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Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #30 on: February 11, 2014, 01:16:53 AM »
Salaam Wakas,

I am confused on your way of thinking... You do not believe in the hadith yet you are taking and referring on words in Hadith writings, and a Quran that was written by a believer of those writings and even acknowledges in his quran that he used words from the hadith that refer to the verses in the Quran because it is better explained. You also have reference of articles about 2 prayers and base that from what I saw on what writers of the hadith explains. You are going off  "Early and Morning Prayers in Early Islam, where the author is going off Hadith that have truth to them because it is a history written by God knows who and after the prophets death hundreds of years? They even put the Prophet ordered the prayer of this and that, asir and naming different ones, so if you believe in Allahs and his words when He tells you Muhummed followed what Prophet Abrahim did, which is how we pray the 5 prayers and the ones Allah refers to in the Quran by time mainly and some by name.

 

Another refrence you are giving is Abdul Mannan Omar.. This is what He says...

 


"The etymology, the function, and wherever applicable

the abbreviations are also given from the most authentic sources,
 
with explanatory notes, grammatical comments, and examples in
 
phrase and poetry. Towards this end, authentic scholarly works
 
in the sciences of

Hadîth, Tafsîr, and Islamic History have been
 
included. The result is a reliable and authentic knowledge and
 
explanation of the etymology and meanings of the Qur'ânic words"

Instead of studying the Quran, and believing it is COMPLETE, EVERYTHING IS IN IT, you turn to people who ridicule the Rasool and Allah in their satanic fabrications and writings?

Still you refer to Ibn Kathir Quran tafsir where mijority of his explanation of the verses out if the Quran are completely wrong. No one and I mean now one knows what Allah means or the History of the past except what Allah tells us and the Rasool is Dead, we can not ask him. You are just trying to justify your views which is dangerous. You are no different than following hadith even worse in my view brother and I say that without seeming to attack you, you got on the right foot seeing that the Hadith is not part of the religion, yet you want to use it to get your justification to give your view merit? When Allah's words are right in front of you? Dictionaries, quran corpse and many other explanations are WRONG, WRONG AND MORE WRONG!!! These people you are getting yoru information about do not even understand the Quran. What strikes me is they write books about Quran even in English and they do not understand that the Rasool wrote the Quran in his own hands, That not to accept any other sources but the Quran, and I can list many more, you expect anyone to believe their word?  You are connected to the freeminds.org.. I am sorry, that is nothing short of a new invented religion and not Islam.



Offline Saba

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #31 on: February 11, 2014, 03:09:19 AM »
Tell us saba, does Quran say those who know Arabic best will understand it best? If so, please provide the verse.

Even if we both agree that knowledge of Arabic is important, it is only one element used to derive an accurate understanding. I have already discussed in some detail about the other elements.

salaams ..I never said that those who know Arabic will understand the Qur'an the best. However, an arab or anyone that knows arabic will know arabic words / grammar better than those who don't.

.......... br Mazhar on the free-minds link challenged your understanding with proof or 'evidence' as you like to call it..... Now I am interested to see what your reply is...do you have a rebuttal to his view? can you prove to me and other readers on this forum that your view is better than his??

Quote
"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

The first step is to determine the word as to which part of speech it relates and to identify the phrases.

صَلَاةِ الْفَجْرِ  and صَلَاةِ الْعِشَاءِ are possessive phrases.

Phrase: It is a string of words that form a constituent and so function as a single unit in the syntax of a sentence. A phrase is lower on the grammatical hierarchy than a clause. These are compounds, in Arabic الْمُرَكَّبَاتُ. When two or more words are joined they constitute a Phrase [مركب ناقص] or [مركب تام] a Sentence-جُمْلَةٌ.

In English, possessive words or phrases exist for nouns and most pronouns, as well as some noun phrases. These can play the roles of determiners (also called possessive adjectives when corresponding to a pronoun) or of nouns.

Possessive determiners constitute a sub-class of determiners which modify a noun by attributing possession (or other sense of belonging) to someone or something. They are also known as possessive adjectives.

In Arabic possessive phrase is called:

أَلإضَافَةُ ٱلْحَقِيقِيَّةُ
   [literally: annexation, addition, or attachment] Possessive/Relative Phrase-"the Construct"

Salat is time bound. Time is determined by the movement of the Sun. The above two words are NOT the names, but possessive phrases-single unit where the second noun with definite article is indicative of the point in time. Point in time does not mean duration.

