HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM

[Wakas]

peace Hassan,

Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?

Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran.

From my experience some students of Quran say they base their practice of those things from Quran but often don't.

Can you give us a very brief overview on your take on:
salat
hajj
sawm
zakat

[Hamzeh]

Salamu Alykum

Dear Brother Wakas

If I may give my opinion on the question you asked Brother Hassan A.

What I think your trying to bring out of Brother Hassan is that the Quran does not make any mention of specific fine information like how many times in prayer one has to bow and the rate of zakat and so on... And that muslims who are Quran centric tend to somehow resort to practices that are not explained in fine detail in the Quran.

I believe this is what your trying to get to? Correct me if I'm wrong.

What is really important is that the Quran furnishes all the important details of what would be required of prayer, hajj, zakat, fasting etc. I do agree and so do all the Quran centric folk that the Quran does not explain fine details. There seems to be a very important reason why.

GOD wants people to use their abilities to THINK, and put into PRACTICE what He has ordered. If GOD willed He could of been more specific, but He did want people to use their minds and to come up with a systematic way of performing what He has ordered. There is a great example of this in the story of Moses when he told his people that GOD commands you to sacrifice a cow (2:67-2:71). I believe the Prophet was humble enough to take wisdom from this story.

He did not want to be like them and ask so many questions and act like he did not know how. He understood that GOD wants and allows people to THINK. He did not cry out to GOD after GOD has specified in the Quran loads of details of all aspects and tell him I'm still confused. Can you explain more to me. Or that there was an absence of form.

No, He took what He believed was fully detailed and worked with what He was given. If their was anything wrong with the ways he performed his duties then it would of been made mention in the Quran.

The Prophet did indeed use his brain to come up with a system of zakat, a system of prayer, a system of upholding justice, and a system of fasting that would add the finer detail of what we see not included in the Quran.

And also there is more great wisdom in why there is a absence of finer detail regarding the aspects you mentioned. For example, believing Muslims who ALWAYS look to the Quran as their source of guidance from generation to generation would realize that their rate of zakat would need to be changed revolving around the situations they are in. The ritual prayers might be performed differently according to the situations they encounter.

Please see this article below
A SIMPLE INSTRUCTION CONFOUNDS MANY - 'ESTABLISH SALAAT'
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/487157614754704

Salam dear brothers

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam ZKAB90

As someone else mentioned here, the word 'hadith' has already been used in the Quran elsewhere but not where you are implying it exists.

Why would God say that the quran is complete yet ask believers to follow hadith  as well. Which hadith?...by whom..?.shia or sunni?...by definition all the 'saheeh' hadith are true regardless of being from shia or sunni? So why all the arguments about disproving each sects position.

There are so many contradictions in the hadith literature that if we were to believe that they were God ordained, then it would be so easy to lose faith in Islam.

It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.

Thanks

[ZKAB90]

It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.

Aleikum salam,


Are you trying to say indirectly that the Qur'an is created, i.e. that is destined only for a specific time, like the time of Muhammad, and not this time in which we are living now?

[Zack]

peace Hassan,

Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?

Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran.

Can you give us a very brief overview on your take on:
salat
hajj
sawm
zakat

Hello all,

Responding to the posts above, in particular the origins of Salat, Hajj etc... Everything PRE-EXISTED Muhammad. In fact the ritituals go all the way back to Abraham.  For example please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y

I believe Ramadan, salat was already practiced by Mecca prior to the revelation of the Qur'an. The message of the Quran is not about formulas for rituals, but the opposite.... The Quran is about the recognising of diversity in the Ummah and not forcing a specific ritual. The Quran is about unity, those previously saying "Our formula is correct", but instead a message of repentance from associating gods with God.

This is what is the tendency of the Quran centric movement, in removing later tradition it removes the text from its context, and end up trying to find a verse for every situation in the 21st century.

I said in another post that the concept of Mecca being in "Jahiliyah" is a later tradition. Mecca and the Arab tribes already knew of Salat, Ramadan etc... however lived compromised pseudo-faith..partly due to not having an Arabic Kitab; which is what is confronted by the Quran.

Someone mentioned about the pre-existence of the Qur’an... I believe this is a tradition that emerged far later. The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad. 

Wasalam
Zack

[ZKAB90]

The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad.

So now it is not relevant according to you?

Thinking in this way is counter-productive for the correct development of the religion. But maybe the Qur'an-centric position, and specially the contextualization of the Qur'an in a specific time-space lead to deny the validity of the Qur'an until the Last Day.

According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.

[Zack]

The Qur’an was clearly revealed at the time of Muhammad for, as Truth Seeker says, to be relevant for the context of Muhammad.

So now it is not relevant according to you?

According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.

I have never said the Quran is not relevant to now.. I have said that it is relevant to the historical context of Muhammad. And SOME contexts change. Please see the my latest post on recent discussion on the Sharia law...

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?action=profile;u=4253

Re "orthodox School of Thought", is any one on this forum following that? 

Wasalam
Zack

[Zack]

According to orthodox school of thought, this kind of thought is clear Bid'ah, a heretic thought.

I meant to say in regards the idea of "Orthodox"... Someone once said, "Orthodoxy = the strongest heresy" Ie. If you are in Utah, USA.... The mormon belief is Orthodoxy... "Orthodox" is just what the majority is following. The day our allegience is with what is "orthodox", that is the day of stagnation.

