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Offline Student

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #15 on: September 01, 2016, 01:07:14 PM »
Subhan Allah! :D - after Zack's 1st response to my inquiry the thread got derailed and suddenly you brought the engine back on track  ;D for that Jazak Allah Khair brother Wakas, I'm completely overwhelmed with the list (you're so right sister Amira) and it will inshallah benefit me in many ways - thank you so very much!

Brother Zack your last response with Quran vs Previous scriptures was indeed awesome and you may add to the list Sir Joseph's post on his FB with the title "The TWO GUIDES - The Quran and the Bible " is perfect fit: https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/300599863410481

Thank you all!
Thanks,
~ Student

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2016, 07:02:43 AM »
He refers to "Geographia by Claudius Ptolemaeus" as a pre-Muhammad description of Arabia, and the towns in Arabia,  however there're no manuscripts of "Geographia" from a time pre-Muhammad..  :o
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Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #17 on: September 03, 2016, 05:38:39 PM »
Dear All,

A very good thread Masha’Allah.

Please kindly allow me to share a general view which some may find of interest.

Given my own humble, yet ardent studies in this area and my work with the Quran over numerous years and a great portion of my life, I do not subscribe to the wholesale acceptance of two thoughts:

  • Any Muslim scholarly enterprise that argues that the Quran cannot be understood without understanding its context which is guaranteed / underpinned by a later corpus canonised centuries after the death of the prophet by the hands of historians far removed from source. In other words, the Quran cannot be understood without Islamic secondary sources. (Main traditionalist view)
  • The modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

Both, in my humble view, are problematic assertions and not supported by the Quran itself.

This presents us with a ‘false dilemma – false dichotomy’ which is a well-known fallacy and in my view, the Achilles heel of both approaches in understanding the Quran better.

There is another option which I wholeheartedly subscribe to.

The Quran provides its own context for the guidance it wants to impart.

THE QURAN PROVIDES ITS OWN EXPLANATION (TAFSIR)
 
025:033
"And no example do they bring to you but We bring you the truth and the best explanation (of it) (Arabic: Hasana Tafsir)"

It is not important from a Quran's perspective where a surah was revealed or in what order. It is a reading. Those narratives which are neither elaborated or have ‘seeming’ gaps should be interpreted with the intentional dearth of detailed information in which the narratives have been provided. What the Quran doesn’t elaborate on, is superfluous to immediate need with regards Divine guidance and intentional [1] God does not run out of words (31:27).

Lack of 'perceived' details of an event does not require one to source other material with a view to arbitrarily ‘fill them in’. Many verses have subtle nuances and are complete in that they make clear the general purport of the message and wisdom they intend to impart. Intricate details are not of its concern.

"Enter not, therefore, into controversies concerning them, except on a matter that is clear, nor consult any of them about (the affair of) the Sleepers" (18:22)

The wisdom / guidance / message from the verse above is clear. Do not elicit finer details. Stay with the general message, general purport of the guidance.

From a Quran's perspective, it cannot call itself the following, if it requires external sources of historical context to provide its meaning.

  • A Clear Guidance (Huda)
  • Clear Proof (Burhan)
  • Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
  • Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
  • The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
  • Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
  • Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)

In summary therefore, I remain acutely aware / exercise extreme caution with both assertions / approaches (traditionalist or orientalist) which I find equally problematic and unwarranted.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2016, 02:27:37 AM »
Asalamu Alykum

Thanks brother Joseph for your inputs and thoughts. Very helpful Jazak Allah. That is what I was trying to say that the order of the revelations revealed was something the Quran does not get into, and how prophet Muhammad knew when to recited them was possibly another inspiration that was outside the Quranic inspiration. Something God did not deem it necessary to detail and was not part of mankind's guidance in a whole.


Thank you also brother Wakas for the article you shared by Robinson. There was in my opinion a lot of finer details and assumptions added to the Quranic text. Nevertheless the author seems sincere and admits that by using the Quran only, it is very unlikely that the revelation order can be extracted. Also he was very selective in what he choose from the biographies and admits he could not rely on its whole because some things just seemed very questionable. He seems that he does not accept the biographies as complete truth and may contain invented tales, please see the ending of chapter 2 relating to the satanic verses.


"Yet if we leave the Islamic tradition to one side, and approach the Qur'an without any presuppositions, the picture which emerges is extremely sketchy..."

"If we wish to fill in this sketch and sharpen its focus, our only option is to draw on the early biographies.... A cautious attempt was therefore made to use them in order to make more sense of the toponyms mentioned in the Qur'an and to construct a chronological framework in which to view the Qur'anic revelations."

