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Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #15 on: September 10, 2018, 01:49:55 AM »
Walekumus salaam,
Dear Sir Joseph,

Indeed I'm grateful for all the forum members who share their knowledge and wisdom (spending their valuable time) in helping us understand the Quran better. Thank you for making this platform available for this sort of discussion and I totally understand and respect your preoccupation and commitments and your deliberate silence  :)

I really appreciate if you could throw light on questions that goes without answer or remain open with follow-up questions - couple of threads I initiated is looking for your help if you will ;D

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2594.msg13438#msg13438

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2592.msg13482#msg13482
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #16 on: September 10, 2018, 03:34:14 AM »
Assalamu 3alykum

Dear Br. Athman

I apologize for a wrong assumption on my behalf as I realized you did notice the theme of the verse to be that of wisdom and foreknowledge.  :)

Quote
After all, the narration here captures the incident while progressing on a particular theme, not the theme of ‘justified killing’ per se but that of 'wisdom and foreknowledge' granted to some of God’s chosen servants (72:26-27).

Dear Br. Student

You should read this brilliant article(Masha'Allah) below[1] as I really think it will help you to determine if the dream of prophet Abraham(pbuh) was from the Almighty God or not and will aid you Insha'Allah to understand how at times prophets and messengers may of received inspiration.

You will notice that possibly even they had to discern at times between inspirations that they received. Were the inspiration from the Almighty Lord or the whispers of the evil ones? (May The Almighty Lord protect us from the evil ones Insha'Allah)

For example even prophet Muhammad(pbuh) was asked not to doubt what is being revealed to him.

10:94 So if you are in doubt, [O Muhammad], about that which We have revealed to you, then ask those who have been reading the Scripture before you. The truth has certainly come to you from your Lord, so never be among the doubters.

However its clear that Gods messages will always be established despite the strategies of the evil ones.

22.52 "And We did not send a messenger or a prophet before you, but, when he desired, Satan threw (proposed / suggested) something into his desire: but God abolishes what Satan throws (proposes / suggests) and God will confirm (and establish) His signs / verses. And God is All-Knower, All-Wise”

Hope that helps Insha'Allah


Dear Br. Joseph

Its always a pleasure to hear from you :). May God bless you and your family as well.

Asalamu 3alykum


[1]HOW DID GOD'S AGENTS (PROPHETS & MESSENGERS) RECEIVE INSPIRATIONS?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/inspiration%20FM3.htm

Offline Athman

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #17 on: September 10, 2018, 04:03:42 AM »
Dear Student,

Peace,

You say:

"However, I'm still not convinced why God being God could/would not ask to lay one's life or one's loved ones life in order to test."

From my humble view, I encounter a theological impasse where God is said to have unjustifiably sanctioned an 'evil' action, which He heavily detests and prohibits due to His infinite mercy (4:29, 6:12), in the name of a mere 'trial.' A soul (nafs) is said to be 'sacred' and taking it should only be for a just course - wala taqtulu nafsa al-lati harramallaha illa bilhaqi (6:151).

You again ask:

"Are we not restricting God's realm (Nauzubillah) of what He can and cannot ask? God in His infinite knowledge and wisdom would have intervened and stopped it."

Respectfully, no true believer can even think of a limit to God's infinite capacity. However, as believers, we understand God's essence and qualities from what is informed of us in the Qur'an. Ascribing to God things that would conflict with how we understand about Him would be unjustifiable.

Acknowledging that God would have 'stopped' a certain evil undertaking given His infinite knowledge and wisdom is in essence agreeing to the fact that nothing would have been justifying that particular undertaking for Him to intervene. However, in His infinite wisdom, God would still qualify a particular seemingly morally unethical undertaking for it to even be instructed as of a 'test' or "legal law." I earlier on shared the following, " 'legal laws' always guide objective morality." In this case, not only is the alleged 'killing' command unqualified but also, nothing specific is cited as being proved nor is any particular truth being attested to/manifested. Appealing to a test of faith in Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) appears inconclusive.