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459


Saba  :)




Offline Wakas

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #32 on: February 11, 2014, 04:53:03 AM »
w/salaam Abbsrayray,

I am confused on your way of thinking...

I will attempt to clarify, but please note, such posts may be limited in future.

You mention that I refer to Ibn Kathir, which I do, but for a specific and clear reason, allow me to quote myself and pay very close attention to the words in red:

Quote
Background information:
Traditional Islamic history openly admits that before the alleged "isra & miraj" (night journey & ascension) story involving prophet Muhammad in 17:1, there were only two salat daily, or perhaps 2 + 1 extra during the night, see sources: famous Traditional scholar Ibn Kathir and academic article dedicated to this topic. For those unfamiliar with the alleged isra & miraj story, please use a search engine. For a possible explanation of 17:1 as per Quran, please see here. Thus, according to tradition, after this event there became 5 daily salat.

The above was written to simply give readers a little background information on the origins of the 5 salat daily according to Traditional Islamic sources.

Nowhere do I ever say this is my view.

My use of words such as "alleged" make it clear I do not consider it true, or at the very least questionable.

The part in blue is a reference I give to my own view, as per Quran.

#####

You then go on to mention that I reference Abdul Mannan Omar and since he makes use of traditional sources this somehow means I am discredited/wrong or also using them.
Firstly, to my knowledge every Classical Arabic dictionary makes use, in part, of Traditional Islamic sources, e.g. Lane's Lexicon (which brother Joseph uses many times for example), when they discuss meanings. Perhaps the first one (kitab al ayn) didn't, I dont know as I haven't researched it, but certainly would have used non-Quranic sources.

Just because I reference it, does not mean my points are based on it. And in case there was any doubt, one simply has to read all 20 points I make in my article, and it will be blatantly obvious that not once do I reference a Traditional Islamic source, e.g. Hadith.

The only time I do mention them is in passing, as a two sentence sidenote, quote:

"As a side note, "wusta" has never been a reference/name for a salat in Traditional Islamic history as far as I'm aware. And for those that argue it refers to a clear/known period of the day, they should note that there is variance in Traditional sources about which salat it may refer to."

I recommend reading very carefully, multiple times if necessary.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #33 on: February 11, 2014, 06:25:51 AM »
w/salaam saba,

.......... br Mazhar on the free-minds link challenged your understanding with proof or 'evidence' as you like to call it..... Now I am interested to see what your reply is...do you have a rebuttal to his view? can you prove to me and other readers on this forum that your view is better than his??

It is actually quite tiresome having a discussion with br. Mazhar, not only due to language barrier but also he is often vague/indirect/evasive. As can be seen from this thread where I had to remind him several times about answering my points, and when claimed to have finished answering 8 pages later, I didn't understand much of what he wrote, particularly the latter answers. And it's not only me, this is regularly said about br. Mazhar's posts. I created a summary thread here.

I fail to see his objection in the quote you gave, as it is irrelevant to my request. However, I do find it telling you seem to think it is worthy of a reply. In any case, I have replied on that thread on FM, in an attempt to clarify.

 

Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #34 on: February 11, 2014, 08:10:25 AM »
Salaam Wakas,

Please go listen to verses 3:7, 2:26 and 74:26-31


Offline JoeShaer

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #35 on: February 12, 2014, 03:56:29 AM »
Greetings of Salam to you dear all,

I would like to share with you all my understanding of the number of Salat in the Quran.


INTRODUCTION

Despite the fifteen centuries since Muslems have been praying five times a day, there is still some debate about the number of Salats (prayers) mentioned in the Quran.    Some people argue that since there are 3 Salats mentioned by name in the Quran - dawn, middle, evening (24:58, 2:238) -  and thus they pray only 3 times per day.   Another group claims there are 2 Salats mentioned in the Quran because they interpret ‘Salatul Wusta’ as 'the best prayer' and not as an additional 'middle' prayer.

{24:58} O you who acknowledge, let those whom are under your contract and have not yet attained puberty request your permission regarding three times: Before the Dawn Salat, and when you take off your attire from the heat of the noon, and after the Evening Salat...

