Khamr

[Anwar]

Peace,

I know this has been discussed already and actually I do not have any questions on the issue but rather some statements.

1. I do not believe alchohol to be forbidden, given the Qur'an's use of sakar in what can be taken as a positive light in 16:67. The 'wa rizqan hasanan' can even be taken as a descriptive of the alcoholic drink taken from the products of (date) palms and grapes.

2. Khamr can mean: covering, wine, grapes, leavening (yeast or the fermentation process of yeast) as well as inebriation, intoxication and drunkenness.

3. Taking one of the meanings of khamr as 'to cover' and interpreting that into 'to cover one's mind' in the case of wine is etymological opinion. It is also one that proves irrelevant in front of meanings such as grapes and leavening.

4. Taking khamr as 'something that covers one's mind' and applying this to all inebriants/intoxicants is etymological conjecture on top of Classical Islamic qiyaas, which is no more than more conjecture to be brutally honest.

5. Khamr's valid meaning of drunkenness/inebriation, although less known fits the larger Quranic context of alcohol consumption better. First we have avoid 'khamr', avoid (tajannub/ijtinaab) is usually used for things that you may be faced with often. The Quran doesn't say avoid other sins, it just tells us not to do them. Secondly we have the Quran telling us not to pray while drunk. Yes this can be other sorts of stupors like extreme anger, sadness or even sleepiness (hmmm?), but this is opening up the fact that the Quran is showing us that we can be/are/will be engaging in a sort of behavior that may cause us to be drunk when it is time to pray.

6. As far as I understand inebriation is not limited to alcohol consumption and naturally applies to inebriation caused by non-alcoholic sources.

7. My conclusion is that while substances that can inebriate like wine and others are allowed, we are explicitly told to avoid inebriation which means limiting consumption. This makes accidental inebriation forgivable but not purposeful inebriation. In general the Quran tells us to stay away from what is harmful, to protect ourselves from harm and to engage and partake in 'at-tayyibaat.' If the substance we are using is harmful as far as we know, it is a sin for us to use it. If it inebriates us we are to limit consumption or abstain altogether

8. Acccording to 16:67, alcoholic drink make from atleast dates and grapes are good provision. However, we are expressedly told to avoid becoming inebriated.

9. If this bothers some because they want the Quran to be applied to the masses and know that the masses will not be able to show such self-discipline, intelligence and restraint I would like to remind everyone that the Quran does not say that it is for the masses. It says that it is for those who use intelligence, wisdom, ponder and carefully think. It says that most people (the masses) are like cattle or worse.

10. My advice is that if you cannot drink without getting drunk, do not drink Additionally over-consumption of alcohol is harmful to the body and the liver in particular. To engage in harmful activities that only serve to harm is against the fundamental concept of taqwaa in the Qur'an, which is self-protection or protection from harm in this life and the next.

Salaam

[ahmad]

Salam Anwar,

I have a few comments.

1. I do not believe alchohol to be forbidden, given the Qur'an's use of sakar in what can be taken as a positive light in 16:67. The 'wa rizqan hasanan' can even be taken as a descriptive of the alcoholic drink taken from the products of (date) palms and grapes.

[16:67]
And from the fruits of the palm trees and grapevines you take intoxicant and good provision. Indeed in that is a sign for a people who reason.

According to the verse "fruits of the palm trees and grapevines" are taken as intoxicant and good provision. This does not mean that intoxicants are part of the good provision. Its the "fruits of the palm trees and grapevines" that are.

10. My advice is that if you cannot drink without getting drunk, do not drink Additionally over-consumption of alcohol is harmful to the body and the liver in particular. To engage in harmful activities that only serve to harm is against the fundamental concept of taqwaa in the Qur'an, which is self-protection or protection from harm in this life and the next.

The Quran does not say do not to over consume it clearly says stay away from it.
[5:91]
Satan only wants to cause between you animosity and hatred through intoxicants and gambling and to avert you from the remembrance of Allah and from prayer. So will you not desist?

Additionally, the Quran states that its sin is greater than its benefit. It did not relate it to overconsumption. Therefore it can be deduced than this applies to any amount.
 [2:219]
They ask you about wine and gambling. Say, "In them is great sin and [yet, some] benefit for people. But their sin is greater than their benefit." And they ask you what they should spend. Say, "The excess [beyond needs]." Thus Allah makes clear to you the verses [of revelation] that you might give thought.

Thoughts ?

