seeing allah in jannah

[richard]

Assalam alikum from the Sunni point of view they say yes from the shia point of view they say no what is the opion from us the quranic centric point of view

From my view I have to agree with the shia on this one because if we see allah whether fully or partially we have limted him and we have made an image and from the Sunni view some of them litrialy believe allah has a body like hands face shin legs litrialy sitting on a throne whitch I think is ridiculous and the evedence from the quran points more to no that we cant see allah than too yes to seeing allah but like I said what is the view of us the quran centric view jazzakallah

[Duster]

Shalom / peace.  Why does it seem like Sharon / Yahya again (both banned accounts as i understand) asking similar type styled questions through another account?

[richard]

Assalam alikum I don't know who that is I'm just asking questions what people bring up and bringing evedence like the view of Muhammad asad and hasan al basri and verses from the quran and like seeing allah in jannah is a big theological question in the Sunni and shia world so I wanted to know the quranic centric view on this and people bring up the verses about women and Khalifa in the litrial sense and I wanted to know about the symbolic sense and people bring up about women obeying there husbands but no one has brought up about 12:25 the husband being called lord so I don't know what the answer is too that

[samson]

My understanding from the Quran is that we will see God in heaven. There are a number of verses in the Quran which mention hands, face and eyes of God. I don't think seeing God in anyway limits God because we are just seeing an image/representation of him. God is much more than that, but as limited beings created by God (including the Angels) we interact in a certain way in the reality which God has created. So we see, hear, smell, taste, etc. The Children of Israel actually heard the voice of God so that says we can hear God's voice but that in no way limits God. Also Moses nearly saw God.

I also think God is going to be the most beautiful thing humans will see, those humans which make it to heaven. It's just a shame that many of us including me don't have have a really strong desire to see him as I believe that is the ultimate reward one can have, much greater than being granted heaven.

[Student]

Salaamun Alayka,
Br Samson,

Couldn't agree more with your concluding sentiment, however strongly yet respectfully disagree with you that He can only be seen in the hereafter.

And those who disbelieved in the signs of God and the meeting with Him, those gave up hope of My mercy and those, for them there will be a painful punishment.


Sir Joseph has shared his feeling beautifully:

https://www.facebook.com/photo.php?fbid=254553618015106&set=a.122357211234748.21109.100003814101226&type=1&theater

But those who were blind in this world, will be blind in the hereafter, and most astray from the Path.

Be not among those to despair from Allah's Mercy.

[Athman]

Salaamun Aleikum,

Dear Br. Student,

With the traditional view aside, picking from the discussion above, if Al-‘Ankabut 29:23 and Al-Isra 17:72 you quoted above are placed in their immediate contexts, nothing clearly implicative of “visual seeing” of Allah can be attributed to them.

The former is suggestive of those disbelievers denying both signs of God and the possibility of there being a day of Resurrection when all creatures including themselves (mankind) shall be gathered (‘...the meeting with Him.’)

The latter, if read in line with the verse before it talking about the calling forth of every people (by Allah) with their record, and the “right-hand” bearers, on the Day of Judgement, those “blind” in this world promised that same blindness and being more astray in the hereafter would inferably be those deniers of Allah’s signs who are described as having had about to tempt the Prophet into inventions attributing them to Allah. Blindness in the spiritual sense.

Nevertheless, with the subject of final re-creation of creatures by Allah as in 75:3 and 21:4 or 29:20 and 34:7 among other references, it sounds plausible that 75:22 supporting it with 83:18-24 and against 83:15-16 is sometimes used to support the idea that believers shall see Allah in Paradise.

That is, believers shall surely see Allah in the hereafter, in Jannah, in their new form after re-creation which nobody among the creations knows for sure the nature of that form.


Dear respected members,

Understanding the above in its right contexts, that is to say, Allah shall re-create human beings, in a form that the believers, out of His Mercy, shall be capacitated with power to “see” Him, the nature and/of the sense of “seeing” also being unperceived and unknown to us.

Could this be a correct view?

Otherwise, is it that mankind shall never see God, being an Uncreated supernatural deity that encompasses everything?