It is then said:

"So, my humble understanding is 
The dream was from God Himself to test Ibrahim AS to the point of sacrifice and not to allow the sacrifice itself (this doesn't conflict with 5:32 or associating anything immoral with God)
"

The ascription of an immorality aspect to God is not the issue here, we do have objective morality after all. Certain legal injunctions would a times not feel palatable to some people. This is not an issue though. To believers, religious legal laws always supersede our worldviews. Nonetheless, the contention is on the unqualified instruction to 'kill,' no matter if the actual action was later intervened.

You share:

"The sacrificial son was Ishaaq ASThis way not only does Quran corrects Biblical narrative but it also confirms it. The dream was never a command to kill or a sacrifice as a religious rite (for Ibrahim AS and posterity) and was never meant to be of that nature."

You are right that the dream was never to be interpreted as God's 'command' that would give rise to a religious rite nor was it to be in the nature of 'actual slaughtering.' However it is argued that it was not even to be interpreted as a command from God, in the first place.

You then say:

"It was a mere test from God, otherwise it's hard to swallow as to how Ibrahim AS being a person of immense rationality would go this far to slaughter his son on a mere non-Divine or obscure dream."

It was truly a 'manifest trial' yes, but only in the sense that Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) and Prophet Isaac (pbuh) had 'submitted in purpose' that it was from God and that they were about to actually undertake such a grave action.

You conclude:

"The words of Ismael AS ""O my father, do as you're commanded" is a strong indicator of the source/story he heard from his father."

From my humble view, the son's (pbuh) captured utterances in the verse (37:102) only support the notion that he submitted in purpose to what was thought of to be a command from God. Though the Qur'an supports the idea that a times 'dream visions' could be from God (48:27, 8:43), in 22:52, God ascertains to the fact that Satan's whispers could also challenge His prophets. However, He confirms inspirations from Him and abolishes Satan's whispers.

"And We did not send before you any messenger or prophet except that when he spoke [or recited], Satan threw into it [some misunderstanding]. But Allah abolishes that which Satan throws in; then Allah makes precise His verses. And Allah is Knowing and Wise." (Qur'an, Al-Hajj 22:52)

In summary, my main contention would be:

If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?

Regards,
Athmani.

Offline Athman

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #18 on: September 10, 2018, 04:21:44 AM »
As-salaam alaikum,

Dear Hamzeh,

It is my pleasure seeing that you were resonating a similar sentiment in your last comments. As for your first one, it was even better you re-highlighted that argument.


Dear Br. Joseph,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for the acknowledgement and space granted. May Allah shower His blessings and grace upon you and your family too insha Allah.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #19 on: September 10, 2018, 01:08:31 PM »
Dear Athman,
Peace on you as well,

It's not from God simply because it's "unethical and evil" so may I what/who's the source of the dream in your understanding?
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Athman

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #20 on: September 10, 2018, 09:54:00 PM »
Dear Student,

Peace,

With all due respect, I am quite baffled that with the arguments presented hitherto in response to your contentions, you cast my humble position to that of a ‘simplicity’ undertone.

You contend:

"It's not from God simply because it's "unethical and evil" so may I what/who's the source of the dream in your understanding?"

Honestly, I do recognize the seriousness of the incident and its derived sensibilities amongst Muslims which basically stem from individuals’ own theological leans. This is why my shared humble thoughts appear as above.

As regards to what God ‘can’ do or not do, you may agree with me that you and I have once been through a similar discussion [1] in which we never reached an agreement. Therefore, I’m kindly inclined to make this discussion not pursue that route. It does seem that from your theological lean, God does anything. In the main, albeit I somehow basically agree with you on this, I do admit that we actually don’t share a common ground for the notions held [1]. I think this is our main point of theological disparity which if not bridged, I am afraid that we mutually can't go on an any constructive discussion. We can as such just agree to disagree on issues pertaining to our theological leans. You can refer to my basic understanding of ‘capability’ in the context of God in a thread [2] below.

From my humble perspective, as a particular example in this case, God does not instruct immorality/evil/excessive sin (fahishatan) (7:28).

And when they commit an immorality (fahishatan), they say, ‘We found our fathers doing it, and Allah has ordered us to do it.’ Say, ‘Indeed, Allah does not order immorality (la ya’muru bil fahshai). Do you say about Allah that which you do not know?’ ” (Qur’an, Al-A’raf 7:28)

In contrast, Satan does whisper evil (2:268).