[Anwar]

Ahmed,

I understand your point. However, it would seem that you do not understand all of the grammatical functions of wa. 'wa' can be used an marker for further clarification.

And that is my point. Your understanding is valid, but so is mine according to Classical Arabic grammar. Rarely are phrses within Quranic verses limited to one understanding. Because the 'wa' CAN be being used as a marker for further clarification, who am I to disallow what is grammatically valid in that context?

Again, I also clearly explained the meanings of Khamr, pigeon-holing it as just 'wine' is an unwillingness to recognize the breadth of Classical Arabic words and their meanings.  Taking all of the valid meanings of these verses I find that alcohol is not forbidden, drunkenness is. I find this to be more consistent with all that the Qur'an says on the subject and to be even more comprehensive given that the state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol.

Salaam

It is okay if you disagree. This is a natural bias for those of us who grew up as tradtionalist Muslims or who are from culture's where the majority are traditionalist Muslim. So think on what I have said. If you do not understand it don't follow it. Afterall, the Quran says 'laa taqfu maa laisa laka bihi 3ilm', so it is sunnah/uswah to refrain from what we do not understand.

[ahmad]

Dear Anwar,

Please see my comments after the quotations.

I understand your point. However, it would seem that you do not understand all of the grammatical functions of wa. 'wa' can be used an marker for further clarification.

And that is my point. Your understanding is valid, but so is mine according to Classical Arabic grammar. Rarely are phrses within Quranic verses limited to one understanding. Because the 'wa' CAN be being used as a marker for further clarification, who am I to disallow what is grammatically valid in that context?

An example to what you are referring to are the verses that contain "The book and Wisdom" such as the following one.

[2:129]
Our Lord, and send among them a messenger from themselves who will recite to them Your verses and teach them the Book and wisdom and purify them. Indeed, You are the Exalted in Might, the Wise."

Some argue that wisdom is an something other than the book. However, when taking more verses into context we can deduce that wisdom here is part of the book. Therefore "WA" here is used as a marker for further clarification as you said.


However in verse 16:67, conflict will arise if you take "WA" to denote further explanation of intoxicants. Because in verse 2:219 it is clearly stated that its sin is greater than its benefit. For that reason, how can good provision be referring to intoxicants ?

Again, I also clearly explained the meanings of Khamr, pigeon-holing it as just 'wine' is an unwillingness to recognize the breadth of Classical Arabic words and their meanings.  Taking all of the valid meanings of these verses I find that alcohol is not forbidden, drunkenness is. I find this to be more consistent with all that the Qur'an says on the subject and to be even more comprehensive given that the state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol.

Taking the meaning of "Khamr" as "drunkenness" causes incompatibility with the same verse 2:219. Because how can drunkenness have some benefits. It is more logical to take the meaning as wine.

Furthermore, it is clear from verse 12:41 that "khamran" means wine.

[12:41]
O two companions of prison, as for one of you, he will give drink to his master of wine; but as for the other, he will be crucified, and the birds will eat from his head. The matter has been decreed about which you both inquire."

Finally, the fact that the "state of inebriation can be caused by substances other than alcohol" in my humble opinion is not a valid reason to assign drunkenness to the word "Khamr" given the evidence above.

Peace.

[Anwar]

Ahmed,

However in verse 16:67, conflict will arise if you take "WA" to denote further explanation of intoxicants. Because in verse 2:219 it is clearly stated that its sin is greater than its benefit. For that reason, how can good provision be referring to intoxicants ?

Khamr's sin/harm is greater than its benefit. This does not apply to sakar. Please stop conflating their meaning as intoxicant.

Taking the meaning of "Khamr" as "drunkenness" causes incompatibility with the same verse 2:219. Because how can drunkenness have some benefits. It is more logical to take the meaning as wine.

Ask anyone who uses any substance that induces a drunken state what the benefit of drunkenness is and they will clearly tell you...absence of stress and relaxation of the mind. That is a clear benefit. But the harm of that state is greater than the benefit. Please do not argue with me about whether this is truly a benefit or not given
the means through which it was acquired.

Furthermore, it is clear from verse 12:41 that "khamran" means wine.

The Qur'an is not a dictionary and Classical Arabic words, even in the Qur'an, are not limited to one meaning. 12:36 shows how khamr in its context should be understood in its meaning of grapes. I never denied that khamr also means wine. Rather, I am informing you and others that it can also mean 'an inebriated state' based on the Classical Arabic grammar of the verb 'khamira' in its meaning of 'to be inebriated.' This fits the context of 5:90 much better, especially when taking into consideration 4:43 and 16:67.