Any contribution shall highly be appreciated.


Regards,

Athman.

[Student]

Walekas Salaam
Dear Athman,

This is sensitive topic as you know, and I'm here as my name suggest a mere and humble student trying to learn. My humble perspective see  that there are two parts to this question:

• Can we desire and long for His vision?
• Whether Allah swt can be seen?

Quran has clearly expressed and expect believers to seek Him with a burning desire (18:110 & 29:5 among others).  That answers the first question. If the answer is no to second, and as you interpreted due to our incapacity in the present form - I would ask is Allah swt powerful (Qadir) to enable us to behold His beatific vision in this world if He so wills? Has Quran explicitly denied vision in this world? If we can see Him in the hereafter (as you seems to incline and align with Christianity and Sunni belief on the subject) we can surely seek and plead Him for His vision here in this world: "O our Sustainer! Grant us good in this world and good in the life to come.  I'm sure you'll not disagree there's no Hasana better and pleasing than the joy of seeing our unsurpassingly Beautiful and unimaginable Creator!

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Dear brother Student

you kindly asked

I would ask is Allah swt powerful (Qadir) to enable us to behold His beatific vision in this world if He so wills?

Allah(swt) of course can intervene into His own creation and go against the laws He created. However, Allah(swt) in many ways suggest to believers that let the course of the universe play its role. Allah(swt) asks believers to be patient at times for victory and that to not rush for things as a day to Allah(swt) is like a thousand years to our own reckoning. Miracles also seized as people in the past denied them. This suggest that there is a law that needs to run its course. However from His Mercy believers will notice interventions as God wills.

Also Allah(swt) made it clear that no human can see Him only by the ways revealed in the verse below:

42:51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

Also prophet Moses(pbuh) did not have the capacity to see the The Almighty Lord after asking Him to be seen. The whole universe seems to be created in a way that is not befitting to see the presence of the Almighty God.

6:103 Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.

Has Quran explicitly denied vision in this world?

I personally also ponder at times that not seeing The Most Glorious is such a great sign as this world is not deserving of His Great Presence. However with all the miracles and signs around us, God's presence is felt by way of faith and emotions, Alhamdulila.

If we can see Him in the hereafter (as you seems to incline and align with Christianity and Sunni belief on the subject) we can surely seek and plead Him for His vision here in this world: "O our Sustainer! Grant us good in this world and good in the life to come.  I'm sure you'll not disagree there's no Hasana better and pleasing than the joy of seeing our unsurpassingly Beautiful and unimaginable Creator!

I think readers of the Quran should stay cautioned that we cannot vision His Presence or ever dream of His Greatness. As long as the evilness and the devils remain I think the Lord in His Ultimate Pure Compassionate Perfectness cannot mix. Although He remains in full control of everything.

Although prophet Moses(pbuh) to comfort his heart asked to see the Almighty Lord I think now we know also it is not possible and He is that Great.

Although I trust you understand this Insha'Allah but some wisdom Insha'Allah from a verse is it seems that believing in God should not result in seeing God or the Angels. As the matter would be settled, and that the signs and messages around us clearly portray the truth.

2:210 Do they await but that Allah should come to them in covers of clouds and the angels [as well] and the matter is [then] decided? And to Allah [all] matters are returned.

6:158 Do they [then] wait for anything except that the angels should come to them or your Lord should come or that there come some of the signs of your Lord? The Day that some of the signs of your Lord will come no soul will benefit from its faith as long as it had not believed before or had earned through its faith some good. Say, "Wait. Indeed, we [also] are waiting."


Even in the hereafter it is debatable that God's bodily image will be seen(although there maybe verses that seem to be read like that, but I won't go into that now). The way I try to imagine things is by way of dimensions. This is just a way to possibly think of how or where we are in life, sleep, or death. Just a way of interpretation it in the worldly life as I don't think we can paint the way things work perfectly. Only God knows.

For example, imagine a cartoon show. Outside the television is a real world. The characters and every thing from its colours and motion inside the cartoon is controlled. Those cartoons no matter what they do can never see outside of their dimension no matter how vast the surroundings to them may be.