Satan threatens you with poverty and orders you to immorality (wa ya’murukum bil fahshai), while Allah promises you forgiveness from Him and bounty. And Allah is all-Encompassing and Knowing.” (Qur’an, Al-Baqarah 2:268)

To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).

Dear Br. Student, my contention still remains:

(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?

In addition;

(2). If it is asserted that it was God who commanded the sacrifice via the ‘dream vision,’ can one unambiguously point out particularly where in the Qur’an?

Regards,
Athman.


REFERENCES:

[1]. seeing  allah in jannah

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2421.msg12889#msg12889
[2]. Can God create another God like himself if he wanted to
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2576.msg13355#msg13355

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #21 on: September 11, 2018, 03:50:28 AM »
Salaamun Alayka
Br Athman,

I apologize as I never meant to convey you didn't took seriousness/sensibility of the incident. Let me clear few things again:

  • I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
  • I generally seek clarification on things that aren't clear to me even after thoroughly reading Sir Jospeh's article and all relevant threads (I must admit my search failed me more than once to yield good result, the thread you shared [Jazak Allah Khair :)]  sealed the deal for me as far as main query: Isaac vs Ismaeel (PBUT) and I humbly believe Sir Jospeh's article needs this point included: Verse 37:109 even recognises specific salutations on Prophet Abraham for his trial, however there is no mention whatsoever of Prophet Ishmael
  • I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God
  • I am here as a humble student of the Quran befitting my user/profile name , not other way around :)

As far as other things, I completely concur with you/your arguments on Reference #2 and on Reference#1, I made my argument and left the discussion seeking Sir Joseph's view on the subject quoting his understanding and definition of Liqa....whether or not he applies & extend it consistently to this subject.....still waiting  :)

This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?

Quote
To ascertain His orders/commands, Allah always confirms them (22:52) over Satan’s, for His will always prevail (58:21). In Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case, while God intercedes a possible Satan’s guile for a concession (37:107), He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice). However, the piety/reverence/submissiveness (taqwa) portrayed by Prophet Ibrahim (pbuh) is acknowledged and rewarded (37:105) as is always (22:37).

I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity.

If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?
  • Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?
  • What was the original dream before Satan's corruption? In your words: He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice) - what was God's original will in this whole incident?
  • Why did God allow satanic inspiration to the point of slaughtering?
  • Why didn't God correct the corrupted story of OT in the Quran and allowed to remain ambiguous for dual interpretation?
  • Did Quran say they "submitted in purpose" or simply"submitted"?
  • If the command was from Satan and not God as captured in OT, why Quran only corrected the direct command part and said it was a dream without mentioning the source (which was implied in Ismaeel's words as is the style of Quran)?
  • When Christian Monks took upon themselves celibacy Quran not only mentions it but corrected it saying God never imposed but allowed it - why did God not say the similar to Ibrahim AS or addressing us saying Ibrahim associated it to Us while it wasn't from Me or something of that sort?
  • Lastly, in Sir Joseph's words Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.

    'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it”  (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.

    Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the source of the command (being divine & direct) to Ibrahim AS?
    ?

Quote
(1). If it is to be understood that God can instruct 'anything' including evil/unethical things in the sense unjustifiably for purposes of tests, with the condition that it would otherwise be intervened, can one cite at least a single unequivocal instance of such a possibility from the Qur'an to substantiate such a claim?
You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?

Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours. 

Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box  :D

In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.
Thanks,
~ Student

Offline Duster

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #22 on: September 11, 2018, 05:57:14 PM »
Shalom / peace Student...

Just one point to comment on ...

You keep mentioning brother Joseph mentioning the Quran confirming the Bible but he has always provided context for it.

If he says Isaac was the boy to be sacrificed but the vision was not from Allah YOU MAY SAY why is the Quran not confirming the source of the vision which in the Bible is from God

But if he said Ishmael was the boy to be sacrificed and Allah did send the vision (Like you believe I assume), then STILL The Quran will not be confirming the Bible as the Bible says the boy was Isaac....

So the point is that the Quran will always be confirming and correcting the Bible when it sees fit....

