... Salaam Saba

Offline Saba

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Here is one thread where Dr Shabbir is attacking ritual prayer ...

http://www.ourbeacon.com/cgi-bin/bbs60x/webbbs_config.pl/md/read/id/314123119153857


br Mubashir do you really need me to dig out all the threads in which you have been a major part to show you how dr shabbir deals with those that almost attacked you for your views.???... did dr. shabbir ever come to your rescue???

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam Saba,

It is no different as for instance American English and the English in the UK.
Here is a Video of them doing their poems and talking. I understand ever single word they are saying. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Cd3g3o2Wq0Y

Now if Dr. Shabbir went to learn this language...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WOdI2lK_PDg  ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D
I have no idea. This is not talking nor Arabic. omg.. I can not stop laughing!!!

@2:19, you hear a guy saying "rest, you are tired, rest" that is the same words any araboc speaking person would use.  ;D after that, the ritual continues. Now, you be the judge, this is what happened around 1400 years ago. Can you see our Prophet doing this? LMAO!! NO. Does Dr. Shabbir speak Aarabic? I thought just Urdu?

When Allah says in many verses the Quran was sent in Arabic


I will tell you where they all get this idea... Hadith, without doubt, him himself trashing it, that is where Shabbir and many others get their idea. Muslim :: Book 4 : Hadith 1782 says "The Messenger of Allah (may peace be upon him) then said: Thus was it sent down. He then told me to recite and I recited it, and he said: Thus was it sent down. The Qur'an was sent down in seven dialects. So recite what seems easy therefrom."
 


"Bukhari :: Book 6 :: Volume 61 :: Hadith 510
 
Narrated Anas bin Malik:

Hudhaifa bin Al-Yaman came to Uthman at the time when the people of Sham and the people of Iraq were Waging war to conquer Arminya and Adharbijan. Hudhaifa was afraid of their (the people of Sham and Iraq) differences in the recitation of the Qur'an, so he said to 'Uthman, "O chief of the Believers! Save this nation before they differ about the Book (Quran) as Jews and the Christians did before." So 'Uthman sent a message to Hafsa saying, "Send us the manuscripts of the Qur'an so that we may compile the Qur'anic materials in perfect copies and return the manuscripts to you." Hafsa sent it to 'Uthman. 'Uthman then ordered Zaid bin Thabit, 'Abdullah bin AzZubair, Said bin Al-As and 'AbdurRahman bin Harith bin Hisham to rewrite the manuscripts in perfect copies. 'Uthman said to the three Quraishi men, "In case you disagree with Zaid bin Thabit on any point in the Qur'an, then write it in the dialect of Quraish, the Qur'an was revealed in their tongue." They did so, and when they had written many copies, 'Uthman returned the original manuscripts to Hafsa. 'Uthman sent to every Muslim province one copy of what they had copied, and ordered that all the other Qur'anic materials, whether written in fragmentary manuscripts or whole copies, be burnt. Said bin Thabit added, "A Verse from Surat Ahzab was missed by me when we copied the Qur'an and I used to hear Allah's Apostle reciting it. So we searched for it and found it with Khuzaima bin Thabit Al-Ansari. (That Verse was): 'Among the Believers are men who have been true in their covenant with Allah.' (33.23)"



Here is what Allah says 14:4, 42:7, 41: and 12:2 Allah says the Quran is in Arabic so we can understand... Now one who believes in Allah and puts their trust in Him, or do we believe what Allah is telling his ummah who He already knows what they will be able to do in the future before the Quran even came down or is one to believe what some guy is telling them about Arab people talking in the desert the language dialect on the time of the prophet?  When the Quran is reciting, it is the same language I understand when a person is speaking Arabic to me. I may not know all the words, but Arabic is Arabic just different accents like for instance, people living in the southern States have a different accent than people living in the northern or eastern States.

His motive seems very deceptive and dishonest in my opinion because how can a person who does not even acknowledge Allah requires us to pray 5x a day as mentioned be trusted about the desert Arabs?

Saudi Arabian people for instance, they have a slight different way how words sound in Arabic, it is usually how one pronounces the word that makes it different. As for me, one right away knows I am Palestinian when I talk, we have a way of stretching the words.. example.. yaamma,  others.. yama, i.e mom

Saudi and Egyptians might say Waliti which means mom but if I wanted to break it down it means person who gave birth to me.

