Author [EN] [PