Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1853
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #45 on: February 20, 2014, 07:29:19 AM »
...I wanted our Forum friends to take notice of my ascertion about the Tawaatur ( Continuity) of Salath & Haj which are being performed from the time of our Prophet which is enough for the present generation to believe & uphold ...

As-salam alaykum brother Sardar

As you will have noted, there is Quranic evidence to support the fact that believers are expected to follow best practice in the form of continuity especially when the establishment of that practice in essence finds provenance in scripture. 

For example, in a dialogue with the Children of Israel, one notes the instruction in the Quran for them to 'bow with those that bow'
 
002.043 (Part)
"... and bow down your heads (Arabic: ir'ka'u) with those who bow down (Arabic: raki'een) (in worship)"

This act of congregational obedience finds historic roots and is propagated en masse. It remains attested since the time of Prophet Abraham (pbuh) (22:26) and would have most likely been followed by all true monotheists generation to generation. Otherwise, the instruction above would have been meaningless.
 
Similarly, in the case of Mary, one notes a historic directive, once again affirming the need for congregational prayer obedience which again was historic in nature.

003.043
"O Mary! Be obedient to your Lord and prostrate and bow down (Arabic: wa-ir'ka'i) with those who bow down (Arabic: raki'een)"

Therefore, to follow 'best practice' does indeed find Quranic support, certainly when such a practice is in line with the guidance proffered by scripture.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph


REFERENCE

[1] THE IMPORTANCE OF CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/congregational%20prayer%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2014, 08:05:30 AM »
Thanks I was drawing attention of Bro Wakas while he was asserting on Two Salath daily. Therefore I drew his attention to the best practice of Continivity
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2014, 03:14:47 AM »
salaam brothers Joseph, Sardar, all,

The assumption in your reply to br. Sardar being that "rk3" and "sjd and rk3" refers to a congregational prayer.

Some may not consider the above clear, unequivocal and cogent with regard to Quranic evidence.

Let us all bear in mind that when it comes to alleged continuity of practice, it cannot contradict Quran, thus whatever alleged practice one finds, one should confirm it via Quran regardless.

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #48 on: February 23, 2014, 12:49:48 AM »
Can you explain as to how the continuity of Haj & Salath contradict Quran?Dr Shabbir writes that Salath ( Namaz) was invented by HAROON Rasheed's Mother Kaizaran but earlier to Haroon Rasheed Imam Anas Bin Malik wrote about Salath being performed during the ministry of Prophet. How can one deny this ?
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #49 on: February 23, 2014, 04:38:57 AM »
Can you explain as to how the continuity of Haj & Salath contradict Quran?

To do so would require a lengthy discussion. There are elements of each that are problematic in my view and I have discussed these issues on free-minds forum and I wrote an article on al hajj. A good place to start would be to research those posts and article. Please do not post about al hajj on this thread, as I would like to keep this thread about the timings of the regular/timed salat, and meaning of sujud.

Offline Sardar Miyan

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 970
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #50 on: February 26, 2014, 02:54:42 AM »
Please do not direct us as to what to write & what not on this forum be restricted to you own opinion .We dont want to go to free mind forum to go through your blogs. I was just telling the CONTINUITY of Salath & Haj which are part of following
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline Saba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #51 on: March 04, 2014, 12:30:25 PM »
Here is another absolutely brilliant response to br Wakas's repeated desire to interpret SJD differently ..... Had to share!



Quote
Salaam Wakas,


Quote
Quran could have clarified if sjd meant physical prostration in 4:102 by saying something similar...


The Quran could have clarified lots of things, and yet it didn't. It didn't clarify what it meant by swimming, running, fighting, nor did it clarify many verses on punishments. Why should the Quran 'clarify' the meaning of a word that everyone already knows? The answer is the opposite - the Quran clarified the non-physical uses of the word which everyone already knew and accepted as being physical. The same way the Quran clarified that "swimming" SBH does not literally mean swimming in water, despite everyone knowing perfectly well that that's what it means.

By your standards and treatment of sujood we should now have to reinterpret yasbahu because God never clarifies that it also means swimming in water.

Quote
Or perhaps in 17:107-109 could have mentioned being on the ground in some way.

It does clarify that. You've just ignored it because you are forcing your own interpretation onto the verses. The meaning of being on the ground is absolutely clear in these verses, and even your idol Mustansir Mir takes this position. I don't know how God could've made it clearer without writing out specifically "get onto the ground people". Sujood is paired with KHRR throughout the Quran.