With that said, I am not seeing the benefit of this back and forth being more than its harm. I hope it is because you do not clearly understand my point. For that reason I will clarify again. My point is to show you that given what the Quran says in totality, it is more logical to interpret khamr in 5:90 as drunkenness instead of wine, unlike what we have in 12:41 where wine is more appropriate. As I stated earlier at 12:36, which is just previous, khamr is most appropriately understood in its meaning of grapes.

For more clarity, I am not giving khamr any new meaning. Nor am I negating any of its established meanings. I am showing how being fair with the grammatical implications of the passages that mention khamr, sakar, and sukaraa (sukraan) is more logical to take khamr in its meaning of drunkenness at 5:90.

Additionally, I believe that this creates a wider prohibition on the abuse of intoxicants in general rather than using the traditional Islamic process of qiyaas to arrive at a contrived meaning for khamr as any general intoxicant, which is certainly NOT its meaning.

I hope you can see my points. If you just flatly disagree there is no need for further challenging. I want to avoid arguing points that I have not made, like when you insinuated that I am somehow saying that khamr CANNOT mean wine. A point that I never made.

If you have questions about my stances, claims or conclusions please ask them and I will expound as much as I can to make them clear if they are not clear to you. Then, you can then decide on your own what to make of my conclusions and what I have based them on.

Salam

[Anwar]

Salam,

I find it somewhat significant that khamr in 5:90 is described as an 3amal or an action, i.e. 'min 3amali-sh-shaytaan.' 2:25 also implies that the things that we will be given in paradise will be similar to the things that we have been given on earth. This means that the things that we will enjoy in paradise are lawful to have here on earth, however in paradise they will be purified and improved. I hope this is a cause for further reflection on my above points.

[ahmad]

Dear Anwar,

I hope you can see my points. If you just flatly disagree there is no need for further challenging. I want to avoid arguing points that I have not made, like when you insinuated that I am somehow saying that khamr CANNOT mean wine. A point that I never made.

Let me start by saying that I am not challenging you. I am merely having a conversation with the intent to arrive at the best meaning.
Furthermore, I know that you know that khamr can mean wine. I was talking about its meaning at the context I was referring to in 12:41.

Khamr's sin/harm is greater than its benefit. This does not apply to sakar. Please stop conflating their meaning as intoxicant.

Sakar in 16:67 can mean intoxicants. See "Lesan-al-arab". And I think its more logical to take the meaning as such.

Ask anyone who uses any substance that induces a drunken state what the benefit of drunkenness is and they will clearly tell you...absence of stress and relaxation of the mind. That is a clear benefit. But the harm of that state is greater than the benefit. Please do not argue with me about whether this is truly a benefit or not given
the means through which it was acquired.

This was a weak argument from my part.

This fits the context of 5:90 much better, especially when taking into consideration 4:43 and 16:67

In 4:43 the prohibition of praying while in a state of "sukara" does not mean that in 5:90 it means drunkenness. 5:90 can be still referring to wine.

And in 16:67 as I said earlier, I think that wine fits "sakaran" better. Because the verse says "you take". Drunkenness cannot be taken because its a state it is experienced.

Additionally, I believe that this creates a wider prohibition on the abuse of intoxicants in general rather than using the traditional Islamic process of qiyaas to arrive at a contrived meaning for khamr as any general intoxicant, which is certainly NOT its meaning

Whether it creates a wider prohibition or not should not be taken as a reason to interpret khamr as "drunkenness".

This means that the things that we will enjoy in paradise are lawful to have here on earth, however in paradise they will be purified and improved

I understand what you are saying. But I feel that this is an interpolation from your part. As paradise is different than earth.

For more clarity, I am not giving khamr any new meaning. Nor am I negating any of its established meanings. I am showing how being fair with the grammatical implications of the passages that mention khamr, sakar, and sukaraa (sukraan) is more logical to take khamr in its meaning of drunkenness at 5:90

Given what I said above I see no special reason to take the meaning of "khamr" as the less popular meaning of drunkenness. Also can you please provide me with a reference from where you got this meaning.

Peace.

[Anwar]

Sakar does not mean drunkennes. I never said that sakar means drunkenness in 16:67. It also does not mean intoxicant according to Lisanul-Arab either.