{2:238} Preserve the Salat, and the Middle Salat (Salatul Wusta), and stand devoutly for God

However, when we read {24:58} and {2:238} we see that these verses speak of matters concerning private times for parents and about preserving the Salats.  These verses do not speak of when to 'establish prayer' (AQIM AL SALAT) and therefore have nothing to do with the number of Salats we need to observe.
The objective of this article is to show that God commands us to AQIM AL SALAT (Establish the Salat) during five specific times of the day in the Quran.


METHODOLOGY (THE QURAN IS THE ONLY REFERENCE)

The evidence for the five daily Salats will be clearly demonstrated using the Quran alone as the only reference. After all, the Quran is complete {7:3}, detailed {6:114} and contains all our religious practices {5:48}:
{7:3} Follow what was sent down to you all from your Lord, and do not follow besides Him any supporters. Little do you remember!

{6:114} "Shall I seek other than God as a judge when He has sent down to you this book sufficiently detailed?" Those to whom We have given the book know it is sent down from your Lord with truth; so do not be of those who have doubt.

{5:48} We have sent down to you the book with truth, authenticating what is present of the book and superseding it. So judge between them by what God has sent down, and do not follow their desires from what has come to you of the truth. For each of you We have made laws, a structure. Had God willed, He would have made you all one nation, but He tests you with what He has given you, so advance the good deeds. To God you will return all of you, and He will inform you regarding that in which you dispute.



VERSES ABOUT ESTABLISHING SALAT

There are only two verses in the entire Quran which commands the believer to AQIM AL SALAT (establish the Salat) at specific times throughout the day;

 In {11:114} we learn the number of Salats we must establish, and in {17:78} we learn precise duration for each Salat.

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY of the day and ZULAFAN from the night.

{17:78} Establish  the Salat LIDULUK of the sun until GHASAQ of the night and Quran at dawn.

Please note: one should not confuse SALAT with SABBIH (glorify). Some scholars have attempted to derive the timings of Salat from verses that speak of SABBIH or glorification (see 20:130). This is an invalid approach because SABBIH is not the same as AQIM AL SALAT.



THE NUMBER OF SALAT IN THE QURAN

God Almighty commands us:

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY (two portions) of the day and ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night.

Firstly, we must recognize that 11:114 commands us to establish the Salat during the Day (NAHAR) as well as at Night (LAYL).

Day is the time when the sun is revealed and the night time is when the sun is covered. This is evident in {91:1-4} where God says, "By the sun and its brightness... and the Day which reveals it, and the night which covers it...".


Secondly, in 11:114 the keywords TARAFAY and ZULAFAN enable us to determine the number of Salats mentioned.  But first, we must learn a very basic rule of Arabic grammar in plurals:

In Arabic, a noun can be 'singular (one)', 'dual (two)', or 'plural (three or more)'.

The words TARAFAY and ZULAFAN in 11:114 are grammatically constructed in the following plural forms:

TARAFAY = dual (2)

ZULAFAN = plural (3 or more)


Putting it all together, and from a purely grammatical perspective, we see that God commands the believers to establish the Salat at TARAFAY (2) of the day, and ZULAFAN (3+) from the night:

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY [dual: 2 Salats] of the day and ZULAFAN [plural: 3 or more Salats] from the night.

So it is without a doubt that - as it has been practiced by Muslims since the time of prophet Muhammad (pbuh) - there are 5 total Salats ordained by God to the Muslims.



Linguistics of 11:114

TARAFAY

{11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY (two portions) of the day...

TARAFAY: comes from the root Ta Ra Fa and it means 'end, side, edge, or portion'... TARAFAY in 11:114 is dual, its plural form is ATRAF, and singular form is TARAF.

Some people translate 'TARAFAY of the day' as 'two ends of the day' being the dawn and sunset times.  However, this is an incorrect interpretation due to the following reasons:

1.   'Dawn' and 'Sunset' are NOT part of the Day but they are part of the Night. The command in 11:114 is to establish the Salat at TARAFAY of the Day.

2.   As far as the Quran is concerned, the Day has more than two edges or ATRAF (ends/edges/portions). This is evident in 20:130:

{20:130} So be patient to what they are saying and glorify the grace of your Lord before the rising of the sun (Dawn), and before its setting (Sunset), and from the early part of the night (Night) glorify, and at the ATRAF (edges/portions) of the day that you may be content.