"In attempting to construct a plausible chronological framework for the revelations, I inevitably had to be selective."

"It is possible, however, that like the story of Muhammad splitting the moon in two, it is-merely an exegetical fable invented to explain an otherwise puzzling text."[1]



Peace :)

[1] http://islam-and-muslims.com/DISCOVERING-QURAN-Robinson.PDF

Offline good logic

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2016, 08:46:06 AM »
Peace All.

For me GOD has been overseeing that Qoran is collected it in the order we have it:

75:16
Do not move your tongue to hasten it.
لا تُحَرِّك بِهِ لِسانَكَ لِتَعجَلَ بِهِ
75:17
It is we who will collect it into Qoran.
إِنَّ عَلَينا جَمعَهُ وَقُرءانَهُ
75:18
Once we recite it, you shall follow such a Qoran.
فَإِذا قَرَأنٰهُ فَاتَّبِع قُرءانَهُ
75:19
Then it is we who will explain it.
ثُمَّ إِنَّ عَلَينا بَيانَهُ
GOD bless.
Peace.

Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Zack

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2016, 01:10:50 PM »

    • The modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

    From a Quran's perspective, it cannot call itself the following, if it requires external sources of historical context to provide its meaning.

    • A Clear Guidance (Huda)
    • Clear Proof (Burhan)
    • Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
    • Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
    • The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
    • Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
    • Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)


    Dear Friends,

    I have very much appreciated the articles by Br. Joseph, and this Forum. However this is one of the few areas where I personally feel I would have a somewhat different view concerning the post for 2 reasons:

    I do not subscribe to the modern, somewhat orientalist view, that due to the above, the Quran's original / intended meaning has been lost/ challenging to filter, because of a loss of historical context or dubious secondary sources.

    This has been discussed quite a bit in the following link:

    http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1896.msg9327#msg9327

    1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.
    2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.

    In regards to the term in Br. Josephs post “orientalist” view, to be honest I don’t know what this means these days. A growing number of so-called orientalists view the Qur’an as we have it today basically the same as the original, while others (though decreasing in number) may say that Muhammad never existed. I am not sure if the term has any relevance anymore.

    Wasalam

    Zack



    Offline good logic

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #21 on: September 04, 2016, 08:20:34 PM »
    Peace Zack.

    Thank you for all your contributions here.

    I would like to ask a couple of questions regarding this, quote:

    1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.
    2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.


    1-Who decides on what to follow as "today s instructions" from Qoran ?
    Since everyone is going to "take" or "leave" from Qoran according to their "context"!
    I thought all" This Qoran guides ( guided, guides today, will guide tomorrow) all generations that followed( will follow) Qoran.

    2-What does " fully detailed " mean?
    If GOD says " It is "We" who will explain it",should we doubt that statement?

    Thank you in advance.
    GOD bless you.
    Peace.
    Total loyalty to GOD
    In GOD i TRUST.
    https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

    Offline Joseph Islam

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #22 on: September 04, 2016, 11:37:01 PM »
    Dear Zack,

    As-salamu alaykum

    Thank you once again for your contributions and expertise in the knowledge you have been granted. Please do kindly keep contributing and assisting others.

    I just wanted to elaborate a little more on the respected thoughts you have shared in red italics, if I respectfully may.

    1)   Basically with any scripture, having an understanding of context enhances our understanding of the original intent of the text. For example, if someone picked up the Qur’an as a text, even totally unbiased, with zero understanding of the context, I doubt that person would come to the conclusions on this forum. We create context external to the text, without realising it. Instead of any random place, we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc. The more context, the more clarity in understanding.

    You say: "we place the Prophets in a particular place and era. We place the setting in Arabia in the 7th century. We place the War Verses of the Qur’an in a context etc. etc".

    Yet the Quran provides as much context as it needs to. We know the Prophet was called Muhammad, what approximate era his ministry was active, that he was an Arab, spoke Arabic and much else. What exact date or century is not deemed relevant, yet whatever can be gleaned from the Quran is relevant. You respectfully appear to expect details of war, but there is sufficient guidance from what is being shared to derive an underlying message and an inner consistency that presents the reader with necessary wisdom. Again, there is an expectation for detail that many appear to have that the Quran seemingly deems unnecessary. It is detailed to the point what is necessary for religious guidance.

    However, please kindly note that my statement "The Quran provides its own context for the guidance it wants to impart." is not as restrictive as I understand that you may be being led to believe.

    My humble writings are prolific in this area.