That is only a example of course and not to be compared with the actual created physical world.

The created world with all its signs, knowledge, information, beauty, goodness, bounties, feelings and perfection should never be discredited. Whether its an illusion or not.

I try to imagine it by ways of dimensions or realms.

Only GOD knows best. GOD is the Real Being, Sublime.

Salam

[Athman]

Waaleikum Salaam,

Thanks a lot Br. Hamzeh for the input. The possibilities advanced sound plausible.

As a particular piece to be considered, I concur with your point here:

“I personally also ponder at times that not seeing The Most Glorious is such a great sign as this world is not deserving of His Great Presence. However with all the miracles and signs around us, God's presence is felt by way of faith and emotions, Alhamdulila.”

Dear Br. Student,

Firstly, may I kindly include an accidental omission in my above shared opinion, as captured in the course of this response below. The citation should have been 75:22-23.

Given that Br. Hamzeh has tried to respond to your queries above, I won’t add something into that as I personally feel that it suffices. On a different note, your question below would also have been well addressed by the following verse as cited by Br. Hamzeh just before the quote.

“Has Quran explicitly denied vision in this world?”

Vision perceives Him not, but He perceives [all] vision; and He is the Subtle, the Acquainted.(Qur’an, Al-An’am 6:103)

About your statement, “If we can see Him in the hereafter (as you seems to incline and align with Christianity and Sunni belief on the subject)...” I disagree with your bracketed premise, and in particular, what I have put into bold. That’s an interpolation of my humble perspective as shared above. Moreover, the Sunni belief doesn’t necessarily equate to the Christianity as you may agree. While the common Sunni viewpoint is that of seeing Allah in Paradise, as far as this subject is concerned, and allegedly occasioned to be on every Friday of the Days of Hereafter [1], from the popular viewpoint of mainstream Christianity, God already did manifest as Jesus, the God incarnate, and that nothing of His Sovereignty limits Him to do so or do anything if He so wills, at any point in time.

Nonetheless, as similarly shared by Br. Hamzeh, my take on the subject is just in an effort to reconcile the various Qur’anic verses that suggest such a possibility of “seeing” Allah by believers in Jannah. To reiterate my point in this, I again put it as follows:

“Nevertheless, with the subject of final re-creation of creatures by Allah as in 75:3 and 21:4 or 29:20 and 34:7 among other references, it sounds plausible that 75:22-23 supporting it with 83:18-24 and against 83:15-16 is sometimes used to support the idea that believers shall see Allah in Paradise.”

After all, I shared the above with a request for the opinions of others on the same, in an effort to stay with the Qur'anic take on the same.

You kindly share:

“I'm sure you'll not disagree there's no Hasana better and pleasing than the joy of seeing our unsurpassingly Beautiful and unimaginable Creator!”

Albeit agreeing with you that the favor of “seeing” Allah by believers could immensely be a great privilege amongst believers in Paradise, as in 54:54-55 and 75:22-23, I can’t unequivocally surmise from the Qur’anic verses that there is no better reward than that, or mention of a particular greatest reward. After all, 5:119 and 9:72, among other verses, also both mention of great victory.

Hope that clarifies my point.

Anyway thanks for sharing your views.


Regards,

Athman.


References:

[1] https://islamqa.info/en/210252

[Student]

Walekumus salaam,
Bro Hamzeh,

The Ayahs you quoted as part of the Universal Laws that include impossibility of Divine Vision is either misunderstood or irrelevant.

42:51 does not talk about Liqa (meeting) at all, it is defining the mode and medium of voice communication with God.
6:103 does not deny Vision, it denies encompassing/encircling/grasping/completely capturing God. I'm sure people who know the language can elaborate and go in depths for the difference between Liqa, Ra'a, Nazar, Basar and Idrak.

