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Offline Student

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No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« on: October 20, 2016, 03:58:24 PM »
Salaamun Alaykum,
Sir Joseph,

I was surprised in fact shocked to learn that there is not one single verse in entire Torah and Talmud explicitly mentioning afterlife (Hell and Heaven) - is this true? How is it possible contrasting this with the Quran so vivid that it takes its reader to a virtual tour of pleasures of paradise and the horrors of the Hell? It condemns anyone who does not believe in the afterlife to Hell, how then are Jews expected to fare well with few implied figurative verses in OT and most of them rejecting the Quran in its entirety?

Thanks,
~Student

 
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #1 on: October 20, 2016, 05:55:53 PM »
Shalom / peace Student ....

Brother Joseph has already answered this question here .....>>>

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=166.0

Offline Student

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #2 on: October 21, 2016, 10:52:22 AM »
Walekum salaam,
Brother Duster,

I saw that post and also some of the Jewish sites discussing their Aqeedah, and hence my query as their theological assertions are all based on few implicit verses that Sir Joseph mentioned in the post which you kindly shared. My question is after reading those is: how an entire and tremendous nation's (a God's favorite at that) fate is judged on implicit verses if they're are only given what we see today? Did they lost or corrupted it?

Please enlighten me in my KG knowledge in/about the previous scriptures  :-[

Thanks,
~ Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline wanderer

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #3 on: October 21, 2016, 11:38:29 AM »
Dear Student-
Jews were invited to accept the veracity of the Quran and re-read their holy books accordingly. Thus, they would have discovered the truth of the afterlife that had become somewhat 'hidden' to them over the years.
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #4 on: October 21, 2016, 01:46:06 PM »
Salam

I agree with what Brother Wanderer has said and also, when the Quran talks about what a believer ( Mumin, Jew, Christian, Sabian, anybody who expects to be save from God's wrath) should believe in, there is no mention of heaven or hell.

5:69
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Sabians and the Christians, whoever believed in Allah and the Last Day and did good deeds, then no fear on them and not they will grieve.

2:62
Indeed, those who believed and those who became Jews and the Christians and the Sabians - who believed in Allah and the Day [the] Last and did righteous deeds, so for them (is) their with their Lord and no fear on them and not they will grieve.

Final destination of the soul in either place ( heaven or hell) is after Day of Judgement /Last Day is over. Interestingly, what is mentioned in the Torah is the concept of accountability, the fact that one will be judged and have to answer to God and that they will be 'gathered'. This is ofcourse how one also sees the Day of Judgement decribed in the Quran, a day, when everyone will be raised again and gathered infront of God to be judged. After this Day of Judgement/Gathering occurs, your ultimate destination is heaven or hell, so the Torah is not missing any core belief. A day of 'gathering' is clearly mentioned in the Torah, you can see this 'gathering' as the Day of Judgement, when everyone( good and evil will be raised and gathered together in front of God)  and also as a gathering in heaven( a gathering of only good and and pious souls) or hell ( an ultimate gathering of evil souls after the Judgement Day).
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline Student

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #5 on: October 22, 2016, 06:19:51 PM »
Salaam,

Thanks Wanderer and Nura for sharing your thoughts but my Question still remains - is there or isn't there an EXPLICIT verse about afterlife in the OT? gathered/gathering is not explicit (apparently there's great disagreement and debate till date among Jews as simple Google/Bing results shows) besides 5:69 or 2:62 are NOT the ONLY verses about "set of beliefs" and we all as Quran centrist profess that and I'm sure you'll not disagree.

Is Yawm al-Hisab = Aakhirah and synonymous?

http://islamawakened.com/quran/30/16/


Jews were invited to accept the veracity of the Quran and re-read their holy books accordingly.

Have they accepted this invitation? And have they re-read their books after this verification?

Thus, they would have discovered the truth of the afterlife that had become somewhat 'hidden' to them over the years.
Have they discovered the truth?

Somewhat hidden? Have you read the OT and NT cover to cover?

