The laws mentioned in Taurah & Injeel need not be followed after Quran

[Sardar Miyan]

May I request Bro Joseph Islam to kindly clarify as to following the laws of Taurah & Injeel by Muslims?
Secondly the Jews & Christans may continue to follow their Books after Quran was revealed? Thanks

[wanderer]

Sigh... This question has been talked about and debated on this forum MANY, MANY, MANY times. Brother Joseph has also made his personal positions on the matter unequivocally clear. I'm honestly a little surprised that such a long-standing member of this forum would even have to ask this question.
Regards
wanderer

[munir rana]

Brother Sardar

Salam

Hope that Brother Joseph will respond. But you know he is very busy. So here I am forwarding some links you can take a look. There are many discussions ongoing in this forum which you will find useful, I think.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/between%20hands%20or%20before%20it%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/injeel%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1264.0

Regards.

[munir rana]

Dear  wanderer

Salam.

Brother Sardar is not only a long-standing member, but one of the most senior members of this forum. Probably he is over 80 and sometimes can not recall something about previous posts. Once he asked forgiveness for this limitation. I think we must appreciate his endeavour at this age with patience. If you can please try to help him. If you can't let Brother Joseph to respond, as the query is directed to him. And don't be surprised. One day we shall reach this age, if Allah wills. My father is 83 years old. I know a little the burden of old age.

Please don't be hurt with my words.

Regards.

[Duster]

Shalom / peace all.....I'm sure i read somewhere that brother Sardar was close to his 90s or even in his 90s?

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam All I am 85 in 2016. Thanks and pray for my long age. Thanks

[wanderer]

I sincerely apologize. I had no intention of disrespect. Congratulations on your long life brother. God bless.
Regards
wanderer

[Student]

Mashallah, 85  and Wanderer was just 14 couple or few months ago 

I think I didn't realize Sardar Miyan's age and had no idea before and so I sincerely apologize if/whenever I hurt your feeling sir however that does not mean I'm careless to younger ones but just extra respect for the aged as brother Munir rightly noted.

Coming back to the topic, which keeps popping up because it one of the important, hot and ever-green one

Here's my humble understanding/perspective after reading all the relevant articles and nearly all of the posts of Sir Joseph on the subject:
A very minuscule people from the previous scriptures qualifies (so do the followers of the Quran) and are entitled to remain on their books provided, among others, they:

• Do no Shirk
• Do no transgression in their Deen
• Do Zakah & Salah which should include Ruku and Sujud
• Judge among themselves from God's scriptures, always
• whenever come in contact with new Prophet/Messenger/Book or their news, must embrace and follow it after due verification

Please correct me if/wherever I'm wrong.

[Amira]

Hi, congratulations on your long life too

Wanderer, you should be a little more careful with the wording of your posts. It's not deliberate; you never mean to offend anyone but it always seems to end that way.

Adding to what Student said, Joseph Islam has often addressed the misconception that the Bible is hopelessly corrupted. To the contrary, it contains valid guidance, although the Quran "remains the law in matters of religion."

I haven't read the OT or NT, but from what I've read about them, neither one ever actually mentions the doctrine of the Trinity. However, they do contain statements and passages that amount to shirk, like John 3:16. It seems like it would be difficult to ascertain which parts are original if the reader is unfamiliar with the Quran. So it would be almost impossible to maintain a monotheistic ideology purely based on Christian scripture.

In the present day, I find it hard to believe there's anyone from the followers of the previous scriptures who would be allowed to retain their laws. But it's interesting to note that a lot of Judeo-Christian theology is sourced from interpolation that has no warrant in the actual text.

I've read that the Trinitarian doctrine was largely promoted (maybe invented?) by the Council of Nicea in 325 AD. It appears to have no actual basis in scripture.

[Nura]

Salam Brother Sardar Miyan

Congratulations! It is wonderful to hear that God has bestowed you with such a long life. I hope you continue to be this active and contribute on this forum the way you have been doing for so many years.

