Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM

Offline ZKAB90

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« on: May 02, 2016, 03:06:52 PM »
HIKMA means HADITHS, and not WISDOM, as many Quran-alone followers claim. This VERY SHORT response given by a Hadith follower amazed me:

QURAN-ALONE CLAIM: the word ‘bihee’ (with it) that appear at the end of the verse [2, 231] is in the singular mode, in other words it describes one thing and not two. For that reason the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ must denote one thing and not two, unless of course God is making grammatical mistakes!

If the words ‘Al-Hekmah’ and ‘Al-Ketab’ really referred to the Quran and the Sunna, then the verse should grammatically end with the word ‘bihima’ (with them), which is the plural mode of ‘bihee’.

HADITH-FOLLOWER CLAIM: This is the same point raised by Farouk Peru before. The answer is the Dhamir Muttasil “hi” refers to “ma” in verse. It doesn’t refer to “Al Hekmah” and Al Kitab” but Ism Mausul “ma” in the verse.

The source is http://antiantihadeeth.blogspot.be/2008/05/defending-imam-syafiee-from-anti.html

Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #1 on: May 04, 2016, 07:43:17 AM »
Asalamu Alykum

I'm quite confused about what your trying to say here.

Most people who follow the Quran, believe the term Hikma means and refers to Wisdom.

Also I find that the site you provided clearly displays that the word Hikma is best defined as Wisdom from the debate.

Please see an example bro Joseph used to display how the Quran uses the Arabic.

Quote
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
 
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).
 

Now compare that verse when God is telling us about the Book and the Hikma.

Also another verse to ponder about is this one
33:34 And remember what is recited in your houses of the verses of Allah and wisdom. Indeed, Allah is ever Subtle and Acquainted [with all things].

The word Hikma(wisdom) cannot be a separate entity of the verses of Allah. Because then a question of what were these Wisdom that was being recited to them by the Prophet? And Where are they if they are different than the Quran?

These verses were clearly being recited. So there should of been something that was written or was memorized at the time of the Prophet that He had with him.

This cannot be referring to the secondary sources that was written by other men many many decades after the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh).

Peace

Offline Duster

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 426
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #2 on: May 04, 2016, 07:48:31 AM »
Shalom / peace


...I think this article debunks the traditional view .......

DOES 'HIKMAH' (WISDOM) MEAN SUNNA OF THE PROPHET MUHAMMAD? (pbuh) - http://quransmessage.com/articles/hikmah%20FM3.htm

Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 463
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #3 on: May 04, 2016, 10:56:34 AM »
Salamu Alykum

I should if been more clear. The term Hikma in the verses do not relate to sources other than the Quran. The Hikma (Wisdom) is referred to the Quran itself. See how the Arabic "wa" is used in another verse which explains the verses being questioned about the Book and the Wisdom. You will realize that this is normal and the Arabs are fimiliar with such writing.

Quote
055:068
"In both of them (are) fruits (Arabic: fakihatun) and (wa) date-palms and (wa) pomegranates"
 
Here the conjunction 'wa' (and) when used with date-palms and pomegranates only clarifies the 'fruits' and is not read as separate from the category of fruits (fakihatun).

Peace and blessings Insha'Allah

Offline ZKAB90

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #4 on: May 05, 2016, 08:33:50 PM »
Salamu Alykum

I should if been more clear. The term Hikma in the verses do not relate to sources other than the Quran. The Hikma (Wisdom) is referred to the Quran itself. See how the Arabic "wa" is used in another verse which explains the verses being questioned about the Book and the Wisdom. You will realize that this is normal and the Arabs are fimiliar with such writing.

Aleikum salam

waidhâ Tallaqtumu al-nisâ'a fabalagna ajalahunna faamsikûhunna bima`rûfin aw sarriHûhunna bima`rûfin walâ tumsikûhunna Dirâran lita`tadû waman yaf`al dhâlika faqad Zalama nafsahu walâ tattakhidhû 'âyâti al-lahi huzuwan waadhkurû ni`mata al-lahi `alaykum wa anzala `alaykum mina al-kitâbi waal-Hikmati ya`iZukum bihi waattaqû al-laha waa`lamû anna al-laha bikulli shay'in `alîmun

This is the 2/231 transcripted. Notice I have highlightened the HI of the word bihi. This HI refers to MA that I have also highlightened. Thus, it is not refers to Hekmah, it is not referring to Wisdom.