Brother Joseph also mentions clearly in his articles that the Quran also corrects the Bible when it's appropriate

Quote
There are many examples in the Quran where the narratives seem to correct an existing 'Biblical' understanding. For example, 1 Kings 11 describes Prophet Solomon (pbuh) straying into idolatry.

http://quransmessage.com/articles/harut-marut%20FM3.htm

So clearly in this instance, brother Joseph's view is that the Quran is confirming the boy to be sacrificed as that being the same as the Bible but not confirming explicitly that the vision was from Allah. I don't see the problem in this position......

And let us not forget ...... that nothing can happen without Allah's will ... so even if a Satanic whisper or dream got to a person, Allah would have allowed it as Satan can't do anything of his own will. No one in the Universe and beyond can ......
 



Offline Athman

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #23 on: September 11, 2018, 11:12:34 PM »
Dear Br. Student,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Without overlooking what has been shared by Br. Duster (Jazakallah for the contribution), see my responses below.

You say:

"I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God"

Originally, you said, I quote “...passage seems to clearly implies it was from God as I see it

In my opinion, the follow-up phrases you cited were earlier aptly responded to by Br. Duster, to which I feel you haven’t given a befitting rebuttal. See my response below to your question “Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?

"I did not raise question on 2nd part of the story at all - whether the command was/wasn't from God"

Kindly refer to my response to your question ‘1.’ above please.

"I am here as a humble student of the Quran befitting my user/profile name , not other way around  "

Nor is anyone claiming to be a teacher dear brother. We all are students of the Qur’an which, in the main, should be the criterion (teacher for that matter) as God’s word in our midst - the Prophet (pbuh) is not here to rest authority over a particular position on certain issues (16:44). Therefore, please, let’s keep the discussions. Where we seem not to reconcile, let’s just simply agree to disagree.


"This is exactly what I wanted to see as an answer to my question (rephrasing here): Whom/what do you think the source of the dream was?"

My response was given above to which you even expressed some little conviction as quoted below.


"I must admit the answer is more convincing than all those lengthy discussions...however I'm still not 100% convinced it wasn't from God simply because I don't see/take this command as an evil/unethical/immoral at all. It was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity."

Respectfully, I find it strange that you seem to expect short responses yet some of your comments appear much protracted like this one which has covered other acutely unrelated topics below. One can’t always have set pet replies that address specific subjects. Even where there is, elaborations are essential since different people could interpret a particular verse differently given their theological backgrounds, lines of thought, information so far accessed, etc. Anyways, you may choose to pass over some if you feel obliged to.

Being seemingly evil or not, the contention is that it was not from God (6:151, 4:29, 5:32). You haven't either substantiated your claim that it "was a momentary but momentous test for a lesson for believers captured in OT and Quran for posterity"


If you still disagree with that argument then how would you explain the following?


Did Quran say the dream was from Satan?

With due respect, I see this as actually a case of shifting the burden of proof. The original position is that it was just a dream that was never meant to be interpreted as a command from God. Now, if your response is on the affirmative as regards whether the command in the dream was from God, you are the one to prove it. As for the dream in itself as a dream (inherently), I think Br. Duster clarified above. Even if somethings is as a result of Satan’s whispers, God is the ultimate Decreer of its manifestation. Now, this doesn’t amount to ‘it was from God.’

What was the original dream before Satan's corruption? In your words: He makes prevail His will (no actual sacrifice) - what was God's original will in this whole incident?

I didn’t say that there was an ‘original will’ of God nor an ‘original dream.’ I just meant that the ‘decision’ made out of the dream was never approved by God and therefore, this (disapproval) was actually actioned through preventing it (the sacrifice) happening.

Why did God allow satanic inspiration to the point of slaughtering?

As believers, I don’t think it is appropriate for us to question God why He does decree things at certain points of time and not others. The basic and vital understanding is that He actually does such and such things, no matter where and when. For that matter, one could even ask as to why God allowed Prophet Yusuf (pbuh) to get to the verge of being given into his Master’s wife (wahamma biha) where he was ‘shown’ his Lord’s proof (12:24).

Why didn't God correct the corrupted story of OT in the Quran and allowed to remain ambiguous for dual interpretation?

For the sake of the discussion, I would be more inclined to ask as to why God would even cite Prophet Isa’s (pbuh) verbatim mentioning the Prophet (pbuh) by his name (Ahmad) in the Qur’an (61:6) whereas it was never captured in any historical manuscript before in that form. As a result, ‘multiple’ interpretations are made and read into the Bible by Muslim apologetics. See also Br. Duster’s citation of Br. Joseph’s argument in another thread above.