It is all a money making business. Anyone who wants to write the Quran will go with what the Quran says in Allah's own words. People say well he changed his mind what he believes on this and that and regrets doing this and that.. I do not know about others, that just tells me how that persons thinking and knowledge is especially playing and distorting Allah's words.. They just crucified themselves with Allah as far as I am concerned..


Offline Saba

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Thank you sis   8) :) That was very helpful. Also I don't know where this impression comes from that all the arabs were nomad dwellers living from one place to other travelling in camels all day long. I mean, the qur'an even mentions the two great cities and they even asked about the prophet ...why was a great man not sent to the two cities? This does not mean that the quraish were beduoins either.. they may just have been city dwellers, like mentioned here ----> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=538

thanks again for your response .....Ma'salaam!!!!

Offline Duster

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Shalom / Peace. This is a good opinion on translations which I like. http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=383

Offline Mubashir

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Salam Sis Saba.

I get your point about Dr Shabbir leaning more towards Salat the system than Salat the prayer. I am basing my opinion after reading Dr Shabbir's comments such as:

"...Ritual prayer or Namaaz was a small part of Aqamatis-Salaat, i.e. establishing the System that facilitates the following of Divine Commands.

• The ritual prayer was always congregational.
• Women and men both formed this congregation, women on the right side of men.
• The frequency and timing of the congregations were determined by the State as needed. It was never fixed as five times a day ritual.
• Namaaz was performed with the Emir (governor) reciting some verses from the Qur’an relevant to the situation at hand as the congregation listened to him. The Emir would recite a few verses in the standing position as did the congregation behind him.
• Masjid was not a temple of worship. It was the Assembly, the School, the Municipality, the Parliament and the Government House. So, after that recitation, the leader and people would discuss real issues about the community, entertain questions, present bills, announce decisions of the Shura (Counsel) and the Assembly would legislate. People came up with their ideas addressing the problems facing the community and for betterment of the society. Masjid was also the place where the leaders were elected..."

My point was that he does not completely reject Salat the prayer. BTW Parwez always prayed and I find that Dr Shabbir believes that was not the case, quite odd. Br Joseph has posted an Urdu video where Parwez explains his take on Namaz.

Yes, I have had several disagreements with other members of ourbeacon forum over this issue but at the end I have been allowed to agree to disagree! Needless to say there are those who do agree with me.

All the best !  :)


Offline Saba

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Thanks br Mubashir  :) 8) 8)

PS: I remember the video that was shared:

Dear brother Haji,

As-salam alaykum

I would like to share a couple of verses for your consideration:

Verse 5:106 says that:  'Detain both of them 'after the salaat' (ba'di -l-salaat).

If 'salaat' just meant the establishment of a Divine system with a view to implement it, how would this verse be reconciled with such a concept considering that the believers were already in a state of establishing God's laws and the context is specific and 'immediate' to someone's demise?

Furthermore, in verse 62:10, the Quran says "Then when the salaat is concluded, finished or ended' (qudiyati).

How can such a Divine System of laws that one is expected to uphold 24x7 end or conclude?

Finally, with regards Ghulam Parwez's views on ritual prayer and what he really believed, I share with you a link to his video in which you can hear his views directly from his own mouth. I trust this will remove any ambiguity. This video has been shared with me by trusted Urdu speaking sources who have translated this for me independently and I am rest assured that this will provide you unequivocal evidence to satisfy your request, God willing.

BELIEFS OF ALLAMA GHULAM AHMAD PARWEZ
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fGgLSGnbhCk&sns=em

Kind regards,
Joseph.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1030.msg4133#msg4133


I mean I don't know how much br Joseph could understand from that video even though he says he had it translated, but I can tell you that I speak fluent Urdu and I can also tell you this....that there is absolutely no doubt from Ghulam Parwez's own mouth that he believed in the ritual prayer.

So Dr. Shabbir is not just being odd... IMHO he is being dishonest and disingenuous!!! How can you deny that video?????? If he can change the words of the teacher he looks up to.. what do you think will be happening in the QXP translation????
 