In 20:130 God excludes the timing of Dawn, Sunset, and Night from the ‘ATRAF (edges/portions) of the day’.  Thus, TARAFAY of the day in 11:114 would mean two portions of the Day which do not include Dawn, Sunset, or Night.         
 

Therefore 'TARAFAY of the day' in 11:114 is best translated as 'two portions of the day' because this conforms to the above noted Quranic verses.



ZULAFAN

{11:114} Establish the Salat at... ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night....

ZULAFAN: comes from the root ZA LA FA and it means "close proximity or nearness"...

Most interpreters translate 'ZULAFAN from the night' as "approaches of the night". Although this is a correct translation, it does not demonstrate the precise Arabic plurals function which affects how we understand this verse.

As mentioned earlier, the word ZULAFAN in 11:114 is plural and therefore there are 3 'near parts' of the night in which the Salat must be established.

These 3 ‘near parts’ of the night reflect the 3 primary degrees of darkness in the night:

1)   Sunset (night mixes into day)
2)   Night (absolute darkness)
3)   Dawn (day mixes into day)





SALAT TIMING IN THE QURAN

{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK (repeated-declining) of the sun until GHASAQ (darkness) of the night and the Quran at Dawn...

In {17:78} we are given the timing and duration of each of the 5 Salats:

•   LIDULUK of the sun = 3 Salats. The word LIDULUK means the repeated 'declining' of the sun which occurs 3 times: noon, afternoon, and at sunset.

The phrase 'LIDILUK of the sun' coincides with 'TARAFAY (two portions) of the day' and the 1st part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) of the night' in 11:114.

•   GHASAQ of the night = 1 Salat. The word GHASAQ means 'absolute darkness' and this occurs at Night when the sky turns completely dark.

The phrase 'GHASAQ (darkness) of the night' coincides with the 2nd part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.

•   Quran at Dawn = 1 Salat. Linguistically, the phrase WA QURAN AL FAJR (Quran at dawn) emphasizes establishing the Salat as well as reading the Quran at dawn.

The phrase WA QURAN AL FAJR (Quran at Dawn) coincides with the 3rd part of the 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



LINGUISTICS OF 17:78

LIDULUK
{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK (repeated declining) of the sun...

LIDULUK comes from the root DA LA KA and it generally means 'falling or being pushed from one place to another'... As such, the "DULUK of the sun" is simply 'the declining' of the sun from its position in the sky into the next position. This declining begins at noon.

However, because the word DULUK in 17:78 is accompanied by the preposition 'LI' (LIDULUK) this signifies a repeated process consecutively throughout one day. In other words, the 'LI' in LIDULUK means that the sun will 'decline' more than one time; at noon, afternoon, and sunset.

The 'LIDULUK (repeated-declining) of the sun' explains precisely the 'TARAFAY (two portions) of the day' as well as the 1st part of 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



GHASAQ

{17:78} Establish the Salat ... until GHASAQ (darkness) of the night...

GHASAQ comes from the root GHA SA QA and it means 'darkness'... As mentioned earlier, the night (LAYL) begins at sunset. The fact that God says GHASAQ AL LAYAL (Darkness of the night) means that we are to establish the Salat when the sky turns completely dark.

To establish the Salat until 'GHASSAQ (darkness) of the night' precisely coincides with the 2nd part of 'ZULAFAN (near parts) from the night' in 11:114.



QURAN AT DAWN

{17:78} Establish the Salat... and [establish the] QURAN at dawn

Linguistically, the word 'and' in this verse is tied to the word 'establish' so the phrase '...and Quran at dawn' is a twofold command: Establishing salat at dawn, and establishing reading Quran at dawn.



NAMES OF THE SALAT IN THE QURAN

Besides the Dawn (fajr) and Evening (isha) Salats (24:58), the Quran does not provide names for the rest of the 3 Salats. The names of the Salat are therefore left up to us (the humans).