I guess I better read it myself inshallah. Brother Zack and other brothers of scriptures who embraced the Quran, can you guide me to the best Android app where I can read in my leisure the OT and NT? I thank you for sharing this desktop http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/ site, I see few links are broken or not working but I would solicit your advise on how to start and read cover to cover scriptures of the past Prophets?

Thanks,
~ Student



Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #6 on: October 22, 2016, 11:15:41 PM »
Shalom / peace......A Jewish prophet came to them before prophet Muhammad that taught them the Torah and spoke to them about the afterlife in a lot of detail......He was given the Injeel.....and he was only sent to the Jews or Children of Israel....His name was Jesus......did the Jews believe in him???.......they are told to rely on all that came to them........

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #7 on: October 23, 2016, 04:38:36 AM »
Peace Student.
Like you said, the best answer would be for you to read/study the old testament and find out.

For one view check this:
http://helpmewithbiblestudy.org/7Humans/DeathWhatDidOTBelieversThink.aspx

Or this view:
https://theophiletos.wordpress.com/2015/01/11/afterlife-in-the-old-testament/
And this one:
http://people.bethel.edu/~dhoward/classes/OT232/OTafterlife.pdf

There are lots of views around, but the best one for you will be your own after you study the old testament.
GOD bless you.
Peace
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Student

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #8 on: October 24, 2016, 12:18:40 PM »
Salaamun Alaykum,

Brother Duster
Quote
Shalom / peace......A Jewish prophet came to them before prophet Muhammad that taught them the Torah and spoke to them about the afterlife in a lot of detail......He was given the Injeel.....and he was only sent to the Jews or Children of Israel....His name was Jesus......did the Jews believe in him???.......they are told to rely on all that came to them........

Exactly! That is my question to Wanderer earlier. As the beginner's Quran reader I humbly feel the Divine scriptures are sequential in some sort and hence belief in all of them as and when they revealed is required for complete and correct guidance otherwise we have this conundrum - entire OT without one explicit verse about the afterlife and the Quran which is Muhaimin over it says the previous scriptures are partially corrupt and some of it was deliberately kept hidden (was 'afterlife' fell victim of this crime?)

Sister Nura,

FYI - I came across this thread where brother Imran Faruqi's argument appears very solid and cogent and addresses "set of beliefs" which includes the verses you quoted 2:62 and 5:69 among all other relevant ones.
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1602.0

Brother Good Logic,

Thanks for sharing the links  :)
Excuse me for being naive, is Daniel part of OT or NT? It appears the verse 2 http://www.revisedenglishversion.com/Daniel/12 is explicit about afterlife and expressing fate of both its dwellers. So, as brother Duster kindly noted the belief in Daniel (appears to be part of NT) is required for correct and complete belief in one aspect of life and afterlife among all other "set of beliefs".

Thanks,
~Student
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline wanderer

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #9 on: October 24, 2016, 12:41:31 PM »
Yes, perhaps the afterlife did fall victim to some of the crimes of some of the Children of Israel, perhaps to peddle some theological agenda. But that is no longer relevant, seeing as we now have pure, undefiled scripture explicitly mentioning the afterlife in great detail. There is no longer any excuse for anyone not to acknowledge this nowadays (provided they have come into contact with it and are aware of its true message).
Regards
wanderer
Rather, We dash the truth upon falsehood, and it destroys it, and thereupon it departs. And for you is destruction from that which you describe. (21:18)

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #10 on: October 24, 2016, 01:22:31 PM »
Salam

I have read the thread before hand and I do not agree with brother Imran Faruqui. I have given my statement regarding this topic with proof from Quran. If Quran says believe in one God, Day of Judgement and doing good deeds is enough for salvation. I am not going to question it. God clearly says people who are doing these things have nothing to fear. There are countless other things mentioned in the Quran and one is ofcourse supposed to believe them as well. But I think these verses reflect how merciful our God really is and that He is not complicated. We make religion complicated by searching for ever finer details. When God is silent. Brother Faruqui  makes a lot of statements in that post for which there is no Quranic evidence. He believes that:
Quote
  1. The Qur’an informs the People of the Book that their own Scriptures are partially corrupted:

Yes partially corrupted and the Quran still asks them to follow their own scripture. He conviniently overlooks this point. Brother Joseph has detailed articles and posts about this. I have also posted relevent posts with evidence previously. Please search and find them out.