When I asked Brother Joseph, he said people who are not from the people of the book, they are supposed to follow the laws in the Quran, but believe that the revelations that came to the people of the book were also from our God. At that time I was not aware that there is a difference between believing that their ( Bible, Torah etc) books are divinely inspired and following their shariah. So, he made it clear that I have to follow only the laws(shariah) in the Quran not the ones in the previous books, as I am not from among the Children of Israel or people of the book.

Similarly, he told me that Jews and Christians are to believe that Quran is divinely inspired and is from the same God.  But, just like we are asked to follow the shariah in the Quran only, they are asked to follow the shariah ( religious laws and rites) present in their books not the Quran. They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books. God mentions and corrects the laws and doctrines that needed correction and confirmation. God mentions, corrects and confirms their laws in the Quran, others that are not mentioned God has said that He has overlooked and brushed over much of what is in their Books.

This is what I have understood from Brother Joseph's articles and replies to me and others regarding this topic. If I have misunderstood anything, may God have mercy on me and guide me to the correct understanding.

God Bless

[munir rana]

Dear Nura
Salam

Its a great joy to have a sister like you in this forum who is not only knowledgeable but also able to clarify things with detail descriptions and your patience is exemplary. May Allah reward you here and hereafter.

You said,
"God mentions, corrects and confirms their laws in the Quran, others that are not mentioned God has said that He has overlooked and brushed over much of what is in their Books."

 Would you please elaborate about what "He has overlooked and brushed over". Some example.

One more thing. There are many instances that sometimes people change their religion. They convert. According the discussions going on it is understandable that this conversion is needles. But is there any problem if anyone wants to convert from one religion to another? Is it permissible? If a christian or jew converts to Islam, then can a muslim convert to those religion. Are we free to choose within these monotheist religions?

Regards.

[Zack]

There are many instances that sometimes people change their religion. They convert. According the discussions going on it is understandable that this conversion is needles. But is there any problem if anyone wants to convert from one religion to another? Is it permissible? If a christian or jew converts to Islam, then can a muslim convert to those religion. Are we free to choose within these monotheist religions?

That is a fantastic question. I was actually going to start a new thread related to that question... which I will..

[Zack]

They are asked to read the Quran and refer to the Quran in order to understand which doctrines and laws became corrupted in their books. God mentions and corrects the laws and doctrines that needed correction and confirmation. God mentions, corrects and confirms their laws in the Quran, others that are not mentioned God has said that He has overlooked and brushed over much of what is in their Books.
God Bless

Nura, is the above you quoted God mentions and corrects the laws and doctrines that needed correction something that you are referring to from a word study by Br. Joseph? I suspect, as I have mentioned a number of times, that there is nothing in the Qur'an to justify this view.

I also feel that the legal instructions in the Qur'an was intended to be different to the Torah... as the law is created for a specific environment and people. For example, if God revealed a law to people living in the antarctic, the food laws would look quite different to the desert. Anyway, I hope this makes sense.

I know not many agree with me, but for me reading the Qur'an contextually is what makes sense to me...

Wasalam

Zack

[Nura]

Salam Brother Munir Rana

Thank you for your kind words. It is a pleasure to interact with you all on this forum.

By ' overlooked and brushed over' I am referring to practices/rites/laws/beliefs that maybe mentioned in the Bible but the Quran makes no mention of i.e practice of circumcision, etc. The Quran does not mention this practice at all and the Christians make use of their scriptures to suggest that it is not a religious requirement for them whereas the Jews make use of their books to suggest it is a religious requirement. Brother Joseph's article on this topic makes the point that the Quran does not mention it and also that Biblical evidence is also not conclusive regarding this practice. So, if this is practiced by believers, it is practiced out of choice.