Keep in mind that what we name each of our Salat is ultimately of insignificance because these are just mere labels; they are for conventional purposes. What matters is establishing them at their appropriate times (4:103). Traditionally, the 5 Salats are named as:
Noon (thuhr)
Afternoon ('asr)
Sunset (magrib)
Night (Isha)
Dawn (fajr)



CONCLUSIONS

•   There are 5 specified times of Salat mentioned in the Quran ordained by the straightforward command to AQIM AL SALAH (Establish the Salat).
•   {11:114} speaks of the number of Salats:
   {11:114} Establish the Salat at the TARAFAY of the day and ZULAFAN from the night.
   TARAFAY = dual (2 Salats)
    ZULAFAN = plural (3 Salats)

•   {17:78} speaks of the duration of each of the five Salats

{17:78} Establish the Salat LIDULUK of the sun until GHASSAQ of the night and Quran at dawn.
   LIDULUK (repeated-declining) = 3 Salats (noon, afternoon, sunset)
   GHASAQ (darkness) =  1 Salat (night)
   Quran at Dawn = 1 Salat (dawn)



.



Peace
Joe S.








Offline Saba

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #36 on: February 15, 2014, 09:30:24 AM »
Salaams br Wakas.. I know 'sujud' was discussed at the start of this thread and  br. Joseph already responded to you on this....but  I also found a parallel and helpful discussion where similar problems were being highlighted with your method with words / the qur'an.. sjd etc and the way you study the qur'an. I really liked Mohsin7's response to you which I think for me really highlights your weaknesses in your arguments..(no disrespect intended) ...I wanted to share this thread with everyone here too. i think it all goes back to the same problem that i think u are trying to fit one meaning of the work in all contexts. sometimes SJD just means physical prostration!!

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606251.msg347588#msg347588


Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #37 on: February 15, 2014, 11:07:50 AM »
Salaam Saba


Oh Boy...loool   ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #38 on: February 15, 2014, 12:38:04 PM »
Salam Wakas,

I went a step further and copied and pasted you explaination on prostration

When I consider an argument I like to have all the evidence on the table, then weigh up each option and go with the one that is most evidenced/logical.

So, let's sum up:

The Quran has multiple verses wherein humans are doing SJD in which it cannot mean physical prostration. It has no verse wherein humans doing SJD clearly meaning physical prostration.

The Quran clearly says believers are to SJD when Quran is relayed to them. You take this as a non-prostration SJD.
However, when this would occur in salat in 4:102 you take SJD to mean a physical prostration.

Your view on 4:102 requires an unwarranted assumption wherein allegedly God didn't mention SJD in the rain/illness exceptions but it is allegedly included.

A somewhat modified salat performance due to carrying of weapons. For sake of argument, let's say a minor modification.


As I said, theoretically possible, not credible. Readers can make up their own minds however.


Perhaps a larger question, is the can of worms it opens up if one adopts your approach to Quran:



Quote from: Mohsin7

Hence, the physical aspect of Salat with a physical prostration can not be invalidated using the Quran since nowhere does the Quran explicitly say that Salat/SJD are never to be performed physically.



Your reasoning above essentially is "...since nowhere does the Quran say that sjd cannot mean physical prostration".

Well, Quran doesn't say a lot of things, e.g.

The Quran doesn't say that [insert Quranic word here] cannot mean [insert Classical Arabic dictionary meaning here] thus, according to you, it can mean that in a Quran occurrence.

Good luck with that approach. That is not my approach.


Are you kidding me? So what does it mean? You are leading people astray and ONLY an INSANE person would EVER believe anything you say about the Quran verses and their meaning. I am sorry, but you are gone astray and CLEARLY MISGUIDED than from what you started out to be. PLEASE stop your corruption of Allah's words!!!!!

