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Offline Student

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Quran Revelation Order
« on: August 25, 2016, 05:51:04 AM »
Salaam,

I would like to know if Joseph sir mentioned or discussed Quran Revelation Order, anywhere as I failed in my search to find one and how accurate/reliable this chronology order information where some sites claim it with confident such as: http://www.askquran.com/quran.html

Many people I saw based their opinion from this order information so was just wondering about this aspect of the Quran.

Thanks,
Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Zack

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #1 on: August 29, 2016, 02:11:50 AM »
Salaam,

I would like to know if Joseph sir mentioned or discussed Quran Revelation Order, anywhere as I failed in my search to find one and how accurate/reliable this chronology order information where some sites claim it with confident such as: http://www.askquran.com/quran.html

Many people I saw based their opinion from this order information so was just wondering about this aspect of the Quran.

Thanks,
Student

Hello Student,

Your question brings up a very good point. Relating to Chronology of the Quran:

a) From what I have studied, the chronology of the Qur'an provided by Muslim tradition today has no basis except from the Traditional Stories written 150 years after the Qur'an, therefore is highly questionable.
b) The division of "Meccan Surah" and "Medina Surah" is a later addition, based on the background given to the verses.
c) The context for each verse, Asbab Al Nuzul, which leads to chronology, was something formalised 400 years after Muhammad.

The Quran text was based on the collection of the transcribed of oral recitations, and does not have any chronology, nor is there anyway to know the chronology.

This is one of the challenges of understanding of the original intended meaning of the Quran. Without a context, it is very dangerous to take a "literalist" approach to much of the instruction, as we do not know the historical context it was referring to.

Wasalam

Zack

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #2 on: August 29, 2016, 06:02:25 AM »
Asalamu Alykum Brothers and Sisters

I would like to also add a couple reminders.

First we DO note that the Quran was arranged and compiled in the lifetime of the Prophet[1]. Therefor as a believer I do believe that the Quran as we see it today is the same as it was in the time of prophet Muhammad by way of God's protection. We do note that with the imperfections of man there has been some minor publishing errors/differences. Also as humans progressed there seems to be additional vowel dialects added to vowels to help with pronunciation to those of different languages. Otherwise its been protected orally and written in its chronological order.

Secondly we have to keep in mind that Muhammad had been inspired in different ways and in different capacities to do certain roles.

For example Muhammad would have been inspired as a Prophet which that inspiration would possibly have aided him in his authority and duties over all his religious tasks that were prescribed by the Quran, possibly the arrangements, when to revealed or deliver the verses to his people and so on.

Muhammad would also possibly had been inspired at a messenger level. This may or may not been when to deliver the message, but also possibly in his duty as a leader, minister of affairs etc.

Muhammad would also possibly had been inspired at a personal level. Take for example the inspiration people like the mother of Moses received. Compare that with verse 66:3

66:3 And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."

Muhammad would also possibly have recognized the differences between all his inspirations.

At the end of course Allah knows best

Salam

[1]Quran Compilation
http://quransmessage.com/articles/the%20compilation%20of%20the%20quran%20FM3.htm

Offline Student

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #3 on: August 29, 2016, 07:53:38 AM »
Thanks Zack and Jazak Allah khair for your insightful clarification. I know it's next to impossible to apply "reverse engineering" to know this branch of Quranic science which as you noted developed much later.

Br. Hamzeh, my question was not on compilation order and I've Alhumdulillah no doubt in my mind about preservation of the Quranic text but nevertheless I appreciate your help too, thanks!  :)
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline maverick83pk

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #4 on: August 29, 2016, 08:29:03 AM »
What i understand from Inputs by Hamzeh, that the chronological order of revelation of quran's verse was different than the compiled order as we see in today's quran, which has been the same back to the time of Prophet Muhammad pbuh and that to arrange the quran in a particular order such as putting Surah Fatiha at start and surah An-Naas at the end, was further inspired to the prophet?! Where is this inspiratoin? in ahadees?

It means Prophet did recieve other kinds of revelations and that the hadithers are right! Does it mean we have to follow ahadees as well now? as they are also revealed to the Prophet pbuh?

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #5 on: August 29, 2016, 08:51:13 AM »
Asalamu Alykum Maverick83pk

First of all a simple answer is no, we dont have to follow the hadith.

Second of all brother how can you explain verse 66:3 below.

66:3 And [remember] when the Prophet confided to one of his wives a statement; and when she informed [another] of it and Allah showed it to him, he made known part of it and ignored a part. And when he informed her about it, she said, "Who told you this?" He said, "I was informed by the Knowing, the Acquainted."


Where is the inspiration in the Quran to the Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) that God had showed him what happened?

Also how did the prophet know WHICH ORDER to compile the Quran?

By reading the Quran one can arguably realize that it was not revealed in the order it was compiled.

Salam

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #6 on: August 29, 2016, 09:33:42 AM »
Salam Maverick83pk

Couple more points I would like to make so I don't confuse you or anyone else is that, Prophets are given duties and licenses to carry out their mission. This mission remains strictly for them. There is possibly an inspiration that is regulated just for the prophets duties. However this does not mean they have to share it or pass it on. The inspiration would be part of their job in their ministry as a prophet.