    Please kindly note that where the Quran provides more detailed context and where it is silent, its intention is not for the reader to elicit finer details, unless of course the Quran provides an interpretative opening.

    For example, when it interacts with those of the previous scriptures, it expects an understanding of Biblical scriptures. It even refers the Arabian prophet Muhammad to interact with those of the previous scriptures to verify certain details "...ask of those who possess the Message" (16:43; 21:7-8). It speaks of entities as if it expects the audience to be familiar with them. For example, Mikaeel is mentioned only once in the entire Quran (2:98 - hapax legomenon) and that too extremely briefly.

    There are further incidents that are so brief that some expectation exists that certain portions of the audience will be familiar with the narrative. The incident with Prophet Job is another example (38:41-38:44) and there are many other examples:

    “And has there come to you the ‘news’ (naba-u) of the litigants? How they climbed over the wall into the (royal) chamber?” (38:21)

    “Has there come to you the ‘hadith’ (narration) of Moses?” 20.9

    There is also an expectation for Arabs (not necessarily of the previous scriptures) to be familiar with certain references which the Quran expounds to the point that it deems necessary for (a) The immediate audience and (b) Proffering general guidance for mankind.

    “Has there come to you the story of the hosts, of Pharaoh and (the tribe of) Thamud?" (85:17-18)

    However, the Quran ratifies the previous scriptures and thus implicitly, interaction with it to extract as much a context / possible background as one deems necessary and this approach is arguably sanctioned. It even refers to it as a 'guide' (28:49). Thus the Quran can remain perfectly ‘detailed / complete’ because it is in its narratives it is sanctioning certain scriptures / sources for guidance, if a context is to be studied further.

    However, the Quran does not and cannot sanction a plethora of later corpora or the writings of fallible historians penning thoughts centuries after the revelation of the Quran. This is not within the Quran’s ‘detail’ or ‘remit’.

    Thus in my view, the Quran encourages a 'Quran-centric' view which allows interaction with other sources but whilst only sanctioning 'religious authority' for itself for the purposes of religious guidance for the believers.

    This in my humble view is a crucial / critical point, oft overlooked.


    2)   The Qur’an as a clear guidance, a proof etc. This too was revealed where its listeners had 100% context. Imagine, after they heard, and then they could ask to the Messenger, “what does that mean?” The text could be understood in the context of real life situations.

    And they did ask. Please kindly be in no doubt about this.

    Yet, the Quran curtailed unnecessary questions. Please kindly note verses dealing with questions the audience enquired about the Spirit (17:85) or the Last Hour and see how God curtailed providing further details (79:42-79:43) to what had already been given (7:187). The primary audience didn't always have 100% context, yet knowledge was still withheld. Only what was necessary was shared.

    However, the Quran also gave the explicit guidance not to delve in matters that were unclear inferring caution against eliciting finer details (18:22). Please also kindly note the guidance given to the primary audience not to ask unnecessary questions / elicit finer details in verse (5:101). The analogy with those who asked seemingly irrelevant questions before could be a reference to the people of Prophet Moses (5:102) and the incident with sacrificing a cow (2:67-71) where a seemingly straightforward general religious instruction became overtly complex because of the audience incessantly eliciting finer details.

    Yet, in so many cases, this is exactly what even modern interpreters (and traditionalists) seem to expect and I fear this is the very type of expectation which gave rise to the accretion of the Ahadith corpus in the first place i.e. the need to constantly want to elicit finer details or fill in the gaps. 

    Regards,
    Joseph


    REFERENCES:

    [1] Is Hearsay Unquranic?
    https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/363674833769650
    [2] DO NOT COMPLICATE RELIGION - WISDOM FROM SURAH BAQARAH
    http://quransmessage.com/articles/wisdom%20-%20baqarah%20FM3.htm
    [3] UNKNOWN TOWNS AND NAMES - WHY FILL IN THE GAPS?
    http://quransmessage.com/articles/unknown%20towns%20and%20names%20FM3.htm
    'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
    George Orwell

    Offline Student

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #23 on: September 05, 2016, 03:01:57 AM »
    Salaam Dear Joseph Sir,

    I'm so very glad seeing your invaluable wisdom whenever you share  :D - Jazak Allahu Khairan. If you notice I started this post with skepticism on revelation order and I completely concur with you on all 7 points about the Quran and 2 thoughts about unwarranted restriction placed on its interpretation.

    A ray of hope Alhumdulillah when I see you become active now and then and address few discussions, may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922?
    Thanks,
    ~ Student

    Offline QM Moderators Team

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #24 on: September 05, 2016, 04:25:03 AM »

    ... may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922?