والسَّكَرُ الخمر نفسها.
والسَّكَرُ شراب يتخذ من التمر والكَشُوثِ والآسِ، وهو محرّم كتحريم الخمر.
وقال أَبو حنيفة: السَّكَرُ يتخذ من التمر والكُشُوث يطرحان سافاً سافاً ويصب عليه الماء. قال: وزعم زاعم أَنه ربما خلط به الآس فزاده شدّة.
وقال المفسرون في السَّكَرِ الذي في التنزيل: إِنه الخَلُّ وهذا شيء لا يعرفه أَهل اللغة. الفراء في قوله: تتخذون منه سَكَراً ورزقاً حسناً، قال: هو الخمر قبل أَن يحرم والرزق الحسن الزبيب والتمر وما أَشبهها.
وقال أَبو عبيد: السَّكَرُ نقيع التمر الذي لم تمسه النار، وكان إِبراهيم والشعبي وأَبو رزين يقولون: السَّكَرُ خَمْرٌ.
وروي عن ابن عمر أَنه قال: السَّكَرُ من التمر، وقال أَبو عبيدة وحده: السَّكَرُ الطعام؛ يقول الشاعر: جَعَلْتَ أَعْرَاضَ الكِرامِ سَكَرا أَي جعلتَ ذَمَّهم طُعْماً لك.
وقال الزجاج: هذا بالخمر أَشبه منه بالطعام؛ المعنى: جعلت تتخمر بأَعراض الكرام، وهو أَبين مما يقال للذي يَبْتَرِكُ في أَعراض الناس.
وروى الأَزهري عن ابن عباس في هذه الآية قال: السَّكَرُ ما حُرِّمَ من ثَمَرَتها، والرزق ما أُحِلَّ من ثمرتها. ابن الأَعرابي: السَّكَرُ الغَضَبُ؛ والسَّكَرُ الامتلاء، والسَّكَرُ الخمر، والسَّكَرُ النبيذ؛ وقال جرير: إِذا رَوِينَ على الخِنْزِيرِ مِن سَكَرٍ نادَيْنَ: يا أَعْظَمَ القِسِّينَ جُرْدَانَا وفي الحديث: حرمت الخمرُ بعينها والسَّكَرُ من كل شراب؛ السَّكَر، بفتح السين والكاف: الخمر المُعْتَصَرُ من العنب؛ قال ابن الأَثير: هكذا رواه الأَثبات، ومنهم من يرويه بضم السين وسكون الكاف، يريد حالة السَّكْرَانِ فيجعلون التحريم للسُّكْرِ لا لنفس المُسْكِرِ فيبيحون قليله الذي لا يسكر، والمشهور الأَول، وقيل: السكر، بالتحريك، الطعام؛ وأَنكر أَهل اللغة هذا والعرب لا تعرفه.
وفي حديث أَبي وائل: أَن رجلاً أَصابه الصَّقَرُ فَبُعِثَ له السَّكَرُ فقال: إِن الله لم يجعل شفاءكم فيما حرم عليكم.

If you search through the above you will see that sakar does not mean intoxicant. If you are using circular logic please don't. Sakar does not mean intoxicant because it is defined as khamr. Sakar means WINE because it is defined as intoxicant. When I see khamr mentioned with other roots i do not define those roots using the meaning of intoxication/inebriation because I know what is meant is the more popular meaning of wine.

The meaning for khamr as general drunkenness/inebriation comes from the following also in Lisanul-Arab:

ورجل مَخْمُورٌ: به خُمارٌ، وقد خُمِرَ خَمْراً وخَمِرَ

A man that is makhmoor is effected by Khumaar and he khamira khamran, i.e. has become effected by khumaar. Khamran is the indefinite, accusative (nakirah mansoobah) of Al-khamr. So here Al-khamr is 'to be effected by khumar.'

وخُمارُها: ما خالط من سكرها

khumar: What befalls of drunkenness/inebriation.

I still disagree with khamr as general intoxicants despite the fact that it seems that part of its etymological logic is from it covering one's mind. Here is why. Lisanul-Arab says:

والخَمْرُ ما خَمَر العَقْلَ، وهو المسكر من الشراب

Al-khamr is what covers the mind; it is drinkable inebriant. So at best we can call any drink that inebriates khamr...so marijuana tea or opium tea can be called khamr but not other intoxicants.

The best that Mu'jam Al-faadh Al-Qu'ran gives us is by saying "For some people it is a name for any intoxicant." When he says 'for some people' he is saying that this is not how the word is generally understood because this is not what he states whenever defining a word straight out. He actually doesn't define khamr in its capacity of wine or alcoholic drink at all. He assumes that everyone knows what it is and give its etymology.

Salam

[Anwar]

Sakar means WINE because it is defined as intoxicant.

Please take the above sentence and strike it. Sakar is defined as khamr in its capacity of wine. Wine being defined as what intoxicates from the juice of grapes, as well as from dates, honey or other substances.  Sakar has some other meanings as well being food (possibly referring to sugar here), anger, fullness, and nabeedh, which is also another word for wine.

I hope with my previous post I proved the use of Al-Khamr as inebriaton/drunkeness/intoxication and that khamr does not many any intoxicant. This is what I set out to show you and then to posit that given that we are not to pray while drunk and that sakar, in its meaning of wine, can be good provision that intoxicants are not what is forbidden in the Qur'an but rather intoxication.

Salam

[Anwar]

Forgive my spelling mistakes and typos. I meant to say 'does not mean any' in that last post instead of 'does not many any.'

Salam

[ahmad]

Salam Anwar,

Here is quotation from lesan al arab.

والخَمْرُ ما خَمَر العَقْلَ، وهو المسكر من الشراب،

Here khamr can mean any substance that intoxicates the mind. So there is no need for "Qias" to include other substances other than wine.

So if we take this meaning of khamr as the above. Then both drunknesses and the substance itself are forbidden. Even if one can take the substance without being drunk.

Furthermore, i think that its hard to accept your interpretation of kamr being drunkenness on the basis of the availability of the above meaning. And the following verse:

[2:168]
O mankind, eat from whatever is on earth [that is] lawful and good and do not follow the footsteps of Satan. Indeed, he is to you a clear enemy.

If it is as you say, that drunkenness is what is forbidden not wine. Then you will be conflict with 2:168 as clearly drinking wine without getting drunk is taking a footstep towards what is forbidden.

Thoughts ?

peace.

[Anwar]

Ahmed,

Please translate the whole quotation. You conveniently omit وهو المسكر من الشراب

which I did not omit and included in my translation.

It translates as ", and it is drink that inebriates."

Furthermore, i think that its hard to accept your interpretation of kamr being drunkenness on the basis of the availability of the above meaning

Did I not quote for you the meaning of khamr as inebriation or khumaar? I specifically quoted it for you from lisanul-Arab as well. Please stop playing games.

Here it is a again

ورجل مَخْمُورٌ: به خُمارٌ، وقد خُمِرَ خَمْراً

"A man who is makhmur: He is drunk."

What follows 'khumaar' is 'qad khamira khamran.' This is the grammatical construction of how to say that the man became drunk. Khamran is the indefinite, accusative form of 'khamr' being used an adverb. When you see this construction it is making it clear that 'khamr' is the verbal noun of khamira. So khamira is 'he got drunk' and 'khamr' is 'getting drunk.' Do you understand now? 

If it is as you say, that drunkenness is what is forbidden not wine. Then you will be conflict with 2:168 as clearly drinking wine without getting drunk is taking a footstep towards what is forbidden.

What? And how is that the case? How is 'Do not follow the footsteps of the evil one/the evil ones/Satan' mean taking a step towards what is forbidden? I really do not understand this logic.

1. Don't get inebriated and 2. if you happen to get inebriated, don't pray. 3. Don't lose your payer.

That's the message. Following Satan's footsteps would be drinking in amounts or in a way that will get you drunk, and this would be compounded it if is inhibiting your ability to pray.

Peace.

[ahmad]

Dear Anwar,

Please stop playing games

Since you labeled my sincere attempt to find the best meaning with you regarding this topic as "playing games". I see that there no reason for me to continue this discussion with you.

Consider this reply as my last on this thread.

I wish you the best in this life and the next.

Peace.

[Anwar]

Ahmed,

Thank you. I wish you the best in this life and the next as well.

Salam.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Anwar,

Alcohol of ANY KIND is EXTREMELY forbidden!! After reading your comments, you are trying to justify how it can mean one thing and not the other, justifying it until you start actually believing it is the truth.  If you want to drink, go for it, that is between The Creator and you.
But indicating it DOES NOT mean what it actually is spelled out clearly for us, Maybe you should focus on this verse... 17:36

http://quransmessage.com/articles/intoxication%20FM3.htm