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Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #15 on: April 13, 2019, 02:35:40 PM »
Asalamu 3alykum

33:59 O Prophet, tell your wives and your daughters and the women of the believers to bring down over themselves [part] of their outer garments. That is more suitable that they will be known and not be abused. And ever is Allah Forgiving and Merciful.

It is worth to mention that this verse has been revealed to the prophet to tell only his wives, daughters and the believing women to draw over themselves their clothing so that they are not abused, or troubled.

This verse is surrounded by verses where there is abuse/insults being spread or said about God, the prophet, believing men and believing women. There is no instruction to fight against such insults as the only punishment is one that is deferred to another life(33:57-58).

However there is a threat from God that if and only if the hypocrites do not stop inciting hatred and false rumours against the believers which could cause corruption and disturbance in a land and the killing of innocent people then God will grant victory to the believers by way of fighting(33:60-61)

So that being said there is nothing to suggest to me that the word "yu'dhayna" in verse 33:59 means molesting. As this would directly be an act of severe transgression, rape, or violence and would arguably result in immediate retaliation and one that is just as bad or even worse than what is happening in 33:60-61.

The verse above does give guidance to those who are God conscious and who seek to be chaste married or unmarried on how to dress and not be troubled or insulted by the disbelievers or anyone.

Interesting. It says "women of the believers" as well

Yes, I agree with modest/decent dressing for both and that it is not a "protection" against harm.

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Well true muslims should not give off that impression and I'm sure they understand women and men have desires and it is well known from the Quran that a man and women can fall into sin not juts a man. (24:2). Another example is in the story of prophet Joseph and the wife of the king.

Yes, I mentioned that example in another post. It should definitely be quoted more in my opinion. Especially because she was a married woman.

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Regardless of where this was rooted from, a person man or women who desires to be a believer and seek to abide by the laws of God will know that God strongly condemns adultery/sin (24:2).

Those who are Muslim men and think because of their urges they are able to commit adultery/sin are only fooling themselves.

However we also have to admit that adultery/fornication is not the same as a marriage bond. This needs to be appreciated. If a women has urges then they must commit to a marriage bond which has rules. Like wise for a man.

Of course! In my second post at the top, I showed a justification that was given for polygyny as a sort of protection from "inclination to sin", which is not just a male problem in the first place.
Patience, resposibility, self-constraint and control. How would it be a test otherwise?

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I'll take your word for it

It's not just my word. You can even google this. There are also women who are frustrated because of their male partner's "low libido". Not everyone is the same.

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There is times where a man or a women cannot find marriage and God instructs them to be patient 24:33 no matter how great the appetite for sexual relations are.

Therefore the permissibility for polygyny is not so much only to satisfy ones needs. There is wider wisdom possibly only known to the Lord Himself.

I'm more inclined to agree with this or that there is a more benefitical reason for the permissibility.

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I'm sure some do not do it because they understand it hurts their families in days like today. But is it right to twist the words of God and try to some how ban it?

And maybe men who just don't want it?

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We men are also possibly puzzled because we know that it hurts some of our wives and daughters and mothers. We see their curiosity as to why. But what do we do? Ban it, forbid it?
As I’m sure you will appreciate that we are believers of the Quran and accepted the Quran's veracity and believe the origin of the Quran to be from the Lord. Just because we are not able to fathom or comprehend the reason behind why God has allowed polygany for a man, we cannot simply forbid it or sweeten the message to the liking of others which I've noticed muslim men have tried to do at certain points. 

I did not "ban" it. There are, however, other interpretations too, also ones which take orphans into account.
My main problem is the fact that some men seem to think it's okay to marry for sex/looks or the idea that men struggle far more. Also, because a verse says that the Prophet Muhammad (pbuh) was forbidden to marry more women even if their "beauty" pleased him, it apparently somehow applies to all believing men and is a sound reason for polygyny? I don't understand this interpretation/reasoning. I also don't want to believe that God acknowledges men's sexuality more and how some generalize all men as being "naturally" polygamous..