What is a key point is that the only thing they are responsible for is to deliver the message that was given to them. After that God will judge by the message that was left to the people.

42:48 If then they run away, We have not sent thee as a guard over them. Thy duty is but to convey (the Message). And truly, when We give man a taste of a Mercy from Ourselves, he doth exult thereat, but when some ill happens to him, on account of the deeds which his hands have sent forth, truly then is man ungrateful!

3:20part ...If they do, they are in right guidance, but if they turn back, Thy duty is to convey the Message; and in Allah's sight are (all) His servants.

24:54 Say: "Obey Allah, and obey the Messenger: but if ye turn away, he is only responsible for the duty placed on him and ye for that placed on you. If ye obey him, ye shall be on right guidance. The Messenger's duty is only to preach the clear (Message).


The prophet had other duties that the other people did not have. The prophet's duties was a weighty one. Possibly of memorization, revealing the verses at the proper times, managing affairs, leadership, government, compilation of the Quran, extra prayers,etc.


73:5 Indeed, We will cast upon you a heavy/weighty Word

Masha'Allah God has created prophet Muhammad capable of a weighty mission Subhan Allah. Shows how God can make a man do whatever He wills.

68:4 And indeed, you are of a great moral character.


A couple related articles by brother Joseph are below

Insha'Allah that helps

Salam

[1] WAS THE PROPHET OF GOD AKIN TO A POSTMAN WHO SIMPLY DELIVERS A MESSAGE?
https://www.facebook.com/joseph.a.islam/posts/247680292035772
[2] UNDERSTANDING VERSE 42:51 - WHO CAN RECEIVE 'WAHI'?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/wahi%20FM3.htm
[3] WERE ALL THE PROPHET'S UTTERANCES A 'WAHI' FROM GOD? (DIVINELY INSPIRED)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prophetic%20utterances%20FM3.htm
[4] Did Prophet Receive Revelations Outside the Quran?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=97.0


Offline maverick83pk

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #7 on: August 29, 2016, 11:42:07 AM »
Dear Hamzeh,

Thanks for your inputs, i have read all the links...so it means Prophet did receive clear and almost vivid inspirations outside quran in a personal capacity to help with some task at hand related to administration of state or for some other wisdom / purpose BUT the "scriptural revelation" which was inspired to him was only the verses which are protected in the Quran...right? Maybe when he was alive and if we were under his ministry, we would have been asked to also follow the other inspirations to him...am i understanding correctly?

Now that he is not amongst us, it appears that we are only obligated to follow Quran! Since, God never protected the "other inspirations" as He in His infinite wisdom did not deem them necessary for all times. Whereas, the people who were alive in his period, were also asked to follow the prophet (meaning quran + other inspirations) and if they had any doubt, since, the prophet was alive and amongst them, they could go and ask the prophet about the matter which originated from the "other inspirations" in which they got confused.

Am i getting this all correct? or do i sound more confused?  :-\

P.S: The claim that these "other inspirations" were later compiled in a reliable written form a century later, for which God did not take any responsibility, neither the prophet made any arrangements nor the immediate companions, is fake and bogus. It has no religious binding and nobody authorized hadith compilers to make their collections.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #8 on: August 30, 2016, 02:31:15 AM »
Asalamu Alykum brother maverick83pk

Quote
Thanks for your inputs, i have read all the links...so it means Prophet did receive clear and almost vivid inspirations outside quran in a personal capacity to help with some task at hand related to administration of state or for some other wisdom / purpose BUT the "scriptural revelation" which was inspired to him was only the verses which are protected in the Quran...right? Maybe when he was alive and if we were under his ministry, we would have been asked to also follow the other inspirations to him...am i understanding correctly?

From my humble perspective, I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran. As the ONLY inspiration that the prophet was told to reveal to his people was the Quran only. This of course does not mean he did not speak to his people with his own wisdom, but that was NOT HIS DUTY. He however had to use the Quran to conduct his affairs for his time. His situations may have changed from time to time and his ways in his dealings would arguably have to change.

Also Muhammad was a messenger in the midst of the people, he was to be OBEYED by his people in any just matter. This was always the case for any messenger that stepped foot onto the earth. The people who are ALIVE with a messenger are always expected to OBEY a messenger. A messenger would arguably be making serious decisions on behalf of his people, spreading a message in truth and/or acting more superior than even a country's president. However in prophet Muhammad's case, himself also was INSTRUCTED to follow and judge only by the Quran (6:155, 50:45, 10:15).

4:64 (part) We sent not a messenger, but to be obeyed, in accordance with the will of Allah....

There is no other inspiration that the followers had to follow only the Quran. But ultimately because they had a messenger in their midst they were required to obey him in his judgment and decisions and consequently they would also believe in the message that he was imparting.

Quote
Now that he is not amongst us, it appears that we are only obligated to follow Quran! Since, God never protected the "other inspirations" as He in His infinite wisdom did not deem them necessary for all times. Whereas, the people who were alive in his period, were also asked to follow the prophet (meaning quran + other inspirations) and if they had any doubt, since, the prophet was alive and amongst them, they could go and ask the prophet about the matter which originated from the "other inspirations" in which they got confused.

