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Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #45 on: October 08, 2012, 08:12:32 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

Your recent posts have been removed.

As I mentioned before, please can you answer or contribute directly on the board without giving links to lengthy articles. I note there is no author mentioned on the analysis you have shared so I am assuming this is your work. Please note forum policy 2 (f) and 2 (j) as has already been mentioned.

This forum should not be used as an advertising platform. It is better that you provide your conclusions first clearly. Then if need be, an appropriate link to back it up with reference to the author or the analysis.

This will make it easier and clear for the readers to know exactly where you stand and what point you are trying to make. Readers can then respond appropriately.

Thanks.


Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2012, 06:13:56 AM »
w/salaam TS,

Is the admin of the forum yourself or Brother Joseph or QM Moderator - or are you all one and the same person? Please clarify.

You claim "advertisement" yet my post was on topic AND I was asked by fellow forum members to back-up what I said and clarify.

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It is better that you provide your conclusions first clearly. Then if need be, an appropriate link to back it up with reference to the author or the analysis.

Which is what I did. In any case...

If I have understood you correctly, you wish me to state my conclusions first then present evidence later? Sounds a bit like putting the cart before the horse if you ask me, but if this is how you do things here, let me know and I shall.

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2012, 07:33:30 AM »
Salaam Wakas,

There are several different administrators on this forum of which I am one.

All I am stating is that you give your opinion or an explanation of what you think about a topic within the thread. If after that somebody requests that you go into more detail, then by all means you can provide them a link, rather than giving a link in the first instance.

This way, everybody will be clear about your position without having to click on links in order to understand your views. Please also make sure that your explanations are succinct.

The reason I say advertising is because you mainly provide links to your own work without informing the board clearly that you are the author.

Thanks.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #48 on: October 10, 2012, 02:44:16 AM »
salaam all,

My understanding is as follows:

The Quranic evidence weighs the evidence in favour of SuJuD meaning "to submit/honour/pay respect".

"masjid" meaning "time of SJD"

"al masjid al haram" meaning "the inviolable time of SJD" (i.e. the term referring to the time-period/event of the inviolable months).

This understanding provides a logical, coherent and practical answer throughout, and helps answer some of the most difficult questions in Quran exegesis (e.g. 17:1, 2:142-150).


Notes:
For SJD above you can substitute from "submission", "paying respect", "honour", i.e. any of the SuJuD meanings above.
By "inviolable months" I am referring to "al ashhur al hurum" mentioned in Quran.


If you require evidence and clarification for the above, please state so here and I will provide it, and if you wish to discuss such an understanding in detail I can create a new thread.

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #49 on: October 10, 2012, 03:13:16 AM »
Salaam Wakas

In verse 48:29 it says "The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration (sjd). Given your definition which I note does not include physical prostration, how do these marks appear? Saba

http://www.islamawakened.com/quran/48/29/default.htm

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #50 on: October 10, 2012, 06:07:32 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

I would request for the final time that you respond within the thread when a question is put to you. If the moderators deem it appropriate, a new thread will be made for topics by them. I do not approve of you creating other threads in response to questions that are asked of you.

If this continues, you will be removed from this forum.

Thanks

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #51 on: October 10, 2012, 07:29:51 PM »
Peace Wakas,

From a personal perspective, your presence on this forum is very welcomed.  However, please can I kindly ask that you respect the moderators requests and that of this forum and provide direct responses to questions on the thread. I appreciate that this approach may be different to what you are used to on the forums you moderate, but as you will no doubt appreciate, each board / forum assesses its own best approach.

I have also asked the moderators to 'run a tight ship', a consistent, disciplined and effective approach regardless of the vast theological perspectives that may be presented or what they may refer to themselves as (Parwaizi, Astaana, 19ers, Submitters, Quranists, Quran-aloners, Reformists, traditional Sunni, Shia and all the various sectarian divides in-between)

Of course, I would not want the quality of this forum to in any way denegrate, reflect the poor posts or lack of decorum that is at times present on other boards. I would like this forum to represent seasoned, well argued, academic, evidence based perspectives which I am sure you will concur with too. It is always about quality over quantity of posts / content.

As you will know, there is already a plethora of misinformation abound. I seek not to add to it by allowing this forum to become a repository for a quagmire of thoughts in flux. Hence my focus, and I trust you will respect my outlook on this matter.

On a separate note, my apologies to all those that are still awaiting responses to their questions. I am endeavouring hard to respond to the queries that are asked of me. God willing, I shall get to your questions asked on this forum too. May I only kindly ask, that you if could please ensure that your questions are well founded after some deliberation on your own part as the time I can afford to answering questions can be very limited. Therefore at times, I may appear to be selective in response based on the popularity of the questions that I generally receive.

With utmost respect,
Joseph.