Anyways, as a believer, I do find respite in 5:15.

O People of the Scripture, there has come to you Our messenger making clear to you much of what you used to hide of the scripture and overlooking much (waya’fu ‘an kathirin)...” (Qur’an, Al-Ma’idah 5:15)

Did Quran say they "submitted in purpose" or simply"submitted"?

Now, this seems to be an act of academic dishonesty on your part. It appears odd denouncing/dismissing this position while you actually used the same interpretation earlier when you vouched for a particular understanding. I quote:

Why can’t we interpret the dream was shown from God (as a lesson for posterity) to demonstrate Ibrahim’s AS true love & devotion in purpose and never in actuality as in His knowledge God would have intervened the slaughter anyway?

After all, the word is ‘aslama’ literally ‘submitted.’ In this case, it would mean that they had ‘mutually agreed on a particular decision into something.’ Purely with the term ‘submitted,’ one would say ‘in purpose’ or ‘submitted unanimously into it’ just with a view to get an appropriate meaning/best interpretation. 

If the command was from Satan and not God as captured in OT, why Quran only corrected the direct command part and said it was a dream without mentioning the source (which was implied in Ismaeel's words as is the style of Quran)?

af’alu ma tu’maru’ - ‘do as you are commanded’ still has to do with the ‘aslama’ (a unanimous decision into carrying out the sacrifice). In fact, this is the only place in the narration that points to the fact that both (Prophet Ibrahim and his son (pbut)) had mistaken the dream to be a command from God. However, the ‘aslama’ in this context should not necessarily be translated as ‘submission’ to God’s command rather, a ‘unanimous decision/submission’ into something (carrying out the sacrifice).

When Christian Monks took upon themselves celibacy Quran not only mentions it but corrected it saying God never imposed but allowed it - why did God not say the similar to Ibrahim AS or addressing us saying Ibrahim associated it to Us while it wasn't from Me or something of that sort?

Again, this is another acutely inconsistent analogy if assessed carefully. While Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) case is that of submission into mistaken God’s command (not of personal ‘volition’), the ‘Christian monks’ monasticism was a matter of ‘volition’ to seek God’s approval - not done as a ‘command’ from God though (57:27). Kindly see also my response below to your ‘Purpose of creation’ argument for this issue of ‘volition.’

Lastly, in Sir Joseph's words Furthermore, the Quran often states that it is also a 'confirmation' (musaddiq) of the previous scriptures, certainly implying the overlap of narratives and the theological understanding prevalent during the Prophetic ministry amongst the People of the Book.

'tasdiq' – “but it is a confirmation of what is before it”  (10:37); 'musaddiq' – “that I have sent down, confirming that which is with you” (2:41), et al.

Therefore, one may ask the valid question whether the Quran was confirming the prevalent views of the Jewish and Christian communities with regards the source of the command (being divine & direct) to Ibrahim AS??

Actually, you can relate this contention to the response given by Br. Duster above.

You may find parallel in the grand scheme/purpose of creation (creation of Satan and his progeny as they're and Adam and his progeny as we're) - isn't creation of Satan and allowing him to mislead mankind to the brim of Hell more evil (Nauzubillah) than a father's test of love and loyalty?

Respectfully, what you cite is relatively an orthogonal instance of an event to that one under discussion. Firstly, I actually find this approach of yours one that casts God into the similitude of His creation. Secondly, as I shared earlier, as believers, we do restrictively understand God from what is said about Him in the Scriptures. Other than that, it is just ‘speculative’ thoughts. We can thus not claim to fully grasp the wisdom behind the vast ‘grand scheme’ of creation other than what is pointed out to us in scripture.

Now, particularly on the above incident;

1). God did not inherently create beings evil/wicked

2). God did not order ‘Iblis’ to resort to wickedness or vow to mislead humankind (7:16-17)

This whole narrative revolves around ‘free will’ or rather ‘volition’ (15:32-40).

To start with, God seldom does intervene to prevent an evil act intended at ‘voluntarily’ from taking place. ‘Volition’ is a great virtue that is entrusted to some of His creation. It is this same ‘virtue’ that shall mainly be the standard upon which we shall be judged. This is left for that Day (of Recompense).

