Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Women's clothes and rape?

Offline Athman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #60 on: April 16, 2019, 01:50:22 PM »
Dear brother Duster,

Shalom,

I am humbled. I also do share the underlying premise in your responses on this topic.

Dear Truth Seeker,

Wa alaikumus salaam,

Thanks for the acknowledgement. I found your responses to sister ShatteredEmblem well thought out and argued for too. I also do appreciate your input in the capacity of a Moderator. It is actually commendable the way you guys carry out your responsibility in this regard. Pleasure to have you guys on the ‘overwatch.’ By the way, is there any other of you guys on the forum?

Wasalam,
Athman.

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #61 on: April 16, 2019, 03:44:21 PM »
Dear Athman,

Thank you for your comments. There are other moderators on this forum, who also post like I do and those who prefer just to moderate and they are known as 'QM Moderators Team'.

Offline Athman

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 113
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #62 on: April 17, 2019, 08:27:54 AM »
Dear Truth Seeker,

Thanks for the information.

Regards,
Athman.

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #63 on: May 09, 2019, 06:09:05 PM »
I would just like to add some thoughts on this. Nothing can ever be a fool proof deterrent against an individual who wishes to harm, you can only do your best. As an example, when protecting your home, you could leave the doors unlocked and expect that no one should come in because they have absolutely no right to enter.

Yet I don't think that anyone would be that naive as to leave their home unsecured. You would take the best precautions to lock the door/windows but if a burglar is determined to enter, he will; some only if they saw an open window, others even if they see deterrents such as an alarm or CCTV. It does not mean therefore that securing your property is not working because you still got burgled. It may in fact have thwarted the 'opportunistic' burglar.

An example regarding when women go for a night out, here the police advice them to make sure they leave nightclubs etc together or inform someone of where they are going and to walk in well lit areas. They also advise that they use licensed taxis  because there have been cases where 'drivers' have raped women upon picking them up.

The above does not mean that it is the woman's fault is she is attacked but clearly there is a case to be made to take 'sensible precautions'. Yet I see certain feminists crying out against this advice, saying that men should control themselves. So let them take the no precautions and gamble their safety.

Offline AQL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Feminist. <-- Does this make you cry?
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #64 on: July 15, 2019, 09:58:20 PM »
Here is another article about women being sexually harassed despite wearing headscarves:

https://www.likely.com.my/hijabi-girls-speak-out-about-sexual-harassment/

Victim blaming is often a tactic used by misogynists and women suffering from internalized misogyny. They will try to blame anything and anyone but the rapist himself.
The "locking door to protect from robbery" is an example often used by such men (or people) as well.
The only one to blame for rape is the rapist. There is a difference between advising someone to take precautions and victim-blaming. That's when the "Why were you there?" "Why were you wearing those clothes?" questions come up after the woman was raped. I wonder where these questions are when men, children or elderly ladies are raped?

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #65 on: July 23, 2019, 11:52:43 PM »
Salaam AQL,

I have said here before that the rapist is to blame. Statistically stranger rape is rare in the UK (around 10% as far as I have read). So that means 90% is committed by those known to the victim so I think then that the 'clothing angle' doesn't really apply in the vast majority of cases so lets put this aside for now.


Regarding the very few countries where women are harassed by strangers whilst wearing headscarves, is truly disgraceful. There is something strange in the psyche of those men and there need to be a multimedia campaign including billboards etc to educate the menfolk. Maybe a push from their 'popular clergy' may help?

I still stand that a woman should take specific precautions when out and about as they are the weaker gender.

This is not victim blaming in my view but just common sense to protect yourself from a potential incident.

Offline AQL

  • Jr. Member
  • **
  • Posts: 50
  • Feminist. <-- Does this make you cry?
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #66 on: July 24, 2019, 11:11:59 AM »
Salaam,

Only the women who live in those "very few" many Muslim countries can speak about their personal experiences and how common it is. As well as women who live in villages and dress in village clothes, where they don't know much about their rights. It happens to women from all faiths, backgrounds and cultures, regardless of clothing. Like the case of domestic violence which is quite widespread (e.g. in Pakistan) but some people like to make it look like a trivial issue.
If already this amount of women have come forward, imagine the amount of unreported or unspoken cases.
Pakistani actress Armeena Khan also spoke about how she was groped when wearing burqa in market in Pakistan. It happens more than you think or want to believe. Also to women wearing shalwar kameez and I've personally known two girls who experienced similar in Pakistan. You can google what a shalwar kameez looks like.

I already posted a link (also UK although I don't live there) before which says how a person is more likely to be raped by someone they know, which makes the issue of clothing even more insignificant. There are even people who rape corpses, let's be real!
https://www.mirror.co.uk/news/uk-news/breaking-man-who-sex-corpse-13932352
https://metro.co.uk/2019/04/03/man-raped-corpses-women-killed-reveals-details-attacks-9106081/

But catcalling and street assault is another thing.