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #5 on: May 06, 2016, 12:27:50 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

The claim that the word Hikam refers to a secondary revelation is (with respect) ridicules and finds absolutely no support from the Quran. There is absolutely no mention of two types of revelations anywhere in the Qur’an

Please consider reading the following piece which goes into detail regarding this:
http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/index.php?showtopic=30

Here's a relevant excerpt from the link I shared with you:

Quote
We understand that the revelations of Allah have many attributes. Allah has not just assigned "names" for His revelations - rather the "names" mentioned are actually attributes that signify different characteristics of His revelations. The word "Al-Qur'an" itself is not a name but an attribute. It means 'The Recital", or "The-Recitation", specifying the attribute of recitation of Allah's revelations. There are many attributes of Allah's revelations. For example, "Al-Zikr", meaning "The-Reminder" as Allah's revelations are supposed to REMIND us; "Al-Huda", meaning "The-Guidance" as the revelations are supposed to GUIDE us; "Al-Kitaab", meaning the "The-Book" or "Written Record" as Allah's revelations are in the form of a Book, a written record; "Al-Furqaan", meaning 'The Criterion". Similarly, "Al-Hikmah" is also an attribute of Allah's revelations as it is supposed to teach us WISDOM behind the written words in 'Al-Kitaab".

The following verses clearly explain to us that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an:

Alif Laam Ra; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom [Kitaab al-Hakeem]” [Quran 10:1]

Alif Lam Mim; these are the Verses of the Book of Wisdom” [Quran 31:1-2]

Ta Sin. By the Qur'an full of Wisdom” [Quran 36:1-2]

We have made it a Qur'an in Arabic, so that you may use your Aqal. And verily it is in the Mother of The Book, in Our Presence, High, Full of Wisdom” [Quran 43:3-4]

"These are of the Wisdom [al-Hikmah], which your Lord has revealed to you. Take not, with Allah, another object of Worship, lest you should be thrown into hell, blameworthy and rejected [Quran 17:39]

The above verses make it evident that Wisdom is an attribute of the Qur'an. Thus when the Qur'an is revealed to the Prophet, its Hikmah is also revealed to him by default.

The “wisdom” is found in the teachings of the Qur’an. Surah Isra verse 39 (17:39) says: “This is part of the wisdom that your Lord reveals to you. The word ‘wisdom’ (in this verse) refers to some thirteen ethical teachings enumerated in verses 22 to 38 (of Surat Al-Isrā ).

But if, as you seem to believe, the prophet (pbuh) was given two seperat revelation, then I would like to post a question to you:

1] Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to suggest that the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]


If, as you suggest, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?

Consider also the following verse:

Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him” [Quran 06:19]

Again, if we are to believe that the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?

I conclusion, please bear in mind that the ONLY revelation the prophet received was the Quran alone, as attested to by the following Quranic verses: See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7;
and the only revelation he was instructed to uphold and follow was the Quran alone. See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50;
and the only revelation he was responsible for admonishing and warning the people with was the Quran alone. See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70;
and the only revelation he was responsible for judging with it was the Quran alone.  See: 5:48-49; 4:105

Hence the burden is on you to show/proof that the word hikma (which, as said above, is only one of many attributed/names of the Quran) is a reference to a secondary revelation and not another attribute of the Quran.

Offline ZKAB90

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #6 on: May 09, 2016, 11:08:16 PM »
Does the Quran wish us to follow the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)? Yes.

This should be enough evidence. “(O Muhammad, to mankind): if ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, merciful.” Ahl-Imran 3, Verse 31

There are nineteen times that obedience of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is stated in the Quran by Allah Subhanu wa ta’ala

source: http://sectarianrefutations.blogspot.be/2007/02/refutation-of-group-tolu-e-islam.html

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

In the page you will able to read the 19 Quranic citations that, in my opinion, reinforce the fact that we must follow, if not all the Ahadith, surely some of them.