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Todays world is changing fast. As always it changes in different directions all the time. From good to bad, from bad to good, or whatever roots the people choose.

It could be argued that this life is not always so pleasant and calm and will never be a heavenly abode, and the events that have unfolded in the past or will unfold in the future will possibly carry the answers to such questions and why God has chosen these rights to whatever of His creation. He encompasses all things. There does seem from a historic standpoint that women were not always against polygany so much as to how women are today. Was there something that caused or led it to be acceptable to some point? or was it a need in the world? Will it happen again?

Just some thoughts I ask myself.

God knows best.

I have also wondered that perhaps this "ruling" was not always there.

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As believing men we need to understand these questions also. Its our duty to try to share as best as possible the message of God to our sisters, wives, mothers, etc. and vice versa.

We need to understand that women are going to be somewhat saddened and not comprehend as to why God has allowed it and we men will also possibly not understand its comprehension as well.

Insha'Allah other ladies would comment and give their views as well, and please do not think we are against you but take it as we also have thought about it and just sharing to what we understand best.

Peace

I know there are good and understanding men out there who want to listen.... at least, I try to believe so.

I might also just be tired of having to defend Islam to others and myself over and over.

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God knows best

True.

Peace.

Offline Duster

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #16 on: April 13, 2019, 03:17:53 PM »
Shalom peace brothers Athman / Hamzeh ....I just want to say that I have a lot of respect for you both ...on the forum ....Although my views haven't changed regarding this topic because I haven't seen no reason to given the types of tired arguments and questions being raised ...>>>- I do respect and appreciate your advice .... Thanks.

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #17 on: April 13, 2019, 04:16:03 PM »
Yes, of course you have "respect" for the men. :) I recommend you stay away from the women's section if it triggers you so much.

Offline Duster

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #18 on: April 13, 2019, 04:20:57 PM »
No I just have respect for those who have a reasoned mind like the two I mentioned... I'm assuming they are men ...never met them ... could be anyone behind the keyboard ..... >>>>I have no respect for tired pathetic questions and arguments based on some twisted lefty ideological crappy attitude.... Improve your arguments if you want respect ...Just to let you know .....I wouldn't have a problem respecting a 'good' argument even if it comes from a monkey..  ....and no I don't take orders from you ... I'll go on whatever part of the this forum I want ....Keep your advice to yourself ... whoever you are...

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #19 on: April 13, 2019, 04:26:48 PM »
You were triggered from your very first response. :) And your arguments/points were useless and a deflection anyway. Stay away from the women's section if it triggers your fragile masculinity. It's as simple as that.

Offline Duster

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #20 on: April 13, 2019, 04:31:05 PM »
My mistake was giving you any time to respond to your questions .... it wasn't my responses .. but your useless questions ... Once again ... who are you to tell me to stay away from this section? If you don't like the responses .. you leave .... HOW DARE YOU tell me what to do !!! I ain't going to roll over to your feminist attitudes ....

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #21 on: April 13, 2019, 04:32:12 PM »
 ::)

Salaam.

Offline QM Moderators Team

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #22 on: April 13, 2019, 04:34:42 PM »
Duster & ShatteredEmblem

Please kindly refrain from any further references or responses to each other from this point onwards on this thread.

Personal attacks or 'triggers' will not be accepted no matter who it is from.

Thanks!

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #23 on: April 13, 2019, 04:38:01 PM »
Happy to oblige  :)

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #24 on: April 13, 2019, 05:23:40 PM »
Salaam all,

As a woman myself, I  can understand the frustration regarding certain Muslim countries and the seemingly 'normalised' culture of some men ogling at and groping women, even those who are wearing very conservative attire.

This type of behaviour has absolutely no place at all in Islam and men of this faith should be more careful of how they interact with the opposite gender.

