Program of Creation of Man on Earth, in light of Quran.

[Hassan A]

Parroting "F e s t i n g e" doesn't refute the arguments at hand, body

True. But that quote from him accurately describes you.

Peace.

[hicham9]

True. But that quote from him perfectly describes you.

Whatever helps you sleep at night, kid !

[samson]

Actually, beside Q88:20, i also presented you with a clear and stable, RAW footage (with a rectilinear lens) showing the FLAT earth from a high-altitude of 120,000 ft, along with a scientific paper by the Optical Society of America, testifying that the required elevation for detecting earth's alleged curvature is somewhat between 14,000 and 35,000 ft high !

Hicham,

I actually hold the view that geocentric is model is correct but I find it hard to accept that the earth is flat but I'm open to should there be more convincing evidence than you've already cited.

My question to you is, let's say the earth is flat and geocentrism is true, is there much point in trying to convince believers in God of this?

[Truth Seeker]

Dear all,

This topic has been exhausted and the tone has descended into personal digs which is against forum policy 2a and 2b.

Therefore I am closing this thread and request that there be no further discussions on the Earth being flat or not.

Thanks

[Star]

Salam Hassan,

It was hilariously entertaining to watch your debate with Hicham9. Anyway, I have an actual question about this. The earth's age is 1/3 the age of the universe (4.5 bil years vs. 13.5 bil years).

"Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days
     And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
+
     He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
     and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things
4    to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days
     in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

     Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
     and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth:
     "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
     They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
+
2    So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,
     and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
     And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
     and (provided it) with guard.
     Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge. "
                                            -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)

The Quran says the earth was created in 2 periods and it took 6 days to create the whole universe. This fits with what we know about the age of the universe.

However, it says the earth's sustenance was "measured in FOUR days." I think this could mean its sustenance was PREDETERMINED before any of it was created, and these 4 days occurred BEFORE the heavens and the earth were actually created. This would make more sense than saying the earth's sustenance was created in 4 out of the 6 days, right?

What do you think of this interpretation?

Mariyah

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Mia 666,

I am not sure if you read the other topic, but Hicham9 has been removed from this forum.
Other members are free to carry on with this topic.

Thanks

[samson]

As I said earlier, I believe "six" days is of significance and the fact that there is no further confirmation that those days are thousands or tens of thousands of years or more.

But again, on what grounds can you assert that the word ayyamin (as in 6 ayyamin) automatically means six(6) human days? I am of the opinion that the word ayyamin (as in 6 ayyamin) means six periods or epochs, and not six human days; but if you say otherwise, then the burden is on you to prove said assertion from the Quran.
So when the Quran says that Allah created the universe in six days, that would mean six days with Allah, but for us it would be mean six periods or epochs.

Just one or 2 evidences will do for now as if too many is listed it's hard to take it all in and respond to them.

I will bear that in mind.

Hassan are you done with the above or are you still gathering the evidence?

[Hassan A]

Salaam samson,

No I am not done with our discussion. School resumed, so I've been burden with school-work.

God-willing I shall cite you those sources I was referring to. Apologies for the wait.

In the mean time, have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/scientific_age_earth.html

Peace.

[Hassan A]

Salaam mia666,

You said:

I have an actual question about this. The earth's age is 1/3 the age of the universe (4.5 bil years vs. 13.5 bil years).

"Say: Is it that ye deny Him Who created the earth in TWO Days
     And do ye join equals with Him? He is the Lord of (all) the Worlds.
+
     He set on the (earth), mountains standing firm, high above it,
     and bestowed blessings on the earth, and measured therein all things
4    to give them nourishment in due proportion, in FOUR Days
     in accordance with (the needs of) those who seek (Sustenance).

     Moreover He comprehended in His design the sky,
     and it had been (as) smoke: He said to it and to the earth:
     "Come ye together, willingly or unwillingly."
     They said: "We do come (together), in willing obedience."
+
2    So He completed them as seven firmaments in TWO Days,
     and He assigned to each heaven its duty and command.
     And We adorned the lower heaven with lights,
     and (provided it) with guard.
     Such is the Decree of (Him) the Exalted in Might, Full of Knowledge. "
                                            -- Sura 41:9-12 (Yusuf Ali)


The Quran says the earth was created in 2 periods and it took 6 days to create the whole universe. This fits with what we know about the age of the universe.

However, it says the earth's sustenance was "measured in FOUR days." I think this could mean its sustenance was PREDETERMINED before any of it was created, and these 4 days occurred BEFORE the heavens and the earth were actually created. This would make more sense than saying the earth's sustenance was created in 4 out of the 6 days, right?