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #7 on: May 10, 2016, 12:14:37 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

You said:

Quote
Does the Quran wish us to follow the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him)? Yes.
This should be enough evidence. “(O Muhammad, to mankind): if ye love Allah, follow me; Allah will love you and forgive you your sins. Allah is Forgiving, merciful.” Ahl-Imran 3, Verse 31

First off, on what conceivable grounds can the expression 'if ye love Allah, follow me' be used to sanction extraneous sources which were not arguably 'CANONISED' until CENTURIES after the death of the Prophet?

Furthermore, allow me to ask you:
What did the prophet follow?
What (scripture) did Muhammad use to dictate his life?
What scripture did Muhammad base his life decisions on?
Surely prophet Muhammad did not, on his accord, make up everything he was preaching and every act/ritual (such as the salat, zakat, hajj, fasting, upholding of justice, etc) which he performed (which we are instructed to emulate), correct? Those acts must have come from somewhere, correct? But what (scripture) could have inspired many of Muhammad's acts (which is now incumbent on us Muslims to perform)?

Moreover, how and from where did the prophet learn how to perform the Salat, how to make Hajj, how to observe the month of Ramadan, etc? The logical answer would be: from the Quran; the prophet learned how to perform those rituals solely from the Quran. Continuously are we told (in the Quran) that the only revelation (or scripture) which Muhammad received was the revelation of the Quran (See: 7:203; 6:19; 5:48; 42:7) and it was that revelation (Quran) alone which he was responsible for upholding and following (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50), responsible for admonishing and warning the people with (See: 6:19; 27:91-92; 5:45; 42:7; 38:65-70), and responsible for judging with it (See: 5:48-49; 4:105).

Thus, if we, as Muslims, are to follow the example of the prophet (Quran 33:21) then let us do so by following the same and only scripture which was revealed to the prophet (See: 7:203; 6:155; 10:15; 33:2;46:9; 6:106; 6:50) and which he was commanded to only follow (See: Quran 6:155), and let us base all of our religious assertions and/or theological standpoints and rituals solely from the Quran.

Hence, should the Quran not suffice as the only sources necessary for our guidance?

You've also said:

Quote
There are nineteen times that obedience of the Prophet (peace and blessings be upon him) is stated in the Quran by Allah Subhanu wa ta’ala

With respect to the many verses instruct us (Muslims) to obey the messenger, please understand that a messenger is simply someone who carries a message; and the message the prophet carried was none other than the Quran (see: 7:203-204; 6:19; 5:48 42:7; 6:29;). Therefore, by obeying the messenger we are obey the Quran and Allah.

Please understand that the first directive of the command 'obey the messenger' was clearly to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on.

Therefore, 'Obey the Messenger' meant obedience to his authority (in his capacity as a messenger/prophet). This understanding also finds support in the following verse where it is clear that it was not only the Prophet that needed to be obeyed, but also those in authority.:

"O ye who believe! Obey God, and obey the Messenger, and those charged with authority among you. Then if you disagree in anything among yourselves, refer it to God and His Messenger, if ye do believe in God and the Last Day: That is best, and most suitable for final determination" [Quran 4:59]

The Quran repeatedly announces obedience to the messenger; albeit they are the same person, the Quran never conveys the instruction to obey 'Muhammad' in his capacity as a man/husband/father and in his personal preferences and choices; only in his capacity as a messenger/prophet is to be obeyed. The significance of this specific address by the title 'messenger' is often not appreciated. The 'message' remained connected to the 'messenger' and it was in this capacity of the 'messenger' that Muhammad (pbuh) needed to be obeyed. In fact, a stark warning was given to Prophet Muhammad if he so much as introduced any personal preferences in the matter of God's ordained 'deen', as the following verse shows:

And if the messenger were to invent any sayings in Our name, We should certainly seize him by his right hand, And We should certainly then cut off the artery of his heart: Nor could any of you withhold him (from Our wrath). But verily this is a Message for the God-fearing”[Quran 69:44-48]

Therefore, the inclusion of the phrase "obey the Messenger" after "Obey Allah" is significant in the following ways:

Who among the companions of the Prophet ever heard any of God's revelations directly from God? No one! Consequently, they cannot obey God except through Muhammad's delivery of the Quran. The Quran came out of Muhammad's mouth. This makes it necessary for God to command people to obey the messenger since he is the one who delivers to them God's message.
Moreover, the messenger did not just deliver the Quran and vanish! The prophet spent all his years from the time he received the first revelation till his death inviting all people to believe in the Quran and to follow it. Hence it is necessary for God to command all humans to obey the messenger who is inviting them to accept the message (Quran).

