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Offline Beyond Tradition

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Dear Brother Joseph ,
Ramadan Kareem. As - Sa - La- Mualikum .
Per my understanding Quran makes the specific time for 5 times salah and fasting based on Sun rising and drowning .
My question is , how a Muslim understand the time of Salah where ( some countries like Norway, Osolo , Kopen hegen etc.. ) day is much longer than night . On the other hand in some countries there is no day for several months . or in some where 6 months night and six months day . I am not 100% sure about this variance of the day and night but I have had heard . So question is raised that how Muslim eat Seheri and Iftar in ramadan in those country ? similarly will perform Salah ?  My thought is Quran must have anything on this time issue when it specified time for five times Salah  and because God knows about the climate of all countries .  I have very limited knowledge of this time zone . Please input your thought on this or share me the artical where you already discussed about this topics.

Thank you .

Offline Joseph Islam

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Dear Beyond Tradition,

Wa alaikum assalam,

Ramadan Kareem to you too.

Believers must remember that the remit of any religious obligation is governed by 'istataat' (i.e. the best one can achieve / best endeavours / best ability whilst striving in the way of God).

064:016
“So keep your duty to God as best you can / what you are able (Arabic: ma is’tata’tum), and listen, and obey, and spend; that is better for your souls. And whoso is saved from his own greed, such are the successful”

If reasonable time regulation cannot be determined due to the extremities (anomalies) of geographical locales on the planet or outside (in space - e.g. on the International Space Station), then there are a few options that can be considered in the spirit of verse 64:16.

Please kindly appreciate, that the Quran allows for reasonable Ijtihad (intellectual endeavour with a view to form the best opinion), so such intellectual reasoning should not be considered outlandish, particularly if the Quran has not legislated a particular position on a matter.

Some examples that can be considered:

  • Timings coordinated with the nearest country / region with a regulated night/day/ season variation
  • Timings coordinated with the nearest perceived 'Muslim' country with a regulated night/day/ season variation
  • Timings regulated with the Holy Sanctuary in Saudi Arabia
  • Timings regulated with the Holy precincts in Jerusalem

Whatever method is taken (examples above or others), it is to be understood that these are exceptional circumstances and the intention is to serve Allah alone.

I hope this helps, God willing
Joseph


'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Beyond Tradition

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Dear Brother Joseph ,
As-sa-la Mualikum . I like your thoughts in Quran's perspective.
It sounds good . Thank you again . God bless you .

Best regards

Offline Wakas

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peace,

Please note:

sawm/abstinence is only applicable for those who witness the shahr [2:185]

there is no comparable timing-related exception given for salat

Offline Hamzeh

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Asalamu 3alykum bro Wakas

Can you elaborate a little more? And example if possible?

Peace

Offline Wakas

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peace,

I cannot give an example of something that does not exist.

e.g. if you witness the shahr, fast. If you dont, you dont have to.

For salat there is no time-related exception/criteria like the above. This could be problematic depending on your view.

Offline Hamzeh

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Peace

What is the problem if salat does not have that exception? Just to be on the same page and understand your comment,  your saying that because salat timing does not have to be witnessed so for that matter it can't mean a form of prayer? Am I getting the point?

Do you mean by witness like present in ones home or town and not sick or on a journey right?

Offline Wakas

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peace,

By witness I mean observe/experience such a thing, e.g. the shahr (full-moon, lunar-cycle, however one understands it).

This thread was asking how do we reconcile salat and sawm in locations where the timings (based on natural phenomena) are out of the ordinary.

As I said previously this issue with regards to sawm can be explicitly answered via Quran, i.e. it is only applicable to those who witness the shahr.

However, with regards to salat there is no explicit answer.

For example, this doesn't really pose a problem with my view of a minimum of two salat daily for the mumineen, which is based on the only plural address to believers for a timed salat verse, 24:58, wherein only "salat al fajr" and "salat al isha" are mentioned. Note, the sun is not explicitly mentioned in this verse.

However, it could pose a problem for anyone with a view of salat timings based on the sun, e.g. as commonly found in the 5 salat daily view.

That does not mean I reject the sentiments as found in brother Joseph's reply.


As a side note I already mentioned the above in my salat article (I thought you had read it, perhaps not).

Offline Hamzeh

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Peace

Thanks for clarifying. I get what your saying now.

I still think that there might be questions regarding fasting in areas out of the ordinary where the month is witnessed and in areas where the sun never sets or when it never rises.

Questions like this might arise: "when does one begin the fast in areas when where the sun never sets and the month of Ramadan falls on that time?" Norway , Alaska, Antartica etc

How can one see the white thread from the black thread of dawn in areas where the sun's light is always present and the thread cannot be witnessed? When does one stop to eat and drink?

One would be required to do the duty as best they can.


Offline Wakas

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peace,

I still think that there might be questions regarding fasting in areas out of the ordinary where the month is witnessed and in areas where the sun never sets or when it never rises.