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam Saba,

They have no choice but to say beduoins because til now some still have tents set up in the desert. People assume Arab=Camel=desert... so who is left that some still having dwellings in some deserts? Buddings. If things are repeated and spoken about over and over like the media, one starts to believe what the person is saying is true. People adapt to different accents in their tonuge language if they are around an enviroment that does Put it this way... If it is not mentioned in the Quran, It ain't True! Some just want to confuse everyone.

Salaam

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam All

Subhanna Allah, This mans voice reciting the Quran is nothing but Beautiful, gives me chills.. His voice and style of recitation reminds me of Abul Bassit

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jivNz_i9QTU

Offline Mubashir

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Thanks for referring us to Br Joseph's article Duster. He writes:

"...(1) Please do your best to try to learn the language if you can. There is nothing better than accessing the Quran directly for yourself. However, be aware that the Quranic Arabic is not spoken today. It is a classical dialect / language and the vernacular of the Quraish who were a specific people of a specific time. .."

Wonder if that particular dialect is still in existence today in Saudi ?




Offline Mubashir

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Just a quick question to those who enjoy Quran recitations.

Is it permissible to recite the words of our Lord and Master in a singing fashion? Granted the recitation has rhythm to it, but is this even appropriate? This is a serious message of warning and hope and a guide for proper behavior and our relationship to Allah SWT and His Messengers.

If we are working for a company, would we read the rules and regulation of the company in a singing way? How would the owner of the company react?

Just asking, and please don't get upset.


We hold Quran recitation competitions. Don't we need Quran comprehension competitions more then recitation competitions?

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam Mubashir,

"Is it permissible to recite the words of our Lord and Master in a singing fashion? Granted the recitation has rhythm to it, but is this even appropriate? This is a serious message of warning and hope and a guide for proper behavior and our relationship to Allah SWT and His Messengers.

Well Allah says to recite it, I do not think it is a singing, but more of a flow like a Bahir if you will, waves in the sea.
There is not prohibit on reciting it. I think it is the most beautiful thing.


If we are working for a company, would we read the rules and regulation of the company in a singing way? How would the owner of the company react?

Lol, brother, you are funny and I mean that in a good way that you made me laugh. I think there is a HUGE difference.. OMG. LOOOOL...  They do too... https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RkXLPs5Pg_Y

I have never seen anything to say not to recite it in the way it is being recited, I would not call it singing, it is more of a rythem flow. I always thought this is how Allah intended. Amazing how their voice is, MashAllah, not many people can pull it off...    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=k1N_Y3_PMP4


Offline Saba

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Quote
It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?

I agree. As I said, a robust and verifiable methodology would be stated from the outset. You will note that no Quran translation exists that has done this - to my knowledge. This is a critical flaw in my view.

Salaam br. Wakas, have you thought maybe why it appears to you that no 'robust and verifiable methodology' exists? Maybe because all existing methodologies that translators have used that seem to them as being robust and verifiable are simply just not robust and verifiable to you. Lets look at it this way ... you write articles on salaat and the meaning of SJD and you then come up with meanings of masjid .. to you these must be robust and verifiable methodologies,  ... but that's it you see .. to others they are simply not robust, otherwise why do you not believe in 5 ritual prayers or that masjid is a mosque or a place for worship?? you see. ....there is disagreement with your what you think is your robust methodology. Then you issue challenges .. I have seen it often.. and when people don't respond... you may think that they have no response because they can't refute you, but maybe they just don't have the time or patience to go through pages and pages of your methodology because the end result seems not right to them. There are people on freeminds that have their own qur'an translation webpages but even they don't agree with your robust methodology.... so where is this 'robust and verifiable methodology' going to come from?????' or will it only be robust if it agrees with your definition of robust??? Thanks, Saba



Offline Zack

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Wow. This discussion has been active in the last day or so!!

As far as religious practices go, we need to be pragmatic and practical. Muhammad was born in to an environment of the East, with practices around him such as the following link.... http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=TRLFeldPG3Y

I do not believe Islam as understood by Muhammad was something started that was disconnected from all around it; instead it was the continuation and reflection of the Arab monotheistic groups at the time.

I also do not believe that Muhammad introduced a new long list of do's and don'ts stifling life and creativity. I am not sure if there has been a study on this, but singing not being a part of religious practice may possibly have been an Arab practice, I would be surprised if it was a universal Islamic religious law.

Wasalam
Daniel