Brother it is not so easy to explicitly state what these overlooked commandments/beliefs/laws are, one has to be very sure about whether the laws that are being overlooked were ever from God in the first place or were additions or interpolations made by people of the book. I mentioned circumcision because it is practiced as a religious rite by Muslims and Jews, but the Quran is silent and the Bible is inconclusive. Please do read the article by brother Joseph for clarification.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/circumcision%20FM3.htm

When the Quran brushes over/ overlooks/  pardons something from the previous books, the general guidance extracted is that one is now free to make use of one's choice to get involved/not involved in these overlooked activities. Simply put, God is not confirming such a practice or belief as religiously binding, so one is free to do and believe what one wants regarding these topics, with reason of course.

Furthermore, in one of his posts, Brother Joseph says that the Quran mentions what it confirms from the previous scriptures:

 http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=446.msg1385#msg1385

When the Quran says that it confirms the Bible (musadaqan), the parts that it confirms are clearly revealed to us including the narratives that deal with Biblical portents.

Yes indeed, the Quran does not confirm falsehood but acts as a 'furqan' (something which does 'farq' - a criterion between right and wrong). It is also a 'muhaymin' a guardian, a watcher, an overseer, over the Bible and determines what is true and what is false.   

The topic of conversion is a tricky one. I asked this question and what Brother Joseph said to me is that what we have to keep in mind is that Jews and Christians are not from a different deen( religion) from the Quran's perspective. They just have different laws and rites. They do not have to convert to the ways of the Quran. The Quran only asks them to follow the shariah in their books and make use of the Quran as the guard that will help them filter falsehood that had entered in their doctrines and books. Conversion in their case is a choice. Again, God does not ask them to convert, if they take such a step, it is done out of choice, not religious necessity.

For others, who are not from the Children of Israel, Buddhists, Sikhs, Hindus etc, they are asked to read the Quran and follow the rites and laws mentioned in the Quran. Only the Children of Israel are allowed to follow their books. People from other religions have to follow the Quran once they are convinced of its divine origin.

We, followers of the Quran are not asked to follow the laws in the previous books, infact the prophet Muhammad was specifically asked to follow only that which was revealed to him. If this was not the case, we could have chosen to follow the previous books and the laws contained in them. We are not at liberty to convert and become 'Children of Israel' simply because we are not Children of Israel. Only they are supposed to follow their laws. Jesus even said that he came as a prophet to only the Children of Israel. His ministry did not extend beyond that. We are asked to follow only the Quran. Ofcourse we are free to choose to do what we want, but that includes sinning as well.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/jesus%20ministry%20FM3.htm


I hope this clarifies.

[Nura]

Salam Brother Zack

No, I have reached that conclusion from my own studies and I did refer to Brother Joseph's articles from time to time.

Actually the Quran corrects Biblical laws in some cases and it mentions this when it deems it appropriate, the Quran corrects a law for the Children of Israel, according to which they were not allowed to consume the fat of animals, this prohibition is lifted in the Quran. The Quran also says that if the 'Children of Israel' read the Quran and believe in its divinity, they will be able to get rid of some of their burdens, possibly alluding to consumption of fat, monasticism etc.

Yes, the laws were made keeping the immediate audience in mind (laws pertaining to slavery) but there are also universal religious laws (laws pertaining to marriage, child rearing, covering of bossoms for women and covering private parts for both men and women etc). Yes some religious laws have common grounds (consumption of swine flesh and intoxicants, both Bible and Quran asks us to stay away from them) and also different laws like, different Qibla, different laws regarding fasting etc. I have read your posts regarding the food laws and the assertion that the food laws are the way they are simply because of geographical position of Arabia. I do not know why God asked us not to consume swine flesh but this is certainly not a reason posited in the Quran. I simply do not know why the food laws are the way they are, anything that is not cited as a reason in the Quran will be an assumption at best. I do not know for sure whether consuming swine flesh would have been lawful if the Quran was revealed to a person living in the Arctic regions. I simply choose to not make any assumptions and make comments about revelation which are not based on scriptural evidence.