Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

Offline QM Moderators Team

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 121
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #60 on: April 22, 2014, 01:46:59 AM »
Dear Saba,

Please can we ask that in future you attempt to keep your comments general if you can and not single out individuals if it is not completely relevant to the post. Some of your comments have been edited as discussed with you.

Thanks

Offline Saba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #61 on: April 25, 2014, 06:27:29 PM »
Ok - got it.. np!  8) :)

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #62 on: May 30, 2014, 11:36:35 AM »
In any case, as I said, take your time.

As-salam alaykum brother Wakas.

Thanks for your reply.

As I mentioned in my previous post, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

Your brother in faith.
Joseph


Dear brother Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

Given your repeated requests, I have responded to your attempted rebuttal.

With respect, it has been a tedious task and has taken much time away from my other commitments. I do hope however, that you and other readers will benefit from my responses to your attempted rebuttal of my position of 5 prayers a day.

As I respectfully mentioned to you before dear brother, I have discussed this subject repeatedly with you and given my responses to your attempted rebuttal, I cannot afford any further time (nor do I wish) to engage with you on this topic further as I feel that it has added little to my perspective.

I also trust that you will kindly take this response as my last to you on this particular topic and you will of course also exhibit the academic courtesy to provide my response at places where you have posted a link to your attempted rebuttal of my article.  As far as I know, you are usually very transparent in matters such as this.

RESPONSE TO WAKAS
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm

With respect and regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #63 on: May 31, 2014, 09:54:40 PM »
Dear brother Joseph,
w/salaam.

Thanks for the response. It is unfortunate that your reply above gives the impression you did not make multiple changes to your article as a result of my comments, which you did. I hope readers of this forum are not misled by such wording.

In any case, I have not read all of your response yet, but I did notice you repeatedly misstated my position throughout (even though you quoted my position at the start). Let me be clear, as I said in this thread, my position is The Quran evidences "a minimum of two salat daily" NOT "two salat daily". I hope you can appreciate there is a difference.

GW, I will review your response in the future. Until then:

Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

[Al Quran, 39:18]
 

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #64 on: May 31, 2014, 11:25:29 PM »
Dear Wakas,

As-salam alaykum

It is unfortunate that your reply above gives the impression you did not make multiple changes to your article as a result of my comments, which you did. I hope readers of this forum are not misled by such wording.

May I kindly request that you do not (in any manner whatsoever) part with comments which may tacitly disparage the intelligence of the readership. I believe they are quite apt to make up their own minds after putting my response to you to scrutiny and are not prone to being misled. I believe that they are quite discerning.

Furthermore, I truly believe that any sincere reader worth their salt given my numerous comments in red to your 20 points would not consider the two clarifications I have made for the benefit of the readership as 'multiple changes'. This is in my view, an incorrect impression that you have parted to give some credibility to your attempted rebuttal which evidently suffered from numerous problems.

The two clarifications were clearly stated as:

  • In 6b after refuting the basis of your critique, I said the following:
    "However, to avoid confusion, the literal rendition (reading / recitation at dawn) has been updated to the article."
  • In 10B I shared:
    "'...Atraf' can refer to any sides, extremities of the day and 'Fajr' and 'Isha' was merely to be quoted as examples. Therefore, the article has been modified."

This is in my opinion, by no means a host of changes by any stretch of the English language, as you imply by the term ‘multiple changes’. Furthermore, they do not alter the thrust of the argument for 5 prayers a day, which in my humble view, your inability to contest only confirmed.

If anything, the fact that I have I chosen to make evident in my response that I have sought to clarify my article on two minor points in a plethora of rebuttals against your intended critique should be ample evidence of my humble willingness to be transparent and remain credible.  However, please can I kindly request that you do not take my clarification as if to somehow present your own critique in a favourable light. In my humble view, your critique suffered a host of serious weaknesses of which I made mention in my response to you, in no uncertain terms. [1]

but I did notice you repeatedly misstated my position throughout (even though you quoted my position at the start). Let me be clear, as I said in this thread, my position is The Quran evidences "a minimum of two salat daily" NOT "two salat daily". I hope you can appreciate there is a difference.

This is simply a play on words Wakas. By asserting that there are a minimum of 2-salaat a day you concede that the Quran only prescribes 2 prayers a day as 'fard' (compulsory) which is your position. Of course, one can pray a 100 prayers in the day voluntarily if they so desire and are able (we both agree with that). However, your position of 2-salaat a day is an authoritative position based on the Quran which stipulates this as 'prescribed'. This is opposed to my position from the Quran of 5 prayers a day. Therefore, I strongly disagree with your claim that I have misrepresented your position in any way. I merely exposed your position to make it evident to readers so they could possibly better understand the premise of your rebuttal which may also be to attack the 5-prayer a day authoritative belief from the Quran, given your own beliefs.

In any case, I have not read all of your response yet,

Then I am truly amazed how you have come to the general conclusion that I have:

  • In any way misrepresented your position
  • Made 'multiple changes' to my article as a result of my comments

Like I respectfully shared before, I will not be discussing this matter with you again. I have already spent far more time than I would have wished to deal with one individual's gripe against the 5 prayers a day belief with whom I have already discussed the matter before.

This is no different  from your sentiment where you stated:

"Unfortunately, I am not really interested in debating an individual, thus I would much prefer a large group of 5-salat-daily advocates. The larger the better." - Wakas 25th December 2013

My response to you was a one-off response given the fact that I felt you were on the verge of badgering me for a response, both directly and indirectly, and brazenly posted your attempted rebuttal on other social platforms as a refutation of the 5-prayer a day belief, focusing on my article in particular. I believe that your arguments were weak and this was highlighted. With respect, I personally cannot afford to give you any more time debating what you believe to be true and a topic which I feel I have exhausted. This is my prerogative.

I would trust that you will sincerely appreciate someone's time and effort that they have given you to go through your tedious 'alleged refutations' rather than being overly critical.

May I kindly reiterate that any future discussions on this topic will be curtailed as I do not consider a discussion with you on this topic fruitful going forward. We have both made our positions clear and the readers can of course, make up their own minds.

Regards,
Joseph


REFERENCE:

[1] RESPONSE TO WAKAS
http://quransmessage.com/critiques/Response%20to%20Wakas.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline QM Moderators Team

  • Administrator
  • Full Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 121
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #65 on: June 01, 2014, 08:06:50 PM »
Dear All,

As per Saba's post (now removed) please see links where Wakas has posted his article:

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459
http://www.salaatforum.com/index.php?id=6251

This thread is now closed as all sides have shared their perspectives.

Thanks