ShatteredEmblem mentioned Egypt for example, a place where there is a prevalence of highly inappropriate behaviour, even towards women who are almost covered from head to toe.

This does not mean that the directive for them to cover is not working, in my opinion, it is due to a total lack of general respect towards women that some men seem to have and is has become entrenched as 'the norm'. I think that the men here need to be taught how to conduct themselves in public and maybe a media campaign with input from clergy is a much needed step in the right direction.

However I also feel that the Quran and it's directives should be heeded to and whereas there is equality for both genders when it comes to our Creator, in society there are different roles assigned to us. God who created us knows our urges and weaknesses and it is with that in mind that we see a greater emphasis placed on women when it comes to covering.

If both genders took on their roles responsibly, then we can have a more decent environment to function in. Both men and women should guard their modestly and lower their gaze. I feel that many people overlook this in particular because it actually has so many nuances to it. There is human nature and then there is a directive given to us to try to keep this in check and not behave like animals!

I do feel that men in general are more 'sexualised' than women and I really feel that we ought to acknowledge this. Of course both genders have urges and desires but as far as I am concerned, men are tuned in to this much more.That is why I feel for myself , that I should dress modestly and cover up, because I feel more safe not to be glared at in certain places where men's eyes seem to wonder.


In some aspects of our lives, inevitably there will be different tests because we are in fact different. :)

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #25 on: April 13, 2019, 06:10:34 PM »

ShatteredEmblem mentioned Egypt for example, a place where there is a prevalence of highly inappropriate behaviour, even towards women who are almost covered from head to toe.

This does not mean that the directive for them to cover is not working, in my opinion, it is due to a total lack of general respect towards women that some men seem to have and is has become entrenched as 'the norm'. I think that the men here need to be taught how to conduct themselves in public and maybe a media campaign with input from clergy is a much needed step in the right direction.

Salaam,

Yes, I think it's a lack of respect towards women in general. If you only respect someone/their boundaries based on their clothes, then it's not really respect. If you watch the video, you'll see the mentality of the harassers and how clothing to them does not really matter.
I personally think it is not working, or at least not everywhere. I mean, even near God's house..
It may work in the west though (not against Islamophobia) because certain types of Muslim men seem to respect women in headscarves/abaya more than those without.

I think a lot of Muslims in the west are ignorant of or don't acknowledge what women in the east go through. Or even women in some Muslim households in the west.

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In some aspects of our lives, inevitably there will be different tests because we are in fact different. :)

Yep.

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I do feel that men in general are more 'sexualised' than women and I really feel that we ought to acknowledge this. Of course both genders have urges and desires but as far as I am concerned, men are tuned in to this much more.That is why I feel for myself , that I should dress modestly and cover up, because I feel more safe not to be glared at in certain places where men's eyes seem to wonder.

I feel that sociey has also shaped men in general into believing this is the case ..

Do you wear the headscarf?

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Both men and women should guard their modestly and lower their gaze

Agreed. :)

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #26 on: April 13, 2019, 08:10:23 PM »
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I agree when you mention that some people in the West are unaware of the extent of harassment that women can receive in certain majority Muslim countries.I must stress 'certain' as other places seem to be in balance so I am not sure what is behind the cultural mindset of those offending countries.

For things like this to happen in Makkah is truly outrageous but remember that it is frequented by so many different nationals who seem to bring their own cultural baggage with them. Being a Holy sanctuary doesn't seem to deter the many thieves that lurk about and steal whilst pilgrims are praying and worshipping!

So again it comes down to personal responsibility and really looking at what the faith commands of you as a servant of God. Sadly many people only focus on certain aspects of faith for example strictly consuming only halal meat, yet might think its okay to watch x rated movies.

Regarding men being more sexualised than women, I am not sure that society can be blamed for it as such because men do actually 'think' differently in this department and this is well know and documented.