PS: Thanks Truthseeker (and others) for your assistance on the board.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #52 on: October 10, 2012, 09:14:02 PM »
w/salaam TS,

The reason for the new thread was simple. This thread is about "Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca)  while praying ?" and I was asked a question on marks on one's face from sujud. Now, whilst I'm sure one can link the two, to me, it is off-topic.

I am a member of several forums and moderate some, and to me, it is disrespectful to derail another's thread and discuss something off-topic. It seems you do not mind this in this instance.

As per your forum rules:
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(l)     Links to external websites must be relevant to the topic. Where they are deemed to be inappropriate, they will be removed.



Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #53 on: October 10, 2012, 09:26:30 PM »
w/salaam Joseph,

As I'm sure you are aware, I too have a preference for quality over quantity. And I'm sure you are also aware I have spent much time/effort/money in improving the standard of quality when it comes to Quran study, via StudyQuran.org and other projects etc.

You may have asked your moderators to run a tight ship but in this instance let's be clear, we are talking about the creation of a new dedicated thread to discuss something in detail, on something that is not the original topic of this thread. Hardly worthy of a threat to ban such a member.

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As you will know, there is already a plethora of misinformation abound. I seek not to add to it by allowing this forum to become a repository for a quagmire of thoughts in flux. Hence my focus, and I trust you will respect my outlook on this matter.

I hope you are making a general statement only, and not one specific to me. Anyone who has read my thousands of posts on Quran topics, read my articles etc will know that I am very careful in what I write, and it is rare to find the content unevidenced by way of Quran and/or reason. And lastly, I am open to discussion on anything I have written, in fact, I welcome it. As I like to say "I'd rather be corrected in this life than the next".

Regards,
Wakas

Offline Truth Seeker

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #54 on: October 10, 2012, 09:39:38 PM »
Salaam Wakas,

I have made clear to you how the moderators would like the format to run. Respectfully, if you cannot keep to the format, then your posts will be deleted.

To reiterate:

Step 1: Respond directly within the thread stating your views clearly.
Step 2: Only if a further request is made by a member for you to provide detailed evidence of your stance, then feel free to provide a link.

The question Saba asked you was directly related to your post. I do not see anything disrespectful. Please respond within the thread in future.

I have reposted the relevant part of your response to Saba's question in order to keep the discussion within the thread. 

Thanks

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Salaam Wakas

In verse 48:29 it says "The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration (sjd). Given your definition which I note does not include physical prostration, how do these marks appear? Saba

w/salaam,

Good question.

Please see part 1: http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-of-SuJuD-from-Quran.html


48:29 Muhammad is the messenger of God, and those who are with him are stern against the concealers/rejecters/ingrates, but merciful between themselves. You see them inclining/humbling and SuJaD, seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval. Their distinction is in their faces/attentions/considerations/wills/purposes, from the trace/teaching/influence of the SuJuD. Such is their example in the Torah. And their example in the Injeel is like a seed/crop which sends forth its shoot then strengthened it then becomes thick then stands upon its stem, pleasing to the sowers. That He may enrage the rejecters/concealers with them. God promises those who believe and do good works a forgiveness and a great reward.
It is interesting to note the preposition "fi" (in) not "ala" (on), making it "their distinction/mark is IN their faces/wills/purposes/considerations". Minority usage of "fi" can mean on/at however.
The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50.
The word "seema" (root: Siin-Waw-Miim) means an identifying feature (e.g. could be the way someone looks or acts) see 2:273, 7:46, 7:48, 47:30, 55:41. Perhaps the majority of people would not have a trace of prostration on their face from physically prostrating in prayer for example, even if it was done many times per day, so this understanding, whilst superficially plausible, actually falls short. Some translators, e.g. Asad, do not take it to mean a physical mark on one's face.
It should be noted that "inclining and SJD" seems to relate to "seeking bounty from God and pleasure/approval" whose other occurrences relate to worldly benefits/provisions.
It should be noted that in the prior context, 48:25, it clearly implies some believers were unknown/unrecognisable, which makes it even more unlikely it is referring to a physical mark on one's face.
The "them" refers to the believers undergoing such growth. It may also imply that actualising oneself under the guidance of God's system leads to self-growth and benefits. There is an implication that the act of SJD can function as a catalyst to such growth, as it leaves an impression/influence upon such a person, thus the demeanor stems from that act/mindset, and results in fruitful growth and reward, and this is the message encapsulated in the example at the end. To achieve such effective growth, one's will/consideration/purpose/attention should be traceable back to the act of SJD.

