Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?

Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #30 on: November 01, 2012, 03:57:37 AM »
Peace to all,

In Sufi terminology, there is a term, insan al-kamil which Ibn Arabi uses it to describe the Prophet Muhammad meaning the perfect human.  It is based on hadith.  I believe the term fits Abraham better.  He represents the ideal human servant that I will never attain yet must strive to, nevertheless.  He is the one chosen as God’s friend for a reason.  He was a man of staunch faith in God thus he knew that nothing could cause him harm against the will of God.  He gave us the first faith lesson with the fire incident that if we resign ourselves entirely to God, there is no need to fear or grieve,  The same lesson is repeated in the sacrifice incident. 

As 7:170 states, “We shall not deny the righteous their reward.” or 9:120, “God will not deny the righteous their reward”

So what was his reward?  He was promised to be made an imam over mankind 2:124 The Jews, the Christians and even the idolatrous Arabs claimed him as their ancestor even though they did not practice his religion.  That is his legacy. Peace to you Abraham!
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #31 on: November 01, 2012, 05:54:24 AM »
Peace to you Abraham!

Indeed :) Peace to you Prophet Abraham (37:108-109).

037:181           
"And Peace be upon the messengers!"
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #32 on: November 01, 2012, 12:58:57 PM »
and even the idolatrous Arabs claimed him as their ancestor even though they did not practice his religion.


Dear Hope / All

Peace to you.

Despite popular belief and given all my work with historical sources, I am not convinced given the weight of Quranic evidence in particular, that the statement above was ever true nor was this ever a claim made by the Prophet.

In my humble view, such a belief has accumulated within the realms of Islamic secondary sources which has subsequently resulted in popular belief. Suffice to say, whatever the motives and propogation circumstances of such a belief, there is in my view no unequivocal evidence to support such a claim. In contrast, the Quranic evidence seems to negate such a view.

Please see my analysis on this subject from a Quranic perspective below.

ARE THE ARABS AND PROPHET MUHAMMAD (pbuh) REALLY DESCENDANTS OF PROPHET ABRAHAM? (pbuh)
http://quransmessage.com/articles/are%20the%20arabs%20descendants%20of%20abraham%20FM3.htm

Regards,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

  • Administrator
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1843
    • View Profile
    • The Quran and its Message
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #33 on: November 01, 2012, 06:42:50 PM »
I have not checked most classical arabic lexicons if the word is used to mean "sacrifice" in a non-slaughter way, or a similar meaning, but I have checked Lane and DofQ and not found such in them. If you have, please let me know.

Dear brother Wakas,

Peace to you

I personally don't know of 'dhiba' being used in such a metaphorical manner, hence why I personally incline to read it literally the way that I have respectfully asserted and take the position I have shared.

However, thanks for your intellectual honesty. Much appreciated.

Your brother in faith,
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #34 on: November 01, 2012, 06:49:00 PM »
Salam hope

In Sufi terminology, there is a term, insan al-kamil which Ibn Arabi uses it to describe the Prophet Muhammad meaning the perfect human.  It is based on hadith.  I believe the term fits Abraham better.  He represents the ideal human servant that I will never attain yet must strive to, nevertheless.  He is the one chosen as God’s friend for a reason.  He was a man of staunch faith in God thus he knew that nothing could cause him harm against the will of God.  He gave us the first faith lesson with the fire incident that if we resign ourselves entirely to God, there is no need to fear or grieve,  The same lesson is repeated in the sacrifice incident.

just one question: what is a perfect human??? what are the criteria for to become a perfect human?? in my humble view, there are no perfect human.  :)

but this a little bit off topic. i'm sorry. Salams

Offline Saba

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 272
  • Keen to learn and understand the True Islam
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #35 on: November 01, 2012, 07:02:08 PM »

just one question: what is a perfect human??? what are the criteria for to become a perfect human?? in my humble view, there are no perfect human.  :)

but this a little bit off topic. i'm sorry. Salams

I totally agree with you chadiga. There is no such thing as a perfect human. Also I have my concerns with Sufi terminology and concepts at times.