Quote
Anyone who has read Quran434.com will know otherwise. I relied significantly on Quranic usage, its internal logic etc.

You analyzed every occurrence of the word DRB to argue that DRB can mean something other than 'strike'.

Now you have overwhelming evidence that KHRR means to physically fall, and you ignore it.



Quote
Wrong. See 25:73, which is even quoted in my sjd article.

This can easily be interpreted as a physical action. It goes both ways, but I think the physical action here is a better interpretation.

I interpret it as criticizing the people who go to pray whilst thinking about what they had for lunch that day, or what they want to do. You see these people in the mosques, they do some lightning prayer and leave. The context of the verse is an extended description of the characteristics of the righteous people. Then this verse says:

Those who when they are reminded of their Lord's signs, they do not fall deaf and blind thereat.

Literal: they do not fall on the reminder/verses deaf and blind


I interpret this as a continuation of the description of the righteous people. We are told that the righteous are the ones who stay late into the night in sujood and qiyaam, they pass by trivial talk with dignity, and they do not prostrate when they are reminded to without heart and khushoo3 in a mechanical fashion.

I don't know how else to interpret this verse in a non-physical manner. You argue that KHRR means to be humbled elsewhere in the Quran. How is one humbled deaf and blind? Or the other interpretation is to "fall" on the verses (ayat) as if to attack them. Again, not in line with the context at all. In your article you state that it means to fall on the verses - ie: read them without care, as if deaf and blind. This is ok, it fits, but I don't consider it the correct interpretation.
Clearly the intention here is to warn against mechanical prostration and prayer done without heart. That is why the non-righteous simply "fall" at hearing God's verses, whereas the righteous fall in sujood - because it is not sujood without the emotional component, otherwise it simply becomes falling to the ground deaf and blind.



But let's assume that it does not mean physical falling for the sake of avoiding an argument about this particular verse - we are still left with 6 out of 7 incidences where KHRR definitely means falling.

If we remove all the verses that have KHRR Sujjadan and 17:109, we are left with 7 occurrences.

Of those occurrences KHRR means to physically fall each and every time except for this one that you don't want to interpret as falling. 38:24 is not 100% clear, so let's exclude that. And 34:14 means both falling down and death. (The worm gnaws at his staff so he falls (dies)).

So - we have 6 out of 7 occurrences that clearly mean physical falling, with only 1 verse that is unclear and can be both.

So by your standards, this is a pretty clear indication of what KHRR means.





Quote
In the exampels you gave, can you clarify if they have the same structure as the example we are discussing in 17:107, quote from article:


i.e.
idiom + accusative word


When I find an idiom followed by an accusative adjective I'll let you know. Off the top of my head I can't think of any.





But let's summarize what we know -


1. Like swimming, running, and other Arabic words, the accepted definition of Sujood to pre-Islamic Arabs is prostration. We have examples of pre-Islamic poetry that clearly shows us they thought Sujood = prostration. From the Encyclopaedia of the Quran, Vol. 4 Page 219:

Sujūd was known among the peoples of the Middle East in pre-Islamic times as a gesture of respect at royal courts and as an act of adoration in Christian worship. Pre-Islamic poetry cites a few examples of prostration (sujūd) before a tribal chief in recognition of his superiority and as an expression of one’s submission (cf. Tottoli, Muslim attitudes, 5-34).
The act of prostration hurt the pride (q.v.) of the Arabs (Q 25:60; 7:206; cf. 16:49; 32:15; 68:42-3) because it appeared to them as a humiliating gesture and an alien practice (cf. Kister, Some reports, 3-6).


2. KHRR is used as physically falling in every single other case (or all except one if we accept your contention regarding 25:73)

3. Idioms where the action happens and a non-literal word is added for intensity are common. (I'm so hungry I can eat a horse, it is raining cats and dogs, etc.)


4. The phrase is falling to the chins. lil-adhqaani. Not 3alaa al-adhqaani, which would be the normal way to say it in arabic.


5. We have an actual recorded example of this phrase as a popular Arab saying. It was common enough and well known enough to end up in Lane's Lexicon as an idiom! Lane specifically recorded for us examples of trees and stones falling to their chins!