For more info, please consider visiting the following sites:
http://quransmessage.com/articles/obey%20allah%20and%20the%20messenger%20FM3.htm
http://www.detailedquran.com/quran_data/Obey%20Allah%20and%20obey%20the%20messenger.htm

Please know that prophet Muhammad is no longer alive and with us, so it is not possible for us to obey someone who is now dead. Thus, the first directive of the command obey the messenger was to the contemporaries of the Prophet who were the direct addressees. They were being instructed to trust in the Prophet’s authority in the message he was delivering and acting on. Sense the prophet is no longer with us, the only way in which we can obey him is by obeying and upholding the only message he delivered (the Quran).

Offline adam

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 48
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #8 on: May 11, 2016, 10:29:12 AM »
Salam All,

Just wondering,

Is not "hadith" already used in the Quran? and if so, why does hikma mean the same and not sound similar to the root of hadith? i thought the language is based on this triad of letters.

 :)

Offline Abdurrahman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #9 on: May 11, 2016, 03:37:46 PM »
Essalamü Aleyküm from İstanbul,
My name is Abdurrahim,
"Hikma " "Hikmet"

My opinion:

User Guide, Find the unknown with the known..

my humble view
 

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #10 on: May 11, 2016, 05:57:50 PM »
Walaikum SalamAbdurrahman,

Welcome to the forum. And thank you for sharing your humble opinion.

Offline Abdurrahman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #11 on: May 11, 2016, 06:36:25 PM »
"İnsh'Allah we hold fast, all together the Rope of Allah... Quran 3:103

Offline Abdurrahman

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 20
    • View Profile
Treacherous companions/Sahabis?!
« Reply #12 on: May 11, 2016, 08:35:52 PM »
4:105] We have sent down to you the scripture, truthfully, in order to judge among the people in accordance with what GOD has shown you. You shall not side with the betrayers.

[4:106] You shall implore GOD for forgiveness. GOD is Forgiver, Most Merciful.

[4:107] Do not argue on behalf of those who have wronged their own souls; GOD does not love any betrayer, guilty.

[4:108] They hide from the people, and do not care to hide from GOD, though He is with them as they harbor ideas He dislikes. GOD is fully aware of everything they do.

[4:109] Here you are arguing on their behalf in this world; who is going to argue with GOD on their behalf on the Day of Resurrection? Who is going to be their advocate?

[4:110] Anyone who commits evil, or wrongs his soul, then implores GOD for forgiveness, will find GOD Forgiving, Most Merciful.

[4:111] Anyone who earns a sin, earns it to the detriment of his own soul. GOD is Omniscient, Most Wise.

[4:112] Anyone who earns a sin, then accuses an innocent person thereof, has committed a blasphemy and a gross offense.

[4:113] If it were not for GOD's grace towards you, and His mercy, some of them would have misled you. They only mislead themselves, and they can never harm you in the least. GOD has sent down to you the scripture and wisdom, and He has taught you what you never knew. Indeed, GOD's blessings upon you have been great.

[4:114] There is nothing good about their private conferences, except for those who advocate charity, or righteous works, or making peace among the people. Anyone who does this, in response to GOD's teachings, we will grant him a great recompense.

[4:115] As for him who opposes the messenger, after the guidance has been pointed out to him, and follows other than the believers' way, we will direct him in the direction he has chosen, and commit him to Hell; what a miserable destiny!