Wasalam

[Hassan A]

Salaam ZKAB90,

It is very clear when in the Quran, God is asking the belivers to obey the prophet, it is referring to those people around him in his lifetime !
The prophet is their leader and commander in chief and they must
of course follow and trust in him and his commands.

Are you trying to say indirectly that the Qur'an is created, i.e. that is destined only for a specific time, like the time of Muhammad, and not this time in which we are living now?

With respect, that is a misrepresentation of what brother / sister Truth Seeker was saying. He / she wasn't arguing that the Quran was destined only for a specific time; rather he / she was making the case (as I have on a different thread) that the first directive of the command 'obey the messenger' was clearly to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on. Consider this: Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God's revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad's delivery of the Quran. The Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth. This makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message.

Peace.

[Hassan A]

Salam Zack,

Responding to the posts above, in particular the origins of Salat, Hajj etc... Everything PRE-EXISTED Muhammad. In fact the ritituals go all the way back to Abraham.  For example please see: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TRLFeldPG3Y

I believe Ramadan, salat was already practiced by Mecca prior to the revelation of the Qur'an. The message of the Quran is not about formulas for rituals, but the opposite.... The Quran is about the recognising of diversity in the Ummah and not forcing a specific ritual. The Quran is about unity, those previously saying "Our formula is correct", but instead a message of repentance from associating gods with God.

I fully concur. The simple point I was making in my initial response to ZKAB90 was that: if we wish to exemplify the prophet should we, then, not uphold the same and only scripture he upheld and draw (religious) inspiration/guidance from the same scripture he drew it from?

Peace.

[ZKAB90]

Aleikum salam Hassan;

You say that Ahadith are not Hikmah with discutable points.

As I told you the prophecies are the greatest points to approve it. Then, you respond telling me that Muhammad could not know about the future... However this verse I think it will defintely break your argument. Look:

[He is] Knower of the unseen, and He does not disclose His [knowledge of the] unseen to anyone http://quran.com/72/26

Except whom He has approved of messengers, and indeed, He sends before each messenger and behind him observers http://quran.com/72/27

Checkmate.

[Nura]

Salam ZKAB90

That is probably the weakest argument so far! God reveals knowledge of the unseen to the messengers.... Let's see what is that unseen... Quran, hence the messengers, talk about God... Have u seen God? So He is unseen... What else... Let's see... Prophet also talks about Jinns have u seen them? They are unseen as well... The angels they are unseen as well... Just to name a few unseen things only... So the Quran was not saying prophet knew when the end will come... Clear verses in the Quran say that the prophet doesn't know... Implicit verses taken out of context mean absolutely nothing.... Btw the verse u quoted actually hint to what unseen things God is talking about... God sends osbservers, they are angels... God sends angels.. They are unseen... So checkmate back at u....

[ZKAB90]

Salam ZKAB90

Aleikum salam Nura.

Have u seen the future? No, it is unseen. However, Muhammad foretold many things.

That So the Quran was not saying prophet knew when the end will come

Not only the Qur'an! The Ahadith saying the same thing, i.e. that he doesn't know when the world will be end, but he gave many signs about.

I know the truth is hard to swallow... Again, checkmate.

[Nura]

Salam ZKAB90
Do u even realise that we oppose ur so called prophecies because they r not in the Quran?
The hadith is not revelation even if it says somethings that happen to occur by chance! If the Quran contained these prophecies I wouldnt argue with u!

Knowledge of future, specifically signs about hereafter was not given to the prophet. The Quran says so. I never said Quran did not make prophecies! I believe the prophecies in the Quran only because I believe it is a book from God! Not that I beleive in Quran because of the prophesies. It is always the other way around with u. What I believe to be the cause u believe to be the affect!

Btw I am not a prophet so knowledge of unseen is not revealed to me! So, me being not able to see the future is neither here nor there! I am not someone who is unseen or possesses knowledge of the unseen.
 
You want to believe in a collection of sayings to be holy that is not sanctioned by God, be my guest! But I for one won't believe in anything beyond reason solely because fear of uncertainty is dreadful and unbearable for some ppl!

I believe this is the last time I am replying to you! We have very different approach towards thinking about religion and logic! I am convinced we will never see eye to eye! God bless!

[ZKAB90]

I believe this is the last time I am replying to you! We have very different approach towards thinking about religion and logic! I am convinced we will never see eye to eye! God bless!

GOD - there is no deity save Him, the Ever-Living, the Self-Subsistent Fount of All Being. Neither slumber overtakes Him, nor sleep. His is all that is in the heavens and all that is on earth. Who is there that could intercede with Him, unless it be by His leave? He knows all that lies open before men and all that is hidden from them, whereas they cannot attain to aught of His knowledge save that which He wills [them to attain]. His eternal power overspreads the heavens and the earth, and their upholding wearies Him not. And he alone is truly exalted, tremendous. http://islamawakened.com/quran/2/255/

I do not see contradiction in that the Prophet could be allowed to know the future and then people write down his prophecies. However, Nora, I'm not afraid.

It is only the logic. This verse confirm that this isn't a contradiction: this very verse not confirm the truth of the Ahadith but it don't deny too. It open the door to many possibilities.