6. You've challenged me to explain how the idiom could work and I have explained it. In turn, please explain verses such as 19:58

إِذَا تُتْلَى عَلَيْهِمْ آيَاتُ الرَّحْمَن خَرُّوا سُجَّدًا وَبُكِيًّا

You are arguing that sujjadan is a metaphor, or a non-literal meaning of the accepted word, whereas bakiyyan (crying) is literally physical crying. God never clarifies how to cry, just as he never clarifies how to perform sujood, and relies on our knowledge of the language. So either we must assume that one is literal and one isn't, or that SJD did not originally mean prostration and there has been a massive conspiracy to get people to perform physical prostration when the original word had no such meaning.



7. The Quran pairs SJD with KHRR repeatedly. 12:100 (kharruu lahu sujjadan), 17:107 (yukhirruuna lilidhqaani sujjadan), 19:58 (kharruu sujjadan wa bakiyyaa), 32:15 (kharruu sujjadan) - why is God using the word "fall" throughout the Quran with SJD to a bunch of people who think SJD means prostration??


8. If the point of KHRR is to express humility in 17:107 and 17:109 and elsewhere, then why not use the many words used in the Quran already for humility?? Why repeat KHRR with sujood so many times instead of saying "humble yourselves sujjadan" ? There are many choices, for example DR3, KHBT, KHSH3, 3NW,



Peace


Words like Sujud are well known to Arabic speaking people all over the world. Even in the Qur'an it can mean physical prostrations...!!!

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606251.30

Offline Wakas

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 538
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #52 on: March 05, 2014, 06:21:04 AM »
Dear saba,

Quote from: saba
Words like Sujud are well known to Arabic speaking people all over the world. Even in the Qur'an it can mean physical prostrations...!!!

It is unfortunate that some seem to be unable to read what I write carefully. For example, you will note in my article on sujud nowhere do I state sujud cannot mean prostration, and I even say such body-physical acts can be done. I simply point out that it doesn't seem possible to make a credible argument from Quran that sujud=prostration, and thus during the regular/timed salat.

Again, as with br. Mazhar's post, I find it telling you consider br. ths' post "absolutely brilliant" when it is riddled with errors and logical fallacies (hence why my reply to him was limited, and brought it back to the original point we were discussing).

But I thank you for linking to the thread where the discussion can be read, which was primarily about 4:102 - wherein many people take sujud to mean prostration, whereas myself, br. Joseph and others do not.


Those who listen to what is being said, then follow the best of it.
These are the ones God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.

[Al Quran, 39:18]

Offline Saba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
    • View Profile
Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
« Reply #53 on: March 05, 2014, 07:06:25 PM »

    THEREFORE IN SUMMARY:
     
    • SJD primarily means to show humility, submissiveness, to be humbled, show reverence, salute, honour, pay regards, respects etc
    • Different creations of God show their humility and submissiveness in different ways
    • Physical prostration is only one way humans show their humility (SJD)
    • A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied.
    [/u]
    [/list]

    Salaam br. Wakas, I am not sure I agree with you that you and br. Joseph are on the same page here. I re-read the whole of the first page of this thread where you discussed this with him......It seems you cannot accept that a word can have different meanings and as I think you can't speak Arabic, you find that troublesome as you can't determine what word to fit where. ....like an english person will know what a specific word means in various sentences....non-english speaker like a chinese will get confused if he or she only had a dictionary to go on...That is your problem with Arabic.

    Anyway,,, I'll re-share the articles below of br. joseph to show what his views are on this..... I see it this way - sjd is prostration when it refers to humans when they revere Allah (swt).... masjid is a place where worshippers do SJD for Allah (swt). simple! you can make it as complex as you like, but that is it for me.  Saba   

    REFERENCES:

    [1] SAJDA e-TILAWAT - UNDERSTANDING THE TRADITION
    http://quransmessage.com/articles/st%20FM3.htm
    [2] WHAT IS THE QURANIC SUJUD (PROSTRATION)?
    http://quransmessage.com/articles/sujud%20FM3.htm

    Offline Wakas

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 538
      • View Profile
      • What does The Quran really say?
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #54 on: March 05, 2014, 09:28:47 PM »
    Dear saba,
     
    You quoted reply #9. Please see later in reply #11 where br. Joseph clarified.
     