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #55 on: October 10, 2012, 09:46:40 PM »
w/salaam saba,

In verse 48:29 it says "The mark of them is on their faces from the traces of prostration (sjd). Given your definition which I note does not include physical prostration, how do these marks appear? Saba

Good question. See TS' post above. However, the latter part of that post is missing, which also covers the question, shown below:


Source
Quote
48:24 And He is the One who withheld their hands against you, and your hands against them in midst/interior (of) crowding/MaKKah, after He had made you victorious over them. God is Seer of what you do.
48:25 They are those who concealed/rejected and hindered you from/concerning* al maSJD al haram, and prevented the offering/gift from reaching its permitted/lawful place. And if not for believing men and believing women whom you did not know, that you may trample them so would befall you from them sin without knowledge, that God may admit in His mercy whomever He wills. If they had been apart** surely We would then have punished those who concealed/rejected among them with a painful retribution.
48:26 When those who concealed/rejected had put in their hearts disdain, the disdain of the ignorance, then God sent down His tranquility upon His messenger and upon the believers, and made them adhere to the word of righteousness/God-consciousness, and they were more deserving of it and worthy of it. And God is fully aware of all things.
48:27 Certainly, God has confirmed His messenger's vision*** with truth/reality, surely you (plural) will enter al masjid al haram, if God wills, securing/trusting, unburdening/relieving your chiefs/representatives****, and restraining/relinquishing not fearing. So, He knew what you did not know, and He made besides that a victory near/close.
48:28 He is the One who sent His messenger with the guidance and the system/obligation of truth, so that it would expose all other systems. And God is sufficient as a witness.
*Arabic: AAani is a preposition and can mean: from, of, for, about, concerning.
**implies they are all mixed together. One possible meaning of MKK is "crowding" hence the rendition above (Ref: one, two, three). Could also be a reference to 8:33.
*** Arabic: 'al ruya' (dream/vision), see analysis of 17:1-7 and 17:60
**** see discussion of 2:196 above. Many translators interpolate "hair" and imply the "wa/and" which follows means "or" to make their rendition fit better.

48:25 implies both believing men and women were present and out in public and were unknown to the believers addressed. Note the possible link between this and the utilisation of AMAH in 2:148-150 in bringing you all together and completing of God's favour.
"not fearing" likely implies that it is possible to enter AMAH fearing, and perhaps previously the believers did so. See in conjunction with 2:114.
As a side note, 48:25 clearly implies that it would not be possible to identify believers amongst the people, thus interpretations of 48:29 that imply a physical mark upon believer's faces (from prostrating) is highly unlikely.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #56 on: October 10, 2012, 09:53:00 PM »
Dear Wakas,

Peace.

I hope you are making a general statement only, and not one specific to me.

Of course  :) The context of the previous 2 paragraphs should have made it clear that my comment was only intended to be general. Nothing personal at all and I also feel that you would agree with its general sentiment.


And lastly, I am open to discussion on anything I have written, in fact, I welcome it. As I like to say "I'd rather be corrected in this life than the next".

I admire the sentiment, however 'generally', I have seen many make similar statements, but when counter evidence / stronger evidence is presented, it is often rebuked out of hand to defend a peddled bias theology. I am sure you must have seen this for yourself in many academic discussions that you are / been part of.

God willing, let us all work together respecting each other's boundaries for the pursuance of knowledge.

Thanks to all who are / have participated in the discussions thus far.  :)

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Saba

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #57 on: October 12, 2012, 12:32:15 AM »
Salaam Wakas, You said ......

Quote
The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50.

A trace is left due to SJD  - Athar also means physical mark, trace, 40:21, 40:82, 20:84. So what clear 'evidence' do you have that the mark here CANNOT be due to a physical prostration? Thanks Saba

Offline HOPE

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #58 on: October 12, 2012, 01:08:24 AM »
Peace Saba,

One more sister: 30:9
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

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Re: Why should we face towards the Kaaba(mecca) while praying ?
« Reply #59 on: October 12, 2012, 03:14:33 AM »
w/salaam saba,

Quote
Athar also means physical mark, trace, 40:21, 40:82, 20:84. So what clear 'evidence' do you have that the mark here CANNOT be due to a physical prostration? Thanks Saba

Firstly, I am not disputing it can mean physical mark/trace, as is clear from what I wrote:

"The word "athar" (root: Alif-Tha-Ra) basically means "that which is left behind from something" hence its meanings such as trace/mark/impression/teaching/influence and is not necessarily a physical thing, see 5:46, 18:6, 20:96, 30:50."

And with regards to what "clear evidence" I have. Other than what I already posted, none.

You seem to neglect the other things I mentioned however. So, allow me to ask you:

1) Can "athar" mean a non-physical/literal mark in Quran? Yes/No.
2) Do all people who perform the traditional prayer multiple times per day have a physical mark on their forehead? Yes/No.
3) If you answer "no" to Q2 above, can you estimate a % who do, in your opinion. I personally think <5% but let me know what you think.
4) 48:29 says "fee their wajh" - what is the most common translation of "fee" in Quran? Is it "in" or "on"?
5) Does "wajh" always mean the physical "face" in Quran?
6) Does the word "sima" always mean physical mark / identifying feature?
7) 48:25 clearly states fellow believers were unknown/unrecognisable - how do you reconcile this with believers having a mark upon their forehead, if that is your view?


Thanks.