I am sorry brother, the Shaytan has a hold of you and has his chains wrapped all around you. Do you not FEAR Allah at all? I simply would Ask Allah for forgiveness brother, repent, and ask Him to guide you.... Your HEART is sealed from Him. It is only evident.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #39 on: February 19, 2014, 02:24:48 AM »
Physical  Prostration.  48:29
--------------------------------
مُّحَمَّدٌ رَّسُولُ اللَّهِ وَالَّذِينَ مَعَهُ أَشِدَّاءُ عَلَى الْكُفَّارِ رُحَمَاءُ بَيْنَهُمْ تَرَاهُمْ رُكَّعًا سُجَّدًا يَبْتَغُونَ فَضْلًا مِّنَ اللَّهِ وَرِضْوَانًا سِيمَاهُمْ فِي وُجُوهِهِم مِّنْ أَثَرِ السُّجُودِ ذَٰلِكَ مَثَلُهُمْ فِي التَّوْرَاةِ وَمَثَلُهُمْ فِي الْإِنجِيلِ كَزَرْعٍ أَخْرَجَ شَطْأَهُ فَآزَرَهُ فَاسْتَغْلَظَ فَاسْتَوَىٰ عَلَىٰ سُوقِهِ يُعْجِبُ الزُّرَّاعَ لِيَغِيظَ بِهِمُ الْكُفَّارَ وَعَدَ اللَّهُ الَّذِينَ آمَنُوا وَعَمِلُوا الصَّالِحَاتِ مِنْهُم مَّغْفِرَةً وَأَجْرًا عَظِيمًا
48:29
Muhammad is the Apostle of Allah, and those with him are firm of heart against the unbelievers, compassionate among themselves; you will see them bowing down, prostrating themselves, seeking grace from Allah and pleasure; their marks are in their faces because of the effect of prostration; that is their description in the Taurat and their description in the Injeel; like as seed-produce that puts forth its sprout, then strengthens it, so it becomes stout and stands firmly on its stem, delighting the sowers that He may enrage the unbelievers on account of them; Allah has promised those among them who believe and do good, forgiveness and a great reward.
------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Salam All, Usually some people who oppose Five times Salath say that Physical Prostration is Immodest in the mixed gathering in Mosque where men & women offer Salath. Only one Ayaat mentioned above is enough to refute their claim.The meaning of Sujda may be submission but it refers to physical prostration in Quran. Some people quote Hasan Basry to have expressed Sajda being immodest which on not true as when we don't believe in Ahadith how can we believe one's personal view
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline AbbsRay

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #40 on: February 19, 2014, 03:15:37 AM »
Salaam Sardar,

When praying in a mosque, male or female praying next to each other or whatever... When they are prostrating their eyes usually will be looking down and having full focus on the prayer and connecting with Allah. So people using excuses as immodest are ONLY fake believers and misguided in my opnion.

The 5 prayers are all contact prayer which is bowing and prostration... Memorizing Allah throughout the day or night also is different and not the 5 prayers... People just want to justify things to make it less of an obligatory or their egos got in the way and they have gone astray and think they are on the right path.

If people can't control their hormones looking at people's rears when they are worshipping their lord and completely submitting physically, emotionally and completely mentally than there's only one thing left to say... Sexual deviants who's eyes, mind and thoughts are always wondering.. Lol

I read one of the forums on here about some muslims who do not believe in the Miricles mentioned in the Quran... Doesn't surprise me... they are not really believers. It's that straight forward.
It doesn't mean when someone doesn't understand the verses... They start making definitions to explain the verse(s).



Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #41 on: February 19, 2014, 08:59:52 AM »
The Bro& Sisters discussing the Five daily Salath may have to observe by the practical & historical aspect also. While Quran tells about Five Daily Salath & Haj we also see the continuity ( Tawaatur ) of the same right from the period of our Prophet  to the present time. The Haj & Salath are being performed continiously without break. Therefore there are Five Daily Salath which is practical side of Quranic Revealtion and all Muslims have to accept & follow implicitly without arguing themselves. There is no point in prolonged discussions & arguments when we see the performance five daily prayers is done. Thanks for sharing.

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Offline Wakas

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #42 on: February 19, 2014, 09:54:44 PM »
salaam sardar,

Only one Ayaat mentioned above is enough to refute their claim.The meaning of Sujda may be submission but it refers to physical prostration in Quran.

I recommend reading the article referenced:

Quote
48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.

It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50.
The word "seema" (root: Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2:273, 7:46, 7:48, 47:30, 55:41. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.

Offline Sardar Miyan

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #43 on: February 20, 2014, 12:52:04 AM »
Bro Wakas , I wanted our Forum friends to take notice of my ascertion about the Tawaatur ( Continuity) of Salath & Haj which are being performed from the time of our Prophet which is enough for the present generation to believe & uphold the Five Daily Salath but you have not commented on this aspect.
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Offline Wakas

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Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #44 on: February 20, 2014, 06:03:22 AM »
My only comment would be speculation. The Quranic evidence is little, and requires significant interpretation.

If there was such a thing, I'd expect something as important as that would be mentioned in a clear manner.