For example:

"In Sufism, a Qutb or Kutb is the perfect human being, al-insān al-kāmil, who leads the saintly hierarchy. The Qutb is the Sufi spiritual leader that has a Divine connection with God and passes knowledge on which makes him central to (or the axis of) Sufism"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Qutb

"Marifa (Arabic: المعرفة‎), which literally means knowledge, is the term used by Sufi Muslims to describe mystical intuitive knowledge of spiritual truth reached through ecstatic experiences, rather than revealed or rationally acquired"

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marifa

There are other concepts too like karamat. However, I agree with you, this is a little off topic. Saba


Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #36 on: November 01, 2012, 08:02:15 PM »
Peace ladies,

Prophet Muhammad is not only al-Insan al-Kamil "Whole Man" but also the  al-Insan al-Qadim (Ancient Man).  I do not remember much now, I used to study Ibn Arabi but stopped when I realized his theory was based on a hadith that the world would not have been created without Muhammad.  Anyway, the reason I used the terminology was to point out that  the Whole or Universal Man means to come out from oneself and to project one's will into the absolutely "Other"; the Ancient or Primordial Man means to return to our substance. It is a combination for man's spatial and temporal symbolism.

I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.

"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #37 on: November 02, 2012, 11:58:17 AM »
peace Hope
Peace ladies,

Prophet Muhammad is not only al-Insan al-Kamil "Whole Man" but also the  al-Insan al-Qadim (Ancient Man).  I do not remember much now, I used to study Ibn Arabi but stopped when I realized his theory was based on a hadith that the world would not have been created without Muhammad.
this seems to be a theorie between Hadith and ancient creation myths...
  Anyway, the reason I used the terminology was to point out that  the Whole or Universal Man means to come out from oneself and to project one's will into the absolutely "Other"; the Ancient or Primordial Man means to return to our substance. It is a combination for man's spatial and temporal symbolism.
it is this view of God, what i'm completly not agree with. Sufismus states - as Buddhismus too- that we and God(or the 'nothing' or 'universal power' ) can be one-what lead to the conclusion from satanist: that in fact we ARE God. What else is the claim from Sufis leader /saints/holy priests to become ONE WITH GOD??? for me blasphemy :(


I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.
how you see this terms manifesting in prophet abraham? i don't understand, sorry.

Salam

Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #38 on: November 02, 2012, 04:42:26 PM »
Salaam Chadiga,

Quote
I see these terms manifesting in the Prophet Abraham.
how you see this terms manifesting in prophet abraham? i don't understand, sorry.

Sorry for confusing you.   [Insan al- kamil] operates on two planes: horizontal by extending oneself into the universal life which is that of all beings and vertical by coming out from ego grip and projecting the will into God's. In fact, I was stuck couldn't move because I wanted to move up and sideways at the same time.  Abraham was able to transcend the linear move and expand up first.

Quote
it is this view of God, what i'm completly not agree with. Sufismus states - as Buddhismus too- that we and God(or the 'nothing' or 'universal power' ) can be one-what lead to the conclusion from satanist: that in fact we ARE God. What else is the claim from Sufis leader /saints/holy priests to become ONE WITH GOD??? for me blasphemy

For the Sufi, to follow the prophet means to extend the soul to the life of all beings, to 'ibadah and to dhakara with all and in all as mentioned in 17:44  and also means reduce the soul to the divine remembering of the one soul 2:25

The Sufi wants neither "to be God" as in the extinction/fana concept ; nor "to be other than God" as in the permanence/baqa concept.  There is no fana in God without universal charity and there is no baqa in God without submission to the Origin.  Prophet represents both universality and primordiality just like islam is everywhere and which has always been.