Yep, there is a difference between taking precautions and victim-blaming, which shouldn't be so hard to understand.

If a man wants to rape, he will rape:
https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3125219/Sex-attacker-targeted-Muslim-women-fetish-women-wearing-hijabs.html
https://gulfnews.com/world/asia/pakistan/pakistani-doctor-and-medical-staff-accused-of-raping-and-killing-a-woman-1.1556022738765
https://www.thejournal.ie/nurse-charged-with-rape-of-woman-in-coma-4455974-Jan2019/
https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/witness/2018/11/thousand-girls-afghan-woman-fight-rape-181121194856288.html
https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47738365
https://www.washingtonpost.com/local/public-safety/man-who-killed-nabra-hassanen-set-to-appear-in-court-thursday-for-sentencing/2019/03/27/29575ff4-4fd7-11e9-8d28-f5149e5a2fda_story.html?utm_term=.b4198dd04363

These poor women's cases are of just as much importance. And their rapists/attackers are not out of the ordinary rapists. They're just nasty rapists like the rest of them.

And some places are definitely safer than others. Women in the UK are arguably safer than women in Afghanistan (where women are covered head to toe) for example.

Muslim countries definitely need a stronger focus on keeping women (and children) safe and enforcing stricter punishments for rape, sexual assault etc. Instead of trying to push the blame on women. They have a long way to go.

Only recently, a 10 year old boy was raped and murdered in Pakistan:
https://www.pakistantoday.com.pk/2019/07/15/10-year-old-boy-allegedly-raped-murdered-in-lahore/

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 401
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #67 on: July 25, 2019, 12:20:33 AM »
Salaam AQL

I think that the issue you raise about catcalling and street assault is very important. It hinders a women's right to move about freely without being constantly harassed.

I feel deeply for those women who live in such societies and I know about the widespread leering and groping going on in Pakistan. That has not changed for decades so I wonder what it will take for a paradigm shift to take place.

The work needs to be done at ground level..I think it should be integrated into the school curriculum, because these countries have Islamic studies as a compulsory subject.

This way the next generation can be more respectful and mindful towards women.


Offline TausifAhmed474

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 2
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #68 on: September 10, 2019, 04:23:10 PM »
I disagree with Br Joseph.
Just because God did not mention dowry in Quran [33:49] does not mean that dowry is not a perquisite of marriage.

You who have iman! when you marry believing women and then divorce them before you have touched them, there is no ´idda for you to calculate for them, so give them a gift and let them go with kindness. [33:49]   

In the next verse [33:50] dowry is again mentioned, but as can be seen that ONLY the Prophet(pbuh) has been exempted from giving dowry if the woman he is about to marry says not to give her the dowry.

O Prophet! We have made halal for you: your wives to whom you have given dowries and any slavegirls you own from the booty Allah has allotted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who have made hijra with you and any mumin woman who gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her: exclusively for you as opposed to the rest of the muminunWe know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   

We know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you
What does this mean?This is an indication towards "Dowry" and as can be seen, in the last part of verse the Prophet has been told that he is not obliged to give the dowry, but this is exclusively for him.Rest of the Muslims are obliged to give the dowries for marriage.

Importance of Dowry in Marriage in Islam:

Give women their dowry as an outright gift. But if they are happy to give you some of it, make use of it with pleasure and goodwill.   [4:4]

Mutual Attraction And Dowry Required

And also married women, except for those you have taken in war as slaves. This is what Allah has prescribed for you. Apart from that He has made all other women halal for you provided you seek them with your wealth in marriage and not in fornication. When you consummate your marriage with them give them their prescribed dowry. There is nothing wrong in any further agreement you might come to after the dowry has been given. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [4:24]

If any of you do not have the means to marry free women who are muminun, you may marry slavegirls who are muminun. Allah knows best about your iman; you are all the same in that respect. Marry them with their owners´ permission and give them their dowries correctly and courteously as married women, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. When they are married, if they commit fornication they should receive half the punishment of free women. This is for those of you who are afraid of committing fornication. But being patient is better for you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   [4:25]

Allah desires to make things clear to you and to guide you to the correct practices of those before you and to turn towards you. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [4:26]

Today all good things have been made halal for you. And the food of those given the Book is also halal for you and your food is halal for them. So are free women from among the muminun and free women of those given the Book before you, once you have given them their dowries in marriage, not in fornication or taking them as lovers. But as for anyone who rejects iman, his actions will come to nothing and in the Next World he will be among the losers.   [5:5]