Yes but we could never know if they knew the prophet had other inspirations. They could of been unaware of this. As they understood the prophet was following the Quran. God knows best.

Quote
P.S: The claim that these "other inspirations" were later compiled in a reliable written form a century later, for which God did not take any responsibility, neither the prophet made any arrangements nor the immediate companions, is fake and bogus. It has no religious binding and nobody authorized hadith compilers to make their collections.

I think whatever happened after we don't know. Did the prophet speak to his people how the angel approached him for example? Did he explain what he saw? Did he explain what he saw when God took him from masjid al haram to masjid al aqsa.

At the end God knows best. What remains important however like you said, God did not deem it necessary to explained anything else.

Salam

Offline maverick83pk

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #9 on: August 30, 2016, 11:11:30 AM »
Dear Hamzeh,

Jazak Allah Khair :)

Offline Zack

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #10 on: August 30, 2016, 05:26:57 PM »

From my humble perspective, I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran. As the ONLY inspiration that the prophet was told to reveal to his people was the Quran only.

Also Muhammad was a messenger in the midst of the people, he was to be OBEYED by his people in any just matter. This was always the case for any messenger that stepped foot onto the earth. The people who are ALIVE with a messenger are always expected to OBEY a messenger. A messenger would arguably be making serious decisions on behalf of his people, spreading a message in truth and/or acting more superior than even a country's president. However in prophet Muhammad's case, himself also was INSTRUCTED to follow and judge only by the Quran (6:155, 50:45, 10:15).

There is no other inspiration that the followers had to follow only the Quran. But ultimately because they had a messenger in their midst they were required to obey him in his judgment and decisions and consequently they would also believe in the message that he was imparting.


Hello all,

I thought I would throw something into this discussion, which may be a bit controversial, but something I feel has validity, based on the Qur'an and history around the time of the Qur'an. I note above, and in other discussions:

a)   The repeated reference to Muhammad as a Prophet, which I believe was NOT a part of the way Muhammad was referred to in his lifetime.

It seems fairly clear that the message during Muhammad’s lifetime and the decades following was more “God-focussed” with far less focus upon Muhammad, as compared to later tradition. The original confession did not seem to have reference to Muhammad. References to Muhammad, both in the Qur’an and in literature increased over time. Being referred to regularly as a Prophet also a later development during the Umayyad Dynasty.

b)   I doubt there was such a clear distinction between the Quran revelation and Muhammad’s own inspiration. In explaining…

If we read the Qur’an, much is referring to contemporary events of Muhammad's time. This is to be understood, as the situation demanded simple instructions for Arab warriors, in particular to unite them in a code of conduct as they journeyed across Arabia in their battles.

The statement “I DO NOT believe that the believers who were alive with the prophet were asked to FOLLOW other inspirations than the Quran.”

The previous Books were viewed as inspired; inspiration was not limited to the Qur’an. Beyond that, the differentiating of inspired instruction and non-inspired instruction may not have been so straightforward.

Wasalam
Zack


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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #11 on: August 30, 2016, 05:35:22 PM »
Peace. Does, or doesn't our book state to follow the books revealed to the former peoples?
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Offline Zack

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #12 on: August 31, 2016, 03:35:29 AM »
Peace. Does, or doesn't our book state to follow the books revealed to the former peoples?

The Qur'an is in unity and authenticates the Previous Books, which were not intended to be the ownership of one particular people or religious group. The following verses are a sample that would help confirm this...

Surah 3: 3,4,81,50,48
Surah 2: 41,89,91,97.101
Surah 5: 46
Surah 35:31
Surah 10: 37
Surah 12: 111
Surah 46:12,30

There is a clear and repeated theme of an intended unity amongst the Holy Books from the Qur'an, not just with 1 verse, but repeated throughout as shown above. There is no sense of "Replacement Theology", that is Muhammad replaced the previous prophets, The Qur'an replaces the Bible, Islam replaces Christianity etc etc. This doctrine is imitating the Roman Church, who promoted this doctrine, saying that their structure and truth had replaced the previous.

As a book "Authenticating", the Qur'an promotes a view of integrating the message of the Holy Books. The above clearly promotes that.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #13 on: August 31, 2016, 07:52:29 PM »
peace Student, all,

You may be interested to know that there are independent studies trying to determine the chronological order of revelation of Al Quran using Al Quran itself, e.g.

For an excellent start, please see part 2 of Neal Robinson's book 'Discovering Quran' available here:
http://www.islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html

Offline Amira

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Re: Quran Revelation Order
« Reply #14 on: September 01, 2016, 04:13:55 AM »
That link has so much information, did you compile the list yourself? You could provide that link on Free-Minds and the Misconceptions website. The studies people have done on Quranic structure are amazing.
“Narrated Buraydah ibn al-Hasib: I heard the Apostle of Allah say: In eloquence there is magic, in knowledge ignorance, and in poetry wisdom”

“Historically, what is or isn’t mainstream (in Islam) has always been a function of power, not of truth.” (Iyad El-Baghdadi, Arab Spring activist)