Quote
2. The Qur’an points out some specific doctrines from past Scriptures that are false. For example, it points out that the doctrine of the Trinity is false:

Yes and they are asked to desist . But they are still asked to follow the shariah of the Torah. The Quran does not override the Torah's shariah. Not one verse in the entire Quran says that it has come to override and replace the previous books' shariah. Please read relevant posts by Brother Joseph or else, may I suggest you read the entire Quran yourself and search for evidence. You will not get a verse that says otherwise.Brother Joseph has an article discussing this, that the Bible does not teach trinity.

Quote
3. The Qur’an was sent to remove some of the shackles that were previously on the People of the Book: 

Yes, some not all shackles are removed and they are mentioned in detail in the Quran which are lifted, like they can marry our women and have our food and vice versa. Also a lot of their shariah remains unchanged and they are asked to adhere to them. If they fail to do so they will be transgressing.

Quote
4. The Qur’an is a confirmation of previous Scriptures, and with FINAL AUTHORITY over them: 

The Quran guards and confirms the Torah. It is not a final authority over the other Books. If something is not mentioned in the Quran but mentioned in Torah, that does not automatically mean that the information in the Torah is false. The Quran clearly says that it brushes over a lot of information in the Bible. It is not the intention of the Quran to replace the Bible. The Quran has shariah for believers and Bible and Torah has shariah for Children of Israel. This thought that Bible is not enough for guidance is entirely unquranic. We are also asked to believe in the Bible, but this does not mean we have to follow the Bible's shariah and this is implausible in some cases, the Children of Israel have a different Qibla and we have a different one. Plurality of shariah is evident in the Arabic Quran.

Moreover, are you aware that brother Faruqui claims to be a messenger?! He has claimed and has worked with end of the days topics, they are on this forum. I have gone through them and I am not a fan of his work. He makes a lot of unfounded assumptions about Islam. He makes a lot of claims about religion which are not sourced from the the Quran or the Bible. He claims we should believe him because he is a messenger, and these are revealed to him. I would ask anyone to take his posts with a pinch of salt and do their own research before believing anything he says.
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #11 on: October 24, 2016, 05:48:47 PM »
Peace Nura.

I am not sure about what you are saying here,quote:

" We are also asked to believe in the Bible"

Please give the Qoran verse/s for this.

Thank you.
GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #12 on: October 24, 2016, 05:52:44 PM »
Peace Student.
Daniel was  before Jesus. How can it be part of NT?

GOD bless you.
Peace.
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197

Offline Nura

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #13 on: October 24, 2016, 09:37:11 PM »
Salam Brother Good logic

Quote
  Peace Nura.

I am not sure about what you are saying here,quote:

" We are also asked to believe in the Bible"

Please give the Qoran verse/s for this.

By this I meant that we are asked to believe that there were other divinely inspired books and the Torah was from Allah. But, it contained laws( shariah) for Children of Israel. We are not asked to follow the Torah's shariah.We are asked to follow Quran's shariah but believe in the divinity of the Torah, Zabur etc. For example:  Our Qibla is the one stated in the Quran.

We are asked to believe in the Torah and Bible present with 7th century Children of Israel:

29:46
"And do not dispute with the followers of the Book except by what is best, except those of them who act unjustly, and say: We believe in that which has been revealed to us and revealed to you, and our Allah and your Allah is One, and to Him do we submit"



003.003-4
It is He Who sent down to thee (step by step), in truth, the Book, confirming what went before it (Arabic: ma bayna yadayhi); and He sent down the Law (of Moses) and the Gospel (of Jesus) before this, as a guide to mankind, and He sent down the Criterion (of judgment between right and wrong). Then those who reject faith in the signs of God will suffer the severest penalty, and God is exalted in might, Lord of retribution”