O Prophet! We have made halal for you: your wives to whom you have given dowries and any slavegirls you own from the booty Allah has allotted you and the daughters of your paternal uncles and the daughters of your paternal aunts and the daughters of your maternal uncles and the daughters of your maternal aunts who have made hijra with you and any mumin woman who gives herself to the Prophet if the Prophet desires to marry her: exclusively for you as opposed to the rest of the muminun — We know very well what We have prescribed for them regarding their wives and any slavegirls they possess — in order that there be no restriction on you. Allah is Ever-Forgiving, Most Merciful.   [33:50]

You who have iman! when women who have iman come to you as muhajirun, submit them to a test. Allah has best knowledge of their iman. If you know they are muminun, do not return them to the kuffar. They are not halal for the kuffar nor are the kuffar halal for them. Give the kuffar whatever dowry they paid. And there is nothing wrong in your marrying them provided you pay them their due. Do not hold to any marriage ties with women who are kafir. Ask for what you paid and let them ask for what they paid. That is Allah´s judgement. Allah will judge between them. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [60:10]

From the above we learn that:

-dowry is a pre-requisite for a marriage,
-is to be paid by husband to his wife,
-should be equitable,
-the husband and wife can mutually make any adjustment to the dowry,
-a woman's forfeiting of the dowry for the prophet does not automatically apply to other believers.

Although one cannot find in the Quran any direct support for payment of dowry in cash only, dowry cannot be something that does not have a monetary value. It cannot be love, honesty, being faithful, etc., which are anyway traits of righteous people. If it could be something that does not have monetary value, following and many other verses (including making adjustments to the dowry) would be rendered inapplicable:

If you divorce them before you have touched them but have already allotted them a dowry, they should have half the amount which you allotted, unless they forgo it or the one in charge of the marriage contract forgoes it. To forgo it is closer to taqwa. Do not forget to show generosity to one another. Allah sees what you do.   [2:237]

And there is nothing wrong in your marrying them provided you pay them their due. Do not hold to any marriage ties with women who are kafir. Ask for what you paid and let them ask for what they paid. That is Allah´s judgement. Allah will judge between them. Allah is All-Knowing, All-Wise.   [60:10]

What is an equitable dowry is what one has to assess for oneself. It depends on case to case. The rich as he can afford and the poor as he can. This should not be abused for God will hold us responsible for our innermost intention. When we are committing our deeds with an intention to please Him, He will guide us to do the right thing.

Dowry is a pre-requisite for marriage throughout the Quran. Even when verse 4:4 says :Give women their dowry as an outright gift. But if they are happy to give you some of it, make use of it with pleasure and goodwill. A woman may choose to willingly forfeit anything; the believing man must offer dowry with sincere intentions.

Let us see some other relevant verses in this regard.
[2:229]
Divorce may be retracted twice. The divorced woman shall be allowed to live in the same home amicably, or leave it amicably. It is not lawful for the husband to take back anything he had given her. However, the couple may fear that they may transgress GOD's law. If there is fear that they may transgress GOD's law, they commit no error if the wife willingly gives back whatever she chooses. These are GOD's laws; do not transgress them. Those who transgress GOD's laws are the unjust.

Protection for Women

[4:20-21]
If you wish to marry another wife, in place of your present wife, and you had given any of them a great deal, you shall not take back anything you had given her. Would you take it fraudulently, maliciously, and sinfully? How could you take it back, after you have been intimate with each other, and they had taken from you a solemn pledge?

The above verses makes it abundantly clear that it is not righteous to take back the dowry unless one is completely overcome by certain circumstances.

An example of dowry from the Quran could be that of Moses.

[28:27-28]
He said, "I wish to offer one of my two daughters for you to marry, in return for working for me for eight pilgrimages; if you make them ten, it will be voluntary on your part. I do not wish to make this matter too difficult for you. You will find me, GOD willing, righteous." He said, "It is an agreement between me and you. Whichever period I fulfill, you will not be averse to either one. GOD is the guarantor of what we said."

"Indeed, God is with those who are righteous and those who do good" [Quran 16:129]

Offline MaHa

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 6
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #69 on: September 11, 2019, 06:20:30 AM »
Salam Brother Tausif,

I am also a newbie here and haven't read all of Joseph's articles. But I believe, you have misunderstood his views about it. I have found 2 forum thread about this topic. please read from there for more clarification. In one of it, he said, "In my humble view from a Quranic perspective, a bridal due (ujur) would be a pre-requisite to establish the contract of marriage (4:24; 60:10)."

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1023.0

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=2431.0


Offline Hamzeh

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 461
    • View Profile
Re: Women's clothes and rape?
« Reply #70 on: September 11, 2019, 06:38:27 AM »
Asalamu 3alykum MaHa

Yes I agree with you as well that TausifAhmed has misunderstood brother Joseph's perspective on that.

Salam