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Offline Athman

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Consultation For A Proper Understanding
« on: November 22, 2017, 04:06:19 PM »
As salaam Aleikum Br. Joseph,

The following verses both refer to events on the “day” of Judgement. I have a difficulty in understanding the “coming of Allah” and “bearing of Allah’s Throne by the Angels (apparently from above (on top of them))” given that I have been understanding the Throne to mean “governing of all matters of whole Universe and everything in HIS dominion.”

This is with a view not to perceive the notion of Allah on a “physical throne” nor HIS “physical coming” with a resultantly spatial constraining view.
 
Could these be treated as amongst the “ambiguous verses” or rather just clear but in an allegorical sense? Otherwise, would you shed some light on this or if you had been understanding this otherwise more precisely different. Thanks.

And the angels are at its edges. And they will bear the Throne of your Lord above them, that Day, eight [of them]. (Qur’an, Al-Haqq 69:17)

And your Lord has come and the angels, rank upon rank (Qur’an, Al-Fajr 89:22)


Regards,
Athman

Offline Athman

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Re: Consultation For A Proper Understanding
« Reply #1 on: November 22, 2017, 10:01:08 PM »
Salaam Br. Joseph,

I went through the various threads and articles and it's lucky that my issue of concern has already previously been addressed in the following thread: http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=448.0

Any further insights into that topic shall be appreciated though if any. Thanks.

Regards,

Athman.


Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Consultation For A Proper Understanding
« Reply #2 on: November 22, 2017, 11:17:48 PM »
Dear brother Athman,

Wa alaikum assalam

Welcome to the forum!

There are 2 points I feel which may support this topic and in essence, your underlying question.

I have described 'Arsh' in another thread as 'denoting God's absolute sovereignty in its widest possible remit governing all the affairs of the entire Universe.' [1]

This does not require a 'physical manifestation' of God in our cosmic space which will unduly limit the interpretation as you have quite rightly suggested, but ultimately, an interpretation of God where He has an active involvement in the governing of affairs or of a particular event directed by Him as the Greatest, Sovereign Power.

This view of 'active involvement' (not necessarily with physical presence) is supported in another thread where I share the following:

"if we note 7:54 and read 'istawa ala 'larsh' (ascended the throne) in context to the establishment of God creating the universe and the laws and taking power over it, we see it further elaborated in 13:2 with the term 'yudabbiru l-amra' (governing / disposing the affairs). I feel this gives us a strong indication of 'active involvement' [2]. Again, this does not mean that God is physically present or needs to be.

God is not restricted to time and space [3]. He has full knowledge and control over each atom in the Universe, but this does not require Him to be bound by such a limiting physical matrix. This lends into His essence of being Uncreated and Eternal.

Therefore, as you have quite rightly deduced from the article thread that you have cited, the metaphorical devices that are used in the Quran to provide a 'mathal' (an example, similitude, or parable) in the language of it's recipient must always remain the primary context underpinning any potential interpretation.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


REFERENCES:

[1] God's 'Arsh' (Throne) - What Does it Mean?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=495
[2] God's Role
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=76
[3] Divine Presence
http://quransmessage.com/charts%20and%20illustrations/time%20and%20space/timespace%20FM2.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Athman

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Re: Consultation For A Proper Understanding
« Reply #3 on: November 23, 2017, 04:07:02 PM »
As salaam Aleikum,

Shukran Br. Joseph, well articulated and argued for.

Those are valuable points indeed.


Regards,

Athman.