If it was completely impossible and illogical question the request (Arini) of Musa AS (desire to see Allah swt) would have been categorically put to rest once and for all as you seems to interpret. In fact, if anything the possibility of seeing is clearly depicted by a conditional answer given by Allah swt to Musa AS's request:

When Moses came for the appointment, and his Lord spoke to him, he said, ‘My Lord, show Yourself to me: let me see You!’ He said, ‘You will never see Me, but look at that mountain: if it remains standing firm, you will see Me,’ and when his Lord revealed Himself to the mountain, He made it crumble: Moses fell down unconscious. When he recovered, he said, ‘Glory be to You! To You I turn in repentance! I am the first to believe!’ 7:143

I never said "Seeing is believing", so your lengthy argument is irrelevant, unfortunately. After believing in the Unseen God it is all but natural for a true lover to long for the meeting of his beloved. You don't need an ayah for this. It's innate.

And what is a meeting without seeing? How is it even debatable in the Hereafter? There are numerous Ayahs about the meeting and the unfortunate ones are debarred from this Blissful Joy (83:15).

Brother Athman,

I would humbly present the analogy:

Suppose someone invited you to his place with great promise and sure enough he perfectly received you and honored and bestowed you with all the gifts, served you (through his servants) the most delicious dishes and exotic drinks you ever imagined and entertained you with all the comforts during your stay and after all done you're asked to leave without meeting the host. Will you still be all satisfied and content? Can you call this a meeting?

Like I said, Quran never denies hope in meeting (Liqa) with our Sublime Lord, and it never explicitly restricted the possibility of meeting (Liqa) to the Hereafter only. It is unwarranted interpretation. May Allah swt makes us all from the true followers of Ibrahim, Musa, Muhammad (Alayhimus Salaam) who all longed for His meeting.

[Student]

Salaamun Alaykum,
All,

Just found by God's grace the definition of Liqa by none other than Sir Joseph, while browsing current threads:

Please kindly note the Arabic word 'liqai' (the 'hi' simply being a pronoun) comes from the root word 'Lam-Qaf-Ya' which means to encounter, meet, see, come across, or see face to face. Many commentators unduly make use of the word 'receive' to translate 'liqai' when it is clear that the usage of this word within the Quran is specific to 'encounter' or come across 'face to face'.

Ref: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2191.30

It would be interesting to know Sir Joseph's view on this subject.

Peace!

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum

Brother Student, I would like to reply to your comments and also thank you for your response.

The Ayahs you quoted as part of the Universal Laws that include impossibility of Divine Vision is either misunderstood or irrelevant.

I'm going to re-quote them

42:51 It is not fitting for a man that Allah should speak to him except by inspiration, or from behind a veil, or by the sending of a messenger to reveal, with Allah's permission, what Allah wills: for He is Most High, Most Wise.

6:103 Vision cannot grasp Him, but His Grasp is over all vision.

Here are a couple more verses

42:11 The Creator of the heavens and the earth. He hath made for you pairs of yourselves, and of the cattle also pairs, whereby He multiplieth you. Naught is as His likeness; and He is the Hearer, the Seer.

112:04 And there is none comparable unto Him.

Personally brother until there is proof, I find them pretty clear.  Verse 42:115 clearly states that it is not befitting for any human to speak to God other than by way of Inspiration, Behind a veil/barrier, or through messengers(amongst His creation for example Angels, Gabriel Etc.). All by God's will. This is made crystal clear. There is nothing mentioning seeing the Lord directly. As a matter of fact it is straight out negated. If one cannot even speak to God only by way of a medium what does that tell you about seeing the Almighty God?

A question would remain, how would one even know when he/she see's the Lord. Anything in our realm is created. People have dreams sometimes they are good sometimes they are not. What explanation or definition would you explain God to others when God made it clear there is nothing like Him, and no vision can grasp Him.

42:51 does not talk about Liqa (meeting) at all, it is defining the mode and medium of voice communication with God.

In my humble opinion its stating that these are the forms of communication that God communicates with people. Other than that it is not befitting.

6:103 does not deny Vision, it denies encompassing/encircling/grasping/completely capturing God. I'm sure people who know the language can elaborate and go in depths for the difference between Liqa, Ra'a, Nazar, Basar and Idrak.

