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Offline ahmad

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Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« on: December 17, 2016, 06:03:46 PM »
Did the Christians and jews ever have 5 prescribed prayers like Muslims ?
Is there a way to know how many prayers did Prophet Abaraham Pray ? Were they 5 prayers ?

Thanks.

Offline Duster

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #1 on: December 17, 2016, 07:43:12 PM »
Shalom / peace Ahmad .....

Does the following article and video link inside it help?

http://quransmessage.com/articles/jewish%20prayer%20FM3.htm

Offline ahmad

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2016, 04:15:31 AM »
Salam Duster,

Thank for the link. But I was asking about the number of prayers per day, the article mainly talks about Prayer form.

Regards.



Offline Wakas

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2016, 07:23:47 AM »
You may find these helpful:

From: Encyclopaedia_of_the_Quran vol_4
Western scholarship, on the other hand, has suggested three principal explanations for the fixation of five daily prayers:
(1) the five daily prayers are the result of duplications of the evening prayer (into salāt al-maghrib and salāt al-ishā ) and the midday prayer (into salāt al-uhr and salāt al-ar, cf. Houtsma, Iets, 127-34). This explanation is particularly reinforced by an Islamic tradition on the authority of Abdallāh b. al-Abbās (d. 68⁄687-8), arguing in the opposite direction, namely that the Prophet himself combined several salāts in Medina so as not to overburden his community (cf. Wensinck, salāt, 98);
(2) the five daily salāts were patterned on the binding duty of five daily prayers observed in Zoroastrianism (Goldziher, Islamisme, 246; cf. Boyce, Zoroastrians, 32-3);
(3) the five daily prayers were most likely chosen as a just median between the three services of the Jewish synagogue and the seven “hours” observed by Christian monks (cf. Goitein, Prayer, 84-6). For the post qurānic developments, cf. Wensinck, salāt, 98; Monnot, salāt, 926-30.)

#####

According to Islamic traditions Muslims upheld salat twice daily initially:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims

Formalisation of Friday prayer history:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-Prayer

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2016, 09:39:11 AM »
Asalamu Alykum

Just a side note to Ahmad.

The five daily prayers are mentioned by their times in the Holy Quran. If we put ourselves in the Prophets place for a moment one realizes that he notices that there was 5 daily prayers that were required for himself and the believers. The first recipients of the Quran were required to develop the prayers according to the times stated in the Quran. There was no command that the new believers were to adopt the Abrahamic times of the prayer, or their direction of prayer(for a specific time only that was part of a trial see 2:142-148). As a matter of fact the homeland(Mecca) of the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) which was not the Qibla of Moses(pbuh) or Jesus(pbuh) was later granted as the new direction of prayer for the believers. So the timings and direction of the prayers of the People of the Book was not intended by God to be the same.

One does not need any secondary sources to realize that the 5 daily prayers believers pray today has been sourced out from the Quran alone. So one can safety posit that the timings of our current 5 daily prayer are correct and has not slid to a wrong direction Alhamdulila.

Now according to your Question about if the People of the Book ever had 5 daily prayers, there seems to be evidence from verses in the Torah that the People of Moses had been prescribed 3 daily prayers, although I could be wrong because I did not verify them. This in my humble perspective would need to be referred back to the Old Testament and figure out what was commanded to them. I would assume the People of the Injeel would also have the same or different timings as well and would need to be verified by the New Testament.


Brother Wakas
Your shared
Quote
According to Islamic traditions Muslims upheld salat twice daily initially:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims

This link would be in my humble opinion without reading it goes directly against one Quranic verse which refutes this concept straight out.

2:238 “Guard (Arabic: Hafizu) strictly your prayers (Arabic: salawaat), especially the middle (Arabic: wusta) prayer; and stand before God in a devout (frame of mind)”

The prayers have to be odd numbers so its either 3,5,7 etc.

Also regarding grouping the prayers there does seem to be evidence that the prayers are to be performed at their respective times so it would be hard to conceive that the prophet would have group 2 prayers together for no good reasons.

4:103 When ye pass (Congregational) prayers, celebrate Allah's praises, standing, sitting down, or lying down on your sides; but when ye are free from danger, set up Regular Prayers: For such prayers are enjoined on believers at stated times.

Brother Joseph has written a lot of information and articles and debated over the 5 daily prayers.


With Peace and Blessings Insha'Allah

THE FIVE PRAYERS FROM THE QURAN
http://quransmessage.com/pdfs/The%20Five%20Prayers.pdf

Offline Duster

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2016, 09:55:59 AM »
Salam Duster,

Thank for the link. But I was asking about the number of prayers per day, the article mainly talks about Prayer form.

Regards.

Shalom / peace Ahmad - I asked you to look inside for a video link. It is by a Jew himself that tells you how many prayers they pray a day. I assume from your comment, that you didn't look at the video or study it?....

Here it is again

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0aHWASyMjwg

There are a number of references behind them .....

In the description, he says the following "When beginning any of the 3 daily prayers, start from a standing position facing toward the Temple in Israel, with feet side by side, eyes lowered, and ones right hand clasped over his left hand over his heart, with his heart turned to "Above" in fear, awe, and dread, as a servant before his master, (HT5:4)."


Offline Duster

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2016, 10:05:59 AM »
You may find these helpful:

From: Encyclopaedia_of_the_Quran vol_4
Western scholarship, on the other hand, has suggested three principal explanations for the fixation of five daily prayers:
(1) the five daily prayers are the result of duplications of the evening prayer (into salāt al-maghrib and salāt al-ishā ) and the midday prayer (into salāt al-uhr and salāt al-ar, cf. Houtsma, Iets, 127-34). This explanation is particularly reinforced by an Islamic tradition on the authority of Abdallāh b. al-Abbās (d. 68⁄687-8), arguing in the opposite direction, namely that the Prophet himself combined several salāts in Medina so as not to overburden his community (cf. Wensinck, salāt, 98);
(2) the five daily salāts were patterned on the binding duty of five daily prayers observed in Zoroastrianism (Goldziher, Islamisme, 246; cf. Boyce, Zoroastrians, 32-3);
(3) the five daily prayers were most likely chosen as a just median between the three services of the Jewish synagogue and the seven “hours” observed by Christian monks (cf. Goitein, Prayer, 84-6). For the post qurānic developments, cf. Wensinck, salāt, 98; Monnot, salāt, 926-30.)

#####

According to Islamic traditions Muslims upheld salat twice daily initially:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518694/Uri-Rubin-Morning-and-Evening-Prayers-in-early-Islam-by-muslims

Formalisation of Friday prayer history:
http://www.scribd.com/doc/37518569/CH-Becker-on-the-History-of-early-Muslim-Worship-and-Salat-Prayer


Shalom / peace Wakas - Why are you using secondary sources to make your case?

Offline Wakas

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2016, 12:10:29 AM »
peace all,

Hamzeh,
I disagree. In case you are not aware of this article:
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html
Please note I am not allowed to enter into a discussion of the above article on this forum, thus if you wish to discuss it further it will have to be via PM or preferably on the free-minds.org/forum


Duster,
Quote
Why are you using secondary sources to make your case?

Simple - I assumed Ahmad is aware there is very little to no info on this in Quran, hence he posted in the Bible section of the forum, thus I gave him info related to studies of those sources, and info related to fixation of timings. Not many are aware of this info.

Offline relearning

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #8 on: December 20, 2016, 10:40:15 PM »
Could you please kindly state that why Quran didnt simply state the timings of the daily prayer in a way that would not cause any turmoil which would last for centuries among the muslims? And would cause them another source of seperation. Ofcourse nobody knows what God's intention was but as He is the all knower why would he count the name of the foods that jewish people wanted of from Mosa but was reluctant to give simply timings of the daily pray. Some might say because people at that time know it, they didnt need it. Then Quran was aiming their understanding and their culture? What about the universal side of Islam then? If you claim your religion aims to bring happines to the whole world even to the  generations after generations and also if you are sending the last prophet with a last revelation shouldnt you take into consideration that some basic rules must be included inside so future generations will easily understand the main pillar of religion and will not  be divided into countless secterian groups understanding the same book in a different way and at the end becoming enemy of each other?

Main problem is that Quran by itself is not simply enough to interpret basic religious laws. Religion cannt be like a Math or Physic which only aims people who are above the average people. Religion must aim people at the average level after that we can say it is for all people. But even here there are hard studies of extracting 5 daily pray times from Quran by forcing it to give what we want. If it was simply there for simple people there would be no such disaggrements.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #9 on: December 21, 2016, 05:15:52 AM »
Peace

Brother Wakas, Insha'Allah I will reply to you another time as its not a quick reply, and I did read your article and I believe it has many loop holes.

Brother/Sister Relearning you stated
Quote
Could you please kindly state that why Quran didnt simply state the timings of the daily prayer in a way that would not cause any turmoil which would last for centuries among the muslims?

I could ask the same question about, inheritance, divorce, punishment, food restrictions, behaviour conduct, and for lots of the concepts of the Quran.

The style and rhythm of the Quran seems to intentionally have the rules, details, and guidance interwoven/mixed with the stories of the past along side a real time life situations that were being lived by a community(Prophet Muhammad and his nation).

I find this a miraculous style and also something only the Lord can make happen.

Also its expected that the Quran to be always continually studied.

4:82 Pickthall
Will they not then ponder on the Qur'an? If it had been from other than Allah they would have found therein much incongruity.

Yusuf Ali
Do they not consider the Qur'an (with care)? Had it been from other Than Allah, they would surely have found therein Much discrepancy.

9:122 And the believers should not all go out to fight. Of every troop of them, a party only should go forth, that they (who are left behind) may gain sound knowledge in religion, and that they may warn their folk when they return to them, so that they may beware.


you said
Quote
why would he count the name of the foods that jewish people wanted of from Mosa but was reluctant to give simply timings of the daily pray. Some might say because people at that time know it, they didnt need it.

Not sure exactly what you mean, but the point of the verses about the Children of Israel was not about the type of food nor was it to give a complete comprehensive list.

Quote
Main problem is that Quran by itself is not simply enough to interpret basic religious laws

The main point is that the Quran guards what is right and can eliminate what is wrong. Some of the requirements were already implemented and it may not be upon every Muslim to understand and put together the puzzle, but when the puzzle is brought into effect, it should be able to be verified from the Quran.

I hope I understood your questions and helped in some way Insha'Allah

Salam

Offline relearning

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #10 on: December 21, 2016, 02:33:52 PM »
2:61

And [recall] when you said, "O Moses, we can never endure one [kind of] food. So call upon your Lord to bring forth for us from the earth its green herbs and its cucumbers and its garlic and its lentils and its onions." [Moses] said, "Would you exchange what is better for what is less? Go into [any] settlement and indeed, you will have what you have asked." And they were covered with humiliation and poverty and returned with anger from Allah [upon them]. That was because they [repeatedly] disbelieved in the signs of Allah and killed the prophets without right. That was because they disobeyed and were [habitually] transgressing.


I meant it would go such subtle details of onions garlic lentil cucumber etc. but would not give some simple clue of what it wants from people regarding daily pray (most of them at average level). Quran is not a book aiming just scholars but from all level of society including shepherds to professors so it must take into notice of its audience. If it leaves to extract laws to people who are ardent student of quran then many people are obliged to learn quran through their views that is at the end creates a special group to whom rest of the society asks for their opinions regarding their every routine if its lawful or not according to their interpretation of quran. Adding a level of abstraction to quran some favours their scholar more than others and there comes a race and hatred towards others who dont share the same view.

And the current situation, projecture of the islamic societies, countries prove that.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2016, 02:46:57 AM »
Peace Relearning

you said
Quote
I meant it would go such subtle details of onions garlic lentil cucumber etc. but would not give some simple clue of what it wants from people regarding daily pray (most of them at average level).

I do not believe that the Quran's intention was to make certain concepts for readers so simple that they need to point to only one or two verses and get a comprehensive list and the matter is solved.

39:18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

I do find that the Quran has given the capacity to understand at least the best interpretation of a topic. It's obviously intended by God that He did not want people to grasp the perfect truth of everything. There is even verses in the Quran that are not intended to be as clear as others (3.7).

However true believers should always come to common terms with each other. There really should not be matters that are in direct contrast with each other. This with a simple glance at the Quran, from a shepard to a professor should be able to grasp.

There is nothing wrong for people to ask scholars who have taken the time to study about religion. But one must realize that scholars should also be in the habit of showing proof.

I also think the world is intentionally constructed to be a playing ground to trial humans.

God knows best who the believers are and who the wrong doers are. It is up to Him at the end to guide whom He wills. He also misleads with the verses many and He guides many.

2:26 Allah disdains not to use the similitude of things, lowest as well as highest. Those who believe know that it is truth from their Lord; but those who reject Faith say: "What means Allah by this similitude?" By it He causes many to stray, and many He leads into the right path; but He causes not to stray, except those who forsake (the path),-

6:165 It is He Who has made you (His) vicegerents (Arabic: Khalaifa), inheritors of the earth: He has raised you in ranks, some above others: that He may try you in the gifts He has given you: for thy Lord is quick in punishment: yet He is indeed Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful.

Also regarding prayer, there does seem to be a lot of studying to understand the form. But what really needs to be pondered about is, was not the prayer already in situation before the Quran was revealed.

If one for a moment understands that the form of prayer was already in progress amongst believers who were present at the time Prophet Muhammad was revealing the Quran, it would not be of hard to understand that the intention of the Quran was not to re-invent a whole form, but to only change a few aspects and this can easily be verified by explicit verses of the Quran.

This would be akin to a polytheist or an atheist in todays world who would adopt Islam and would already see a form of prayer in situation.

At the end though one important verse to keep in mind is:

39:18 Those who listen to the Word, and follow the best (meaning) in it: those are the ones whom Allah has guided, and those are the ones endued with understanding.

Peace

Offline relearning

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2016, 01:39:17 PM »
At the end it stands there are people who claims their version of interpretaion is right and if you just follow their logic you see how easy things are just follow the way they see... Even the last ayat you shared 39:18 is a subjective ayat which any group can claim that it points them. So here we are, however you said a shepherd and a professor easily graps we are living in a world of countless sects leaders etc. It looks live the material we have in our hands cannot make us united but instead divided.

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2016, 06:03:40 PM »
Peace

I would say first of all that if one is using the Quran as their source then I would not find much contrasts between groups who read the Quran literally. Also you would need to use your own logic and depend on God to guide you and a good way of discerning truth would be that any opinions brought forth should be verified by explicit verses and not go against any verses of the Quran.

The wisdom from verse 39:18 can be interpolated to choose the best of what you hear regarding the Quran. Put bias pride and arrogance aside and go with what is best and consistent. It is those who God guides and those are the ones who are endued with understanding.

If the material you are refering to is only the Quran then I disagree with you.

God knows best who the believers are and when and how He unites them is up to Him. But certainly the Quran is a guidance and a mercy that is shared by believers.

Peace

Offline ahmad

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Re: Did the people of the Book ever have 5 prayers ?
« Reply #14 on: December 25, 2016, 01:27:40 AM »
Thank you all for your contributions  :)