Therefore, for a sin committed, a befitting recompense awaits one in the Hereafter and thus, God is not obliged to prevent it from transpiring, only for where He wishes. As a result, while Iblis’s vow and pledge was purely out of ‘volition,’ Prophet Ibrahim’s (pbuh) decision was mistaken for Allah’s command. These are completely two different unrelated scenarios.


Your explanation of 18:74 is still unsatisfactory from ordinary human and even from a great Prophet's perspective and to your own standard of "justified killing", regardless of theme killing an innocent boy is still shocking and an event of mocking God for the atheist and disbelievers alike for the same reason as yours. 

As regards 18:74, on my part, I don’t find a need to explain it any other way when the verses (18:80-81) are clear on what justified such a ‘killing.’

...and we feared he would overburden them (his parents) with transgression (thwughyanan) and disbelief (kufran). So we wanted their Lord to replace him with someone better in purity, and closer to mercy.” (Qur’an, Al-Kahf 18:80-81)


Other than that, we can never get the ‘full’ picture of the ‘future’ (3:179) of the boy nor get privy to the remit of the set of parameters upon which God made such an order. These are matters of ‘ghayb’ which we can’t fully fathom (10:20, 6:59).


Seeing this conundrum people like br Wakas are forced to interpret the whole event completely out of box   


In the end we're all good Alhumdulillah, those who see it as evil disassociate it from God and those (like me) in the grand scheme of things doesn't necessarily see it as an evil at all but a test (2:155) for ordinary and direct and severe for extra-ordinary like Ibrahim AS.


Respectfully, as a student of the Qur’an and more importantly as a believer, albeit I admit that we can simply agree to disagree on some issues, I don’t think we should rest our sincere academic viewpoints on the perceptions of ‘good.’ This is especially if we assert that our views are purely qur’anic.

In conclusion, dear brother Student, can I kindly ask you to please provide proof from the Qur’an for the claims in those two questions I raised above. The burden of proof is on you and not me, Br. Joseph, or any other one who holds the position I do regarding the topic at hand. You seem to dismiss or rather not rebut responses made to you as regards your contentions. In my opinion, you have also hitherto not given any unambiguous qur’anic reference to back up your claims. Instead, you reply with additional questions each time you comment without defending your previous ones. This is unwarranted in my opinion.

With all due respect, if you can’t provide any references for your claimed position above, may I kindly end our discussion here. Possibly, Br. Joseph (to whom you originally solicited his opinion) and other members can proceed with the discussion.


Regards,
Athman.

Offline Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #24 on: September 12, 2018, 12:45:05 AM »
Thanks a lot dear Athman and Duster for your responses.

I used the words "in purpose" to counter an argument I did not think it as an academic dishonesty but using their choice of words as a line of argument.

Quote
‘af’alu ma tu’maru’ - ‘do as you are commanded’ still has to do with the ‘aslama’ (a unanimous decision into carrying out the sacrifice). In fact, this is the only place in the narration that points to the fact that both (Prophet Ibrahim and his son (pbut)) had mistaken the dream to be a command from God. However, the ‘aslama’ in this context should not necessarily be translated as ‘submission’ to God’s command rather, a ‘unanimous decision/submission’ into something (carrying out the sacrifice).
This is where I think I'm missing much needed Arabic grammar and so until that point if/when I acquire the skills I would rather not allege a great Prophet of a mistake especially when both Quran and OT (Ahada-huma) remained silent despite enormous time and opportunity to correct the two major adherents of their misunderstanding and also when Quran did not miss opportunity to point/correct many Prophets of their mistake. This is where as you said repeatedly, we agree to disagree  :)

Let's end the discussion here.

Mashallah you're blessed with knowledge, wisdom and debate skill and I'm assuming you're also gifted with knowledge of Arabic language - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D
Thanks,
~ Student

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Re: Ismaeel or Ishaaq (PBUT)
« Reply #25 on: September 12, 2018, 01:03:57 AM »
I forgot to qualify my end note:

With a view to discern the truth - it would be interesting and a pleasure to follow any debate you may differ on any subject with Sir Joseph  :D
Thanks,
~ Student