I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

I do cover my hair, with a headscarf or hats depending on where I am going as I like to be flexible but still cover :)

Offline AQL

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #27 on: April 14, 2019, 01:59:40 AM »
Dear ShatteredEmblem,

I agree when you mention that some people in the West are unaware of the extent of harassment that women can receive in certain majority Muslim countries.I must stress 'certain' as other places seem to be in balance so I am not sure what is behind the cultural mindset of those offending countries.

For things like this to happen in Makkah is truly outrageous but remember that it is frequented by so many different nationals who seem to bring their own cultural baggage with them. Being a Holy sanctuary doesn't seem to deter the many thieves that lurk about and steal whilst pilgrims are praying and worshipping!

So again it comes down to personal responsibility and really looking at what the faith commands of you as a servant of God. Sadly many people only focus on certain aspects of faith for example strictly consuming only halal meat, yet might think its okay to watch x rated movies.

Regarding men being more sexualised than women, I am not sure that society can be blamed for it as such because men do actually 'think' differently in this department and this is well know and documented.

I do cover my hair, with a headscarf or hats depending on where I am going as I like to be flexible but still cover :)

I do think that Muslims should start looking at their own countries and fixing their own problems instead of just blaming/focusing on the west..

Of course culture can play a part in it, but if some people hold the belief that only fully clothed women are worthy of respect because God commands women to cover, then their view of religion plays a part, imo.

I personally think society in general has definitely contributed to the hypersexual aspect of it. Men are usually not taught the same level of shame, modesty and decency as women. That the idea of being shameful/shy should also apply to them. Girls, especially in Muslim households, often have more restrictions put on them. Men are often able to express themselves more openly, not judged as much, more explicit content is geared towards men, not blamed for promoting indecency as much as women, there is more objectification of women's bodies..
In mainstream Islam, men are "enticed" with the idea of multiple wives, sex slaves, hoor al ayn.. if this isn't sexualizing their minds then what is?
The fact that men can get away with such nastiness even near the Kabah just shows the leniency (lack of a better word) of society towards men..

I have seen the double standards also on social media. For example, with Pakistani actresses. When an actress shows some skin, there will be so many awful and nasty comments about her but if a Pakistani actor poses shirtless or in a vest, showing off his toned body, it's mostly positive comments and even "MashaAllah"..

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I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

Some, perhaps. I'm not talking about the "radicals" anyway. They are mostly a minority but seem to get a lot of attention. Kind of like Muslim radicals/terrorists. Nowadays, we even have weird things like MRA (men's rights activists) so.. lol.

Or perhaps now that there is somewhat less stigma associated with women showing their sexuality (in the west), they feel they are more free to do so.

But if we're talking about the west, I don't see why this would be surprising. They are generally much more open about sexuality. They accept homosexuality and also slowly trans people.. 
However, it's not like plenty of men and women don't get up to certain things in Muslim countries as well. It's just more hidden there.



Offline Duster

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #28 on: April 14, 2019, 03:20:36 AM »
I actually think that society now (especially in the West) is pushing a movement where women under the guise of so called 'empowerment' are almost trying to compete with men in terms of their sexual conduct. In their quest for equality they stooping to  becoming debased and are in turn playing into men's fantasies!

Shalom / peace Truthseeker ... Thanks for your comments....>>> I actually agree with the above and generally what you have said ....it makes sense .... I have a question for you as a respected sister .... why do you think there are verses in the Qur'an which focus on women's coverage and not on men's as much .....>>>????

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #29 on: April 14, 2019, 05:04:01 PM »
Salaam Duster,

I may get lambasted for this but I feel the focus on women to cover is to guard themselves from the attention of men.

Men who I feel are definitely driven by their sexual hormones , much more than women are. As far as I am aware, men get  consumed with sexual thoughts that get triggered quite easily.

God created them that way but maybe their test in that area is going to be harder because they have been ordered to restrain themselves.