Hope hopes that this is a bit clearer.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Truth Seeker

  • Administrator
  • Sr. Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 413
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #39 on: November 02, 2012, 06:14:42 PM »
Salaam,

I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

Thanks

Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #40 on: November 02, 2012, 07:42:12 PM »
Salaam Truth Seeker,

Quote
I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

People have different stations [ lawwamah, mulhimah, mutma'innah, radiyah, mardiyah] and consciousness thus every experience is different. Are the seeing and the blind the same?  Outside of the Paradise, most cannot realize the Divine Presence.  The quest, seeking must be spiritual.  The vision of God is for the eye of the heart.  As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light. like personal trainer in a gym. some are good some are not just like some seekers are more receptive than others.
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline chadiga

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 137
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #41 on: November 03, 2012, 04:45:07 PM »
Salam Hope
Salaam,

I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

Thanks
this i have read too. and just yesterday one site which i follow make in a new article this claim "how to be ONE WITH GOD".
But thank you for trying to enlighten me  ;)
Salaam Truth Seeker,

Quote
I have read that certain Sufi groups do have concepts where they chant their way to a higher plane so that they are 'one with God and He is one with them' in a literal sense.

Others have the idea that their spiritual leaders have 'special knowlege' that can only be passed on to others after they have served under their teacher for many many years. This is very worrying for me.

People have different stations [ lawwamah, mulhimah, mutma'innah, radiyah, mardiyah] and consciousness thus every experience is different. Are the seeing and the blind the same?  Outside of the Paradise, most cannot realize the Divine Presence.  The quest, seeking must be spiritual.  The vision of God is for the eye of the heart. As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light. like personal trainer in a gym. some are good some are not just like some seekers are more receptive than others.

but the problem is, that spiritual leaders aren't personal trainer in  gym. Spirtuality should be for All people, not only for few individual.
hmm :-\
Thank you and salam

Offline HOPE

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 395
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #42 on: November 03, 2012, 05:45:04 PM »
Peace sister Chadiga,

Quote
but the problem is, that spiritual leaders aren't personal trainer in  gym. Spirtuality should be for All people, not only for few individual.
hmm

Of course, that is why I said  "As far as the spiritual leaders, they cannot make you see, most they can do is make you get involved in spiritual exercises where you try to 'kill the ego' to prepare the soul for maximum absorption of divine light."  You do the work, you connect the dots and see . The trainer can only  show you the certain exercises that will give you the most benefit.  I gave such a mundane example to neutralize the mystical powers people associate with them.  It is not their fault.  Followers elevate them.  As with everything, we either use or abuse things.   
"Hope is like a bird that senses the dawn and carefully starts to sing while it is still dark"

Offline Wakas

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 497
    • View Profile
    • What does The Quran really say?
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #43 on: August 05, 2019, 05:05:45 AM »
peace all,

I have written an article on this topic to put my thoughts/notes in one place: Click Here

Title: Does The Quran say God told Abraham to sacrifice his son?

Offline s1c4r1us

  • Newbie
  • *
  • Posts: 38
    • View Profile
Re: Prophet Abraham asked to sacrifice his son?
« Reply #44 on: August 06, 2019, 05:39:51 AM »
Peace Joseph,

I do not believe the source of the vision was God but of course He knowingly allowed it to be interpreted that way to create a paradigm shift.  Ritual human sacrifice has been in the human psyche for so long. Aztecs, Incas, Phoenicians, Greeks, Romans. Remember Agamemnon wants to sacrifice his daughter Iphegenia to Artemis who stops the wind?


'Shall I give my firstborn for my sin, the fruit of my body for the sin of my soul?' (Micah 6:7 ),
Isaiah 30:27–33 indicates an acceptance of child sacrifice in the early Jerusalem practices, to which the law in Leviticus 20:2–5 forbidding child sacrifice is a response.

Quran 6:137  And in like manner, their associate gods have made killing their children seem fair to many pagans, so that they may ruin them and cause confusion in their religion. Had God pleased, they would not have done so; so leave them to their false inventions.

Isn't Micah 6:7 talking about giving your firstborn as a sacrifice to the Temple, to dedicate himself to Scripture etc.