I agree that there is differences. Insha'Allah someone will elaborate their differences, but until then I view them as similar words used in different places to capture different messages.

If it was completely impossible and illogical question the request (Arini) of Musa AS (desire to see Allah swt) would have been categorically put to rest once and for all as you seems to interpret. In fact, if anything the possibility of seeing is clearly depicted by a conditional answer given by Allah swt to Musa AS's request:

Of course its not an illogical question brother. I hope I did not sound like I was being rude. What I said was "the readers of the Quran" should be cautioned that God's presence cannot be seen. I was just reminding that no matter what we think we can vision or what may seem to be God if that ever comes across any person(as at times I've heard that some claimed to see God), those of us who know the Quran understand it cannot be God.

Also I think from verse 7:143 from the phrase "When he recovered, he said, ‘Glory be to You! To You I turn in repentance! I am the first to believe!", it can safely be understood that after prophet Moses(pbuh) got up after he fell out of consciousness that it was until then he really believed in what was being revealed to him, as if he has some doubts. God knows best.

Also I think the request from Moses to see God is quite different from any other person who would request to see God if that person did not have a inspiration or communication to begin with.

I never said "Seeing is believing", so your lengthy argument is irrelevant, unfortunately. After believing in the Unseen God it is all but natural for a true lover to long for the meeting of his beloved. You don't need an ayah for this. It's innate.

I am assuming you are responding to this comment of mine "Although I trust you understand this Insha'Allah but some wisdom Insha'Allah from a verse is it seems that believing in God should not result in seeing God or the Angels. As the matter would be settled, and that the signs and messages around us clearly portray the truth."

As I understand that it would be a true love and great desire to understand or see the Great Lord, I was just trying to share what I felt was comforting to those like that by way of what the Quran reveals.
As I suggested that "I trust you understand" and was a comment. But anyways, I apologize for whatever way you took it.

Peace

[Hamzeh]

Asalamu 3alykum Brother Student

This thread is worth the read also kinda regarding your inquiries. Insha'Allah you find it beneficial.


Mention of ''Body parts'' of Allah in Islamic sources
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=448.0


Salam

[Student]

Walekumus salaam,
Br Hamzeh,

No, you didn't hurt my feelings at all so no need of apologies. However, I think I need to clarify couple of things as I see you misunderstood my view/belief:

• I've not raised any queries or initiated the thread. I simply forwarded my view upon solicitation.
• I've a firm belief Allah swt can be seen BEFORE OR ON THE DAY OR AFTER THE DAY in a manner He manifest Himself (27:8, 28:30) to the fortunate ones who long and strive for it, I've supported it with few Quranic verses (18:110, 29:5, 10:7) and provided you the definition of Liqa, whilst firmly believing in unlikeness of HIM in His creation and firmly believing He is beyond our imagination and description. The words/knowledge/vision cannot capture Him.

Since God remains eternal before or after, according to your interpretation we cannot ever get the joy of meeting Him (Liqa). This is clearly against many Quranic commands. Why do you've to go and explain your Vision to anyone, this seems to be your difficulty perhaps.

I'm keenly interested to know Sir Joseph's view on this subject as this is much debated and divided theological belief across and within Islamic religion. Did we blindly nodded Qaalu Bala then and would remain blind now and deprived forever?

Peace!

[Athman]

Dear Br. Student,

Salaamun Aleikum,


You share as an analogy:


“Suppose someone invited you to his place with great promise and sure enough he perfectly received you and honored and bestowed you with all the gifts, served you (through his servants) the most delicious dishes and exotic drinks you ever imagined and entertained you with all the comforts during your stay and after all done you're asked to leave without meeting the host. Will you still be all satisfied and content? Can you call this a meeting?”

I take it that this is presented in an effort to respond to my previous parting short where I said “I can’t unequivocally surmise from the Qur’anic verses that there is no better reward than that, or mention of a particular greatest reward.”