What do you think of this interpretation?

I concur with the/a answer given by a former member of this forum when he/she said the following about the above:

This verse does not use the conjunction "then", it uses "and" so it is not saying that after he created the earth he put mountains on it etc.. Rather he is saying that he created the Earth in two days and he placed mountains and he blessed it and..etc. There is no "then". He is just describing his creation.

Furthermore, Allah determined the creatures sustenance in four days. This does not mean that he took 2 days to create the Earth and then another 4 in sustaining the Earth. This is because of the lack of usage of "then" or "thumma".

Rather it means that Allah determined/measured/decreed the sustenance of creatures in 4 days.

Peace.

[samson]

Salaam samson,

No I am not done with our discussion. School resumed, so I've been burden with school-work.

God-willing I shall cite you those sources I was referring to. Apologies for the wait.

In the mean time, have a look at this:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Age_of_the_Earth

http://www.talkorigins.org/faqs/dalrymple/scientific_age_earth.html

Peace.

No problem, school is important.

Lets start with the basics. How do planets/stars/asteroids etc. form? It's not accretion. If you think it is then show me real experoments which prove this.

[Hassan A]

How do planets/stars/asteroids etc. form?

I think the following two sites will suffice

How stars form:
http://www.universetoday.com/24190/how-does-a-star-form/

How planets form:
http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/discovering_planets_beyond/how-do-planets-form

Forgive me for asking, but do you by any chance adhere to the young earth creationist view of with regards to the age of the earth and universe? If yes, what theory, if any, do you have with respect to the 'true' age of the earth/universe?

[samson]

How do planets/stars/asteroids etc. form?

I think the following two sites will suffice

How stars form:
http://www.universetoday.com/24190/how-does-a-star-form/

How planets form:
http://hubblesite.org/hubble_discoveries/discovering_planets_beyond/how-do-planets-form

Forgive me for asking, but do you by any chance adhere to the young earth creationist view of with regards to the age of the earth and universe? If yes, what theory, if any, do you have with respect to the 'true' age of the earth/universe?

Good research. However like the vast majority of people you've been mislead by articles such as this. They come across as providing a scientific explanation yet there is no citation of experiments to prove/demonstrate their explanation.

Take a look at the following link which involves actual real experimentation.

http://groups.csail.mit.edu/mac/users/wisdom/extrasolar/Canup.pdf

I think it helps to understand what the facts are first before going on to making speculations about what may/may not have happened in the past which we have no idea of proving beyond doubt.

[Hassan A]

I will take A look at the article you cited me and will then raise any concerns/question/disagreements I may have with it.

However like the vast majority of people you've been mislead by articles such as this

With all due respect, I can say the same of you.

I think it helps to understand what the facts are first before going on to making speculations about what may/may not have happened in the past which we have no idea of proving beyond doubt.

There exists a contradiction in that statement. If there can be no way of proving past event beyond a doubt, then how can we truly know what the facts are? Furthermore, If we (can have) no why of proving past events then that not only dismisses my argument but it dismiss your as well, and makes both our theories and understandings nothing more than mere speculations.

[Star]

Salam

I'm not entirely sure what Hassan and Samson are debating about, but anyway, I'm not here ro comment on that ... I just wanted to reply to Hassan's interpretation. It seems like it agrees with mine, and the actual sequence of events is not specified in this verse. This seems like intentional vagueness and is not incidental. Just a thought

[samson]

Hassan, the link below may make for easier reading.

https://ay201b.wordpress.com/2011/04/11/formation-of-planetesimals/ - Section "The first half of the story: from dust to planetesimals"

The key paragraphs are:

"But what about the first chapters: how do we even get planetesimals in the first place?  How do tiny dust particles build up to create compact solids a kilometer in diameter?  This is one of the major questions remaining in planet formation research and although much progress has been made, the first half of the book as yet to be written."

and

"Growth of planetesimals gets increasingly difficult as sizes approach a meter because binding energies decline while relative velocities increase.  According to Chambers (2010), with turbulence disruptive collisions between a meter-sized and a much smaller planetesimal are frequent because relative speeds of 100 m/s are often reached and it is difficult to get larger bodies.  Youdin (2008) also discusses other issues (both theoretical and observation) with growing large bodies via collisions.  Since we need kilometer-sized planetesimals to proceed with the second half of our story, we have a problem which is usually called the “meter-size barrier” in the literature."

To summarise, dust does not naturally collect and form a larger and larger mass.