Offline ZKAB90

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 78
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #13 on: May 14, 2016, 12:35:09 AM »
Salam Hassan,

I find good rebuttal to you. Read carefully please, there are 3 proofs:


PROOF N°1

Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in his “The Qur’aniyūn of the twentieth century”, [http://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century] in page 43 says:

“The Qur’aniyūn reject the orthodox Islamic position which equates the word ‘Hikmah’ in some of the Qur’anic verses to mean ‘sunna’ I will demonstrate that the Hikmah mentioned in the Qur’an does, in a number of verses, refer to the sunna. A number of verses prove this:”

The he gives these verses: 4:113, 2:231, 2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 33:34, 62:2

In all these verses there is the conjuction “wa” [“and”], so he conclude that

“Shafi’I explain that the letter ‘wa’ (meaning ‘and’) between Book and Hikmah in the verses above is:

<<a letter of conjunction in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant>>

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PROOF N°2

Again, Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in the cited work, in page 54, the section “Methods used by the Companions to preserve the Sunna” gives some methods:

i) Memorisation, because “The Arabs were renowned for their powerful memories. It has been scientifically proven that the constant use of a certain human faculty makes it more responsive. The early Arabs paid great attention to their memories and developed this to its highest point”

ii) Recollection of hadith

iii) Practice, because “The Companions were keen to implement everything they had learnt. Their daily routines such as worship, dress, food, personal hygiene, family relations, business, travel and so on, were based upon the sunna. Continual practice of the sunna ensured its preservation”

iv) Asking questions to one another

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

PROOF N°3


Millions of people, in the last 14 centuries, have prayed and asked to Allah for their guidance. Now, a little school of thought, the Qur’aniyūn, make takfir over millions and millions of people. Amazing...

Offline Hassan A

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 195
  • The truth has prevailed and falsehood has vanished
    • View Profile
Re: HIKMA means indeed HADITHS and not WISDOM
« Reply #14 on: May 14, 2016, 01:06:41 AM »
Salaam ZKAB90,

You said:

Quote
Abū Ruquyah Farasat Latif, in his “The Qur’aniyūn of the twentieth century”, [http://www.academia.edu/3452285/The_Quraniy%C5%ABn_Of_The_Twentieth_Century] in page 43 says:

“The Qur’aniyūn reject the orthodox Islamic position which equates the word ‘Hikmah’ in some of the Qur’anic verses to mean ‘sunna’ I will demonstrate that the Hikmah mentioned in the Qur’an does, in a number of verses, refer to the sunna. A number of verses prove this:”

The he gives these verses: 4:113, 2:231, 2:129, 2:151, 3:164, 33:34, 62:2

In all these verses there is the conjuction “wa” [“and”], so he conclude that

“Shafi’I explain that the letter ‘wa’ (meaning ‘and’) between Book and Hikmah in the verses above is:

<<a letter of conjunction in Arabic which requires that the two parts it joins must be different otherwise the sentence will be redundant>>


With respect, it's clear that you have failed to read the link I shared with you in a previous reply; because that link addressed this exact argument. From the link (and I shall share it again:

Quote
When the above arguments are presented to the Traditionalists, some of them get very emotional and shout that "there is no 'WAU ATFA' in the rest of the 'Hikmah' usage and therefore that 'Hikm' is different from the one used in 3:164". They fail to see the logical implications of this stubborn and emotional argument. We will analyse some other Verses of the Qur'an in the light of this argument.

"And if they reject you, so did their predecessors to whom came their messengers with clarity AND [Wal] Scripture AND [Wal] the Book of clarity” - (Ch.35: Ver.25)

Now in this Ayah the same "wau atfa" is used for the revelation brought by the past messengers. According to the logic posed by the Traditionalists, the above Ayah would mean that the past Messengers came with THREE DISTINCT revelations - "Clarity", "Scripture", and "The Book of Clarity". According to their logic, we should not consider all three of the above to be different attributes of Allah's revelations. However, we MUST consider them THREE distinct revelations. This creates a problem - If the "Scripture", and the "Book of Clarity' are DISTINCT, where is the SCRIPTURE of those people (for even if they show us their BOOKS - written records, we cannot accept that as scripture as it MUST be DISTINCT from the BOOK).