Questions like this might arise: "when does one begin the fast in areas when where the sun never sets and the month of Ramadan falls on that time?" Norway , Alaska, Antartica etc

How can one see the white thread from the black thread of dawn in areas where the sun's light is always present and the thread cannot be witnessed? When does one stop to eat and drink?



I agree there is some unanswered issues. While ago I tried to research what exactly the moon phases were like in those areas but didn't find complete information. AFAIK partial moon is visible but not a complete moon-cycle. I would be interested to know if anyone has this info.

Offline Hamzeh

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Peace Wakas

I also realised that the information is not complete regarding that.

I am more inclined to interpret the term "Faman shahida minkum ashshar falyasumHU" as "whosoever of you is present let him fast the month" ... as opposed to being an actual witness to the moon sighting although I'm not denying a moon sighting should be done to initiate the start of the month.

The verse seems to denote that the whole month of Ramadan should be fasted and not parts of it and gives the warrant to those sick or away for whatever reason to make up the missed fasts out of that specific month on other days.

It could be possible if the term "falyasumHu" was not present in the verse one might think or question the amount of days to fast as a specific number of days are prescribed accounting to verse 2:184.

Peace

Offline Mohammed

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peace,

For those (e.g. those in polar regions) who find it difficult to fast(or for doing any other forms of worship), these verses may have the answer,

[4:97-100]
That those the angels/malaa'eka make them die, unjust (to) themselves, they said: "In what you were/have been? "They said: "We were weakened in the Earth/land." They said: "Was not God's Earth/land wide/spacious so you emigrate in it?" So those, their shelter/refuge (is) Hell, and it was a bad/evil end/destination.
   
Except the weakened from the men, and the women, and the children, they are not able (of a) solution (means) and nor they be guided a way/path.

So those, may be God that He forgives/pardons on them, and God is often forgiving, (a) forgiver.

And who emigrates in God's sake, he finds in the earth an escape, and a wealth/an abundance, and who gets out from his house emigrating to God and His messenger, then the death overtakes him, so his reward had fallen/been placed on God, and God is a forgiver, merciful.

For example, suppose one born in an atheist family, as he attains maturity, realizing the truth and comes to the truth. Will he then continue what he followed before(what his atheist parents taught him)?

The verse seems to denote that the whole month of Ramadan should be fasted

Do you have evidence from the Qur'an that Ramadan is the name of a month/lunar cycle? Why Qur'an didn't mention other 'months' of traditional Islamic calendar?(atleast the 4 inviolable 'months'?)
What is wrong with shahr = full moon?
quote
"Classical Arabic Dictionaries deal extensively with the etymology of the word "shahr". For instance in the discussion of "shahr", it gives "ash-harat", a derivative of "shahr", as meaning a pregnant woman whose belly is round. It also gives the meaning of "shahira(t)" as a big wide woman. It also gives the meaning of "ash-har" as the bright white color of flowers. The primary meaning of the word "shahr" is "something obvious", "something public", "something wide", and "something bright". Hence, all the etymology of the Arabic word "shahr" indisputably and clearly points to it being the obvious, wide, round, and bright full-moon and not the thin, unobvious, and dim new crescent moon."
http://islam-and-muslims.com/timing.html

If shahr =the whole lunar cycle, then it already have number of days in it, i.e. ~29.5 days.
But the Qur’an says fast ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’(2:184), and according to Qur’an the term ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ is used for ‘10 days’ (in 2:203, Qur’an mentions ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ for Hajj days, and from 2:189 & 196 Hajj days are 10).
So, fast for ‘ayyamn ma’doodat’ = fast for 10 days.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

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another reasonable thought,

"The only two examples of fasting that I have discerned are the fast of Mariam, the mother of Isa and the fast of Zakharia, both which consisted of  NOT talking! As has been mentioned in the Qur'an, fasting has been prescribed for us as it was prescribed for those before us, then it only makes sense to observe the fast as described in the Qur'an by those before us!"
https://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9610670.msg425212#new
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Mohammed

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peace,

I think it(#12) is incorrect.
-my current understanding. Verify for yourself-17:36.
O you who believe! Enter perfectly in islam/ Surrender yourselves wholly unto God [2:208], [3:19-20,85 2:132]

Offline Hamzeh

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Peace Mohammed

If that was the only information mentioned in the Quran about fasting one might agree.

However the verse 2:187 is clear that a couple things are to be refrained from during the fasts. One is relations between spouses and second is drinking and eating

2:187
It is made lawful for you to go in unto your wives on the night of the fast. They are raiment for you and ye are raiment for them. Allah is Aware that ye were deceiving yourselves in this respect and He hath turned in mercy toward you and relieved you. So hold intercourse with them and seek that which Allah hath ordained for you, and eat and drink until the white thread becometh distinct to you from the black thread of the dawn. Then strictly observe the fast till nightfall and touch them not, but be at your devotions in the mosques. These are the limits imposed by Allah, so approach them not. Thus Allah expoundeth His revelation to mankind that they may ward off (evil).


Peace