    Student,

    Although you are asking very politely our response is the same with everyone.  Please can we also ask you kindly not to badger or request others for responses. This is against forum policy. 
    We note brother Joseph has responded to you in the past, but you simply cannot expect responses when you desire particularly for very long questions as in your first link.  Please let others respond if they feel they want or need to.

    Thanks

    Offline Zack

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #25 on: September 05, 2016, 10:13:45 AM »

    Thus in my view, the Quran encourages a 'Quran-centric' view which allows interaction with other sources but whilst only sanctioning 'religious authority' for itself for the purposes of religious guidance for the believers.

    Regards,
    Joseph


    Dear Br. Joseph (and Good Logic)

    Thank you for your response. Based on your summarising sentence above, I believe I would have a somewhat similar view to yourself in that respect, however would add:

    - So to not misunderstand, the primary text to understand the cultural and historical context to which the Quran speaks is the Quran itself. For example... A study by G R Hawting (who I don't agree with in other areas) observes the Muslim tradition of "Jahiliyah," which basically doesn't exist outside of later tradition, presents Mecca as polytheistic and idolatrous religion, immorality, the killing of female children, and the shedding of blood. This seeks to intensify a dramatic change in practices at the time of Muhammad. However Qur'anic studies, complimented by external sources, would seem to present this as not correct. The context of Arabia is Compromised Monotheism / Shirk... This is just an example, however it will probably result in subtle changes in understanding as the text is read.

    - The other area that this relates to is..... My view is The same principles of Hermeneutics that I apply for the Bible, I apply to the Qur'an. That is, many times the New Testament speaks to a specific situation. For example, in the "Ummah" in the New Testament, the cultural practices may have caused women to rowdy in spiritual meetings. So instruction was given to a specific location, "Women be silent in gatherings." A literalist would take that statement and believe that universally women are to be silent. Someone applying Hermeneutics would go back and look at the original context, observe any universal principles, and probably see that with a changing context, the application is different.

    The same Hermeneutic principles I believe apply to interpreting the Qur'an for the Qur'an centric community. Good Logic, your comment on "How do we know what to take and leave," yes... it would be in some ways it would be a whole lot easier if we all had a single culture and context and a simple check list to follow. But God has not created us like that.... he created us in diversity, not all as Arabs, and not all at the time of Muhammad. We need to read the text with that in mind.

    I have come back to this point a couple of times, but hopefully it makes sense.

    Wasalam

    Zack


    Offline Student

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #26 on: September 06, 2016, 01:16:36 AM »

    ... may I humbly bring your kind attention in your next available time slot on this one:Birth control http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2008.msg10436#msg10436 and also this:Hajj months http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1888.msg9922#msg9922?

    Student,

    Although you are asking very politely our response is the same with everyone.  Please can we also ask you kindly not to badger or request others for responses. This is against forum policy. 
    We note brother Joseph has responded to you in the past, but you simply cannot expect responses when you desire particularly for very long questions as in your first link.  Please let others respond if they feel they want or need to.

    Thanks

    I apologize for unintended hurt but by God I never meant it that way, my request is genuine and knowing and respecting fully well Sir Joseph's priorities and commitments my query may have very well escaped Sir Joseph's attention I humbly brought it up here in this thread with a redirection as you can see in that thread itself Sir Joseph himself asked me to list the questions in numbering bullet form so he can address each, time permitting. I know and I'm fully aware I can't expect answers to each and every query by Sir Joseph but whenever I do I feel lucky and my elation knows no bound. I keep my hopes alive  :) and pray that Allah swt bless Sir Joseph with long and healthy life so he can address all of us on subject not addressed by him at least in some length.

    I'm sorry if somewhere/anywhere I implied or mention explicitly only Sir Joseph to respond and not others for I didn't mean that but full satisfaction comes to me when something comes from Sir Joseph directly simply because in his own words:
    Quote
    Given my own humble, yet ardent studies in this area and my work with the Quran over numerous years and a great portion of my life
    I hope and trust you (and all respected members) don't disagree with my feeling.

    Thanks and with unconditional apology (to you and all respected members in case anyone got hurt with my word unintentionally) once again,
    Student
    Thanks,
    ~ Student

    Offline selim

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    Re: Quran Revelation Order
    « Reply #27 on: January 12, 2017, 12:31:08 AM »
    Does someone know what the earliest known manuscript written in "revelation order" is? I searched it but found nothing specific other than a random museum piece from 17th century.