And Allah says not to be in doubt when we come in contact with what Children of Israel were reading at the prophet Muhammad's time:
32:23
"And certainly We gave Moses the Scripture, so do not be in doubt encountering it (Arabic: liqaihi) and We made it a guide for the Children of Israel"

Also we are asked to believe in all the books and all the messengers.
2:285
 "The messenger believes in that which has been revealed to him from his Lord and (so do) believers (Arabic: mu'minuna). Each one believes in God and His angels and His scriptures and His messengers - We make no distinction between any of His messengers - and they say: We hear, and we obey. (Grant us) Thy forgiveness, our Lord. Unto Thee is the journeying"

Regarding the Torah, we are asked not to argue with Children of Israel, and any dispute with them and us will be settled by God on the day of Judgement:
10:41
"If they charge you with falsehood, say: "My work to me, and yours to you! ye are free from responsibility for what I do, and I for what you do!""

Mumins and Children of Israel have the same religion (deen):
42:13

"The same religion / system (Arabic: Deen) has He established for you as that which He enjoined on Noah and that which We have sent by inspiration to thee and that which We enjoined on Abraham, Moses, and Jesus: Namely, that ye should remain steadfast in religion, and make no divisions in it: to those who worship other things than God, hard is the (way) to which you call them. God chooses to Himself those whom He pleases, and guides to Himself those who turn (to Him)"

But Mumins (people who received in Quran as the binding scripture) and Children of Israel have different shariah( religious laws) and different religious rites
22:67-69
"To every People have We appointed rites and ceremonies which they must follow: [See above 5.48] let them not then dispute with thee on the matter, but do invite (them) to thy Lord: for you are assuredly on the right way. If they do wrangle with you, say, "God knows best what it is you are doing. God will judge between you on the Day of Judgment concerning the matters in which you differ." [See 10.41 below]
5:48
“To thee We revealed the Scripture in truth, confirming the scripture that is between the hands (Arabic: bayna yadayhi - coexistent Torah and Bible *), and guarding it by determining what is true and false (Arabic: wa-muhayminan): so judge between them by what God has revealed, and follow not their vain desires, diverging from the Truth that has come to thee. To each among you have we prescribed a law (Arabic: Shir-atan) and an open way (Arabic: waminhajan). If God had so willed, He would have made you a single people, but (His plan is) to test you in what He has given you: so strive as in a race in all virtues. The goal of you all is to God; it is He that will show you the truth of the matters in which ye dispute”

Conversion is not necessary for the Children of Israel:
Brother Joseph says:
Quote
42:15-16
“To this then go on inviting, and go on steadfastly on the right way as you are commanded, and do not follow their desires, and say: I believe in what God has revealed of the Book, and I am commanded to do justice between you: God is our Lord and your Lord; we shall have our deeds and you shall have your deeds; no plea need there be (now) between us and you: God will gather us together, and to Him is the return. But those who dispute concerning God after He has been accepted, futile is their dispute in the Sight of their Lord: on them will be a severe punishment”

Once God has been recognised as one God of both parties whom both parties serve, any further dispute in the sight of God is futile. 

Brother Joseph's article describes beautifully what is expected from us and the People of the Book. Please read it, if you haven't. He explains in detail their role and our role while interacting with them and their Scripture, Torah and Bible :
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/people%20of%20the%20book%20FM3.htm
Not all those who wander are lost - J.R.R. Tolkien

Offline good logic

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Re: No explicit verse about the afterlife in OT?
« Reply #14 on: October 25, 2016, 03:12:11 AM »
Peace Nura.
Thank you for your post.
GOD is consistent . GOD has not asked us or anyone else to follow "Men s words".
 GOD has asked  ( All the three religions)  to follow "What He revealed only".
I do not see anywhere in Qoran where GOD is asking anyone to follow/judge by"  the bible" .
Of course if one claims every word in the bible is "What GOD has revealed",then let us have the evidence.
GOD bless you.
Peace. 
Total loyalty to GOD
In GOD i TRUST.
https://total-loyalty-to-god-alone.co.uk/?page_id=197