Respectfully, I can’t connect a conflict between the two views. From a Qur’anic perspective, I find it as a matter of fact that believers shall see Allah in the hereafter, in an understanding shared in my earlier post. In my humble opinion, if it is to be insisted that our great ‘desires’ have to be satisfied because Allah promises that in Paradise is whatever the soul desires, (43:71) , it still has to be appreciated that this shall be in a nature the details of which we are not aware or informed (56:61). Allah better understands our entire souls hence desires. Thus He rewards the believers in a way He deems appropriate and fit, an analogy of an earthly situation would just sound superfluous considering the Omniscience and Omnipotence of Allah with respect to His rightful power to satisfy 'desires' of His creatures or rewarding accordingly.


If the point is that seeing Allah should be the all-satisfactory and all-content final aspect of the rewarding to believers in Paradise, hence the greatest reward, then where in rank should we place that great victory mentioned by such verses as 9:72 and 5:119, among others, and how should we reach the conclusion that ‘seeing' Allah is the greatest reward/victory while that could have been selectively mentioned in 32:17 if such a notable distinction would have been deemed fit any worthy of mention?

If in any case it is the greatest reward for the believers, what is it to those deniers of that Day of "meeting" with Allah (all of mankind, 19:95, 3:9, 3:25) for Judgement given that you rightly deduce from 83:15 that they shall be barred from that 'Blissful joy' while on the other hand implying that the meeting with Allah is necessarily implicative of 'seeing' as quoted below?

"And what is a meeting without seeing? How is it even debatable in the Hereafter?"


While you kindly use 7:143 to support the idea that Moses actually did see Allah, somebody would still use the same verse to prove the contrary. For instance, one would suggest that if the condition for "seeing" Allah was the still standing of the mountain, and that the mountain was ultimately destroyed, then Moses didn't see Allah, for the mountain had not been still. In my humble perspective, that was just a worldly illustration by Allah for Moses and the entire posterity of humanity to show that the Sovereign Presence of Him doesn't fit our earthly world. After all, Moses is said to have repented after the incident. I hope the repentance could 'partly' be attributed to what just transpired as of the great earthly impossible 'desire' by Moses, which amounted to such an incident.


You respectfully share:

"...He manifest Himself (27:8, 28:30) to the fortunate ones who long and strive for it, I've supported it with few Quranic verses (18:110, 29:5, 10:7)..."

Now, if it is to be inferred from 27:8 (from your perspective) that Allah did 'physically' become manifest in that occasion, what could be the actual manifestation? The mountain in 7:143, the blessed spot - from the tree (al buq’atil mubarakati mina shajarah) in 28:30, or which other mentioned physical thing?


Regarding '(18:110, 29:5, 10:7),' the scope of the contexts is clearly comparable to that of 29:23 as I have carefully tried to share earlier as captured below:


"The former is suggestive of those disbelievers denying both signs of God and the possibility of there being a day of Resurrection when all creatures including themselves (mankind) shall be gathered (‘...the meeting with Him.’)"


You then said:


"Since God remains eternal before or after, according to your interpretation we cannot ever get the joy of meeting Him (Liqa)."


I don't think this is what has been the premise underlying Br Hamzeh's arguments nor mine. In fact "seeing" Allah is what has been asserted in my arguments above, but only in the context of re-creation in the Hereafter and explicitly by believers in Paradise. "Meeting" Allah is guaranteed for all (3:9) 17:72 doesn't imply that the disbelievers of the Day of Judgement shall not be gathered to Him
(Liqaihi) on that Day (for Judgement) just because they don't believe in it. Notwithstanding the nuance that could be derived from the use of either of  "...Liqa, Ra'a, Nazar, Basar and Idrak." as you suggest, the context in which it is used is what would essentially remain key in underpinning an underlying nuance, as Br. Hamzeh clearly intimated above.


You finally concluded:

"Did we blindly nodded Qaalu Bala then and would remain blind now and deprived forever?"


I would just kindly advise you to verify your assertions, and accord others' arguments sincere deserved considerations, before summing up your view. I think that's an unwarranted and clearly unnecessary contention to part with.

 

I hope you shall consider my views In sha Allah.




Regards,


Athman.