Let us look at a few more "Wau Atfa" Ayat. In the following Ayah, Allah is talking to Jesus. He says:

“I taught you the Book [wal]AND THE [hikmah] Wisdom [wal] AND The-Law [Torah] AND The-Gospel [Injeel]” - (Ch.5: Ver.110)

So according to the logic used by the Traditionalists, Allah taught Jesus FOUR DISTINCT revelations named as "The Book", "The Wisdom", "The Torah", and "The Injeel". This would mean that The Book is DISTINCT from Torah and Injeel. Thus according to the Traditionalist’s interpretation, during that time, there were four revelations making the rounds!

We may look again at a few more Ayat:

"Even as We have sent among you a Messenger from among you who recites to you Our Ayat and purifies you and teaches you the Book AND [wal] the wisdom AND [wal] teaches you that which you did not know." (Ch.2: Ver.151)

Now, we see another "wau Atfa". Here the Messenger teaches us "The-Book" AND "The-Hikmah", AND teaches us "that which we did not know". Thus according to the logic of the Traditionalists the presence of the "wau atfa" would mean that he is teaching us THREE DISTINCT things. Now, the Traditionalists have established that "Al-Kitaab" is the Qur'an, and "Al-Hikmah" is the "Hadith and Sunna". Now in addition to this we would like to know what is this NEW KNOWLEDGE that the Messenger is teaching…mind you because of the "wau atfa" the "new knowledge" MUST be DISTINCT from "Al-Kitaab", and "Al-Hikmah". Where this NEW KNOWLEDGE would be found? It cannot be in the Qur'an, or even in the Hadith.

We are sure that anyone with a grain of reason in his mind can see the logical error committed by the Traditionalists.

#1 http://z8.invisionfree.com/Ahl_Al_Quran/index.php?showtopic=30


As for PROOF N°2, I subscribe to the believe that the supposed Sunnah of the propeth finds absolutely no explicit support from the Quran, and if you believe otherwise, then the burden is on you to support that standpoint solely from the Quran. Therefore, I couldn't really care about the supposed method used to safeguard the "Sunnah of the prophet", which itself finds no support from the Quran.

Furthermore, are you aware of the fact that there is no single agreed upon definition of Sunnah? Some individuals/sects say that whatever the Prophet (PBUH) said or did in private, or in public, is his Sunnah. Others say that whatever is in the books of hadith comprise the Sunnah. Still others say whatever the Prophet (PBUH) did in his capacity as a man/father/husband is not Sunnah; only the things which he did in his capacity as prophet/messenger comprise the Sunnah. It is, therefore,  safe to conclude that there are as many variations in the definition of Sunnah as there are sects and sub-sects in Islam. Each sect thinks its definition is the right one.

As for PROOF N°3, how is that relevant to me and/or to this issue at hand in this post? I have never asserted that the current method of prayer perfromed by the majority of Muslims or their method of seeking guidance from Allah is wrong; nor I'm I a Qur’aniyūn .

Now kindly answer the two question I have posted to your earlier, which were:


1] Why would Allah send down a dual-revelation? Are we to suggest that the Quran in-itself is incomplete or ambiguous and therefore needs the support of a secondary source? To give you a better understanding of what I mean, consider the two following verse in which Allah instructs us to follow solely the Quran.:

"And this is a Book which We have revealed as a blessing: SO FOLLOW IT (Arabic: fa-ittabi'uhu) and fear (God) / be righteous so that you may receive mercy" [Quran 06:155]


If, as you suggest, Allah had made it incumbent upon us to uphold and follow a second source then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in this verse, would it not?

Consider also the following verse:

“Say: "What thing is most weighty in evidence?" Say: "God is witness between me and you; THIS QURAN HAS BEEN REVEALED TO ME BY INSPIRATION that I may warn you and all whom it reaches. Can you possibly bear witness that besides God there is another God?" Say: "Nay! I cannot bear witness!" Say: "But in truth He is the one God, and I truly am innocent of (your blasphemy of) joining others with Him” [Quran 06:19]

Again, if we are to believe that the prophet received a secondary revelation which was/is incumbent upon us to uphold and follow then surely it would be appropriate for Allah to have given mention to it in that verse, would it not?