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Offline Athman

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Salaamun Aleikum Br. Joseph,

I trust this finds you well. I have gone through the articles below which comprehensively stand to argue for the subject in question. “Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam”


 http://quransmessage.com/articles/makkah%20bakkah%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/original%20sanctuary%20FM3.htm
http://quransmessage.com/articles/abraham%20hagar%20FM3.htm

A well-presented exposition of course, in-line with what I have been carefully observing and contending for a long-time.

My point of interest is however on the verse below where Prophet Ibrahim mentions of making some of his offspring dwell in a barren location “by The Sacred House.” Could this “Baitika Muharami/Sacred House” referred to Prophet Ibrahim  be synonymous to “Masjidul Haraam/Sacred Mosque” which is most possibly at Makkah?

"O our Lord! I have made some of my offspring to dwell in a valley without cultivation, by Thy Sacred House; in order, O our Lord, that they may establish regular prayer: so fill the hearts of some among men with love towards them, and feed them with fruits: so that they may give thanks" (Qur’an, Al-Ibrahim 14:37)

Regards,
Athman

Offline Athman

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Re: Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam
« Reply #1 on: November 24, 2017, 07:19:19 PM »
Salaam,

...Couldn’t this “Baitika Muharami/Sacred House” referred to by Prophet Ibrahim be synonymous to “Masjidul Haraam/Sacred Mosque” which is most possibly at Makkah?...

That is, with an observation to render a restrictive “haram” suffix only applicable to the House/Mosque at Makkah as appears to other references in the Qur’an where the word appears, as well cited in the quote below as part of the discourse in one of your articles above.

“...Whether this is the first house (Awwala Bayt) or the Ancient House (Bayt al-ateeq) or simply 'the house' (al-bayt), there appears to be consistent use of the term 'Bayt' without the use of 'haram'. Where Bayt and haram appear combined, the Arabian sanctuary is indicated as in 5:2 and 5:97.”

NB: I trust that “Muharrami” (that which is consecrated) and “haraam” (consecrated) could be used interchangeably.

Regards,

Athman.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam
« Reply #2 on: November 27, 2017, 04:55:33 AM »
Dear brother Athman,

Wa alaikum assalam

I would not necessarily link the verb 'Harrama' - muharram (to make sacred, holy, forbidden) to the noun 'haram' (plural - hurum), the latter - which throughout the Quran appears to be tied to the Arabian sanctuary.

Therefore, I would humbly remain cautious interpreting the precinct referenced in 14:37 as synonymous with the Arabian precinct at Makkah.

On a slightly separate note, I also find very little / no genealogical link between the Arabs during the Quran's revelation and Prophet Abraham's direct descendancy through, as often argued, Prophet Ishmael. [1]

Regards,
Joseph
 

REFERENCE:

[1] ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Athman

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Re: Interconnection between Makkah, Bacca, Qaabah, and Masjidul Haraam
« Reply #3 on: November 27, 2017, 06:17:21 PM »
Dear Br. Joseph,

As salaam Aleikum,

Thanks for the reply. My question was just in an effort to stay consistent regarding “haraam.” Otherwise, I agree with the article you referenced above.

To get it clear, is it restrictively the word form “haraam,” having consistently been used suffixedly to “Masjid/Bayt” throughout the Qur’an, which has to be understood to be making a reference to the Arabian sanctuary and that any other form of the root verb “harrama”(in this case “Muharrami”) has to be understood from other clear references and its context, or, is it that the form “Muharrami” is not of the same root letters as those of “haraam?”


To respectfully quote, you suggested the following:

“... The term 'haram' means to forbid, prevent, to make unlawful, deprive, inviolable, to be refused something or to involve some contention or wrangling. This definition is certainly consistent with many Quranic narratives where the sanctuary at Makkah became a contention between the disbelievers and the Muslims, the latter at times being forbidden from its environs.”

This clearly makes sense. Now, with the other quote below, is it right to posit that the precinct referenced in 14:37 could have some similar associated sort of initial wrangling over it, or rather had been subjected to some initial inviolability? Otherwise, what could be the correct understanding of the precinct referenced in 14:37 being Sacred/Muharrami?

“...I would not necessarily link the verb 'Harrama' - muharram (to make sacred, holy, forbidden) to the noun 'haram' (plural - hurum), the latter - which throughout the Quran appears to be tied to the Arabian sanctuary.”

Regards,

Athman.