    I asked br. Joseph:
    Can you clarify that you do not take the SJD in 4:102 to mean prostration as you said:
    "You have respectfully, yet without warrant, inferred a 'physical prostration'. If we simply allow the primary meaning of the word SJD to remain operative (i.e. SJD = humility, pay respect, honour, salute and humble), then salat can end once the spiritual experience of prayer is completed irrespective of whether or not this means a physical prostration."
    but then later said
    "'Fa'idha sajadu' (Then when they have prostrated)".

    Do you mean "then when they have paid respect" or similar?

    br. Joseph replied (bold mine):
    Yes that is correct. I explained what I meant by 'Then when they have prostrated' as simply referring to 'the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration.

    Offline Saba

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 272
    • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
      • View Profile
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #55 on: March 05, 2014, 10:17:27 PM »
    Hmmm. Interesting! . Thank u for sharing that. I will go through this thread again to get to the bottom of this. Thanks .br. Wakas. Saba 

    Offline Sardar Miyan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 970
      • View Profile
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #56 on: March 06, 2014, 01:39:10 AM »
    Yes Sister Saba I need your reply after comparison of replies so that we may know the real facts. Thanks for sharing.
    May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

    Offline Sardar Miyan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 970
      • View Profile
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #57 on: April 19, 2014, 10:27:55 AM »
    Salam Sister Saba, Do I have to draw your kind attention to your reply that you would compare replies & come up with reply later. I am waiting for your kind reply in this regard. Thanks
    May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

    Offline Saba

    • Sr. Member
    • ****
    • Posts: 272
    • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
      • View Profile
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #58 on: April 19, 2014, 07:23:33 PM »
    Salaam Sardar,

    Basically from what I get from all of this is that br. Joseph is saying that 'yes' that the primary meaning of SJD means humility to pay respect, honor etc etc. But it is the context that tells us if a physical prostration is the meaning ... one way of showing respect to Allah (swt) is through physical prostration. No doubt about it ..... IMHO a lot of Qur'anists don't like this real fact. That is why br. joseph  says"the condition when they have completed their reverence to God (i.e. their prayer). This may or may not include prostration."

    So this means that physical prostration can also be the correct meaning

    Br. Joseph tells us clearly his view in another article that:

    Quote
    "SJD means to become submissive, humble, to make obeisance, lowly, to pay respect, or to even bend down (bowing) and prostrate. This root word forms other words such as 'Masjid' which is a place where 'SJD' takes place."

    Quote
    "A study of the Quranic narratives clearly reveal that the term 'Sujud' admits different shades of meanings and carries different nuances depending on context. The term 'Sujud' does not always imply a physical prostration to the ground."

    He also said in a post which I quoted earlier that ....

    Quote
    "A physical prostration is not only performed by humans in worship but also out of deep respect for another. However, in a state of prayer to God, a physical rendition of the term is often implied."

    ...also as Sword showed here ----> http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=1200.msg5571#msg5571 in another post ...in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is meant according to br. Joseph...

    I reckon that as some Quranists can't speak Arabic,  this may be a big problem for them as they may think that 'traditionalists' will take whatever meaning they want.  But this is wrong...so so wrong ...IMHO its only certain Qur'anists that don't know any Arabic and mainly use dictionaries that find this a big big problem...so a lot of them fight over meanings arguing non-stop.... Just like English speaking people know what a word means in a context .....so do people who speak Arabic.

    Therefore, I agree with br joseph that in verse 48.29, a physical prostration is the proper meaning. I don't think there is any proof against it ... just a lot of 'maybe' 'maybe' 'maybe' and more 'maybe' from a lot of Qur'anists. That is also where the marks on the forehead come from.

    Also I have a q for you br Sardar...you clearly believe in 5 salaat and prostration.. so why do you keep asking these questions? you see i think that asking these q over and over again you are only going to cause trouble between those who have different views on this and have said all they have to say.. I think it causes trouble...don't take it personally or anything but putting questions out just for the sake of arguments is not really nice unless if you have a question that you are unsure about...just my two cents ..... Saba

    Offline Sardar Miyan

    • Hero Member
    • *****
    • Posts: 970
      • View Profile
    Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas
    « Reply #59 on: April 19, 2014, 08:51:34 PM »
    Thank you Saba Actually it was me who has posted this Ayaah to stress that the Mark of Sujood would be on the foreheads of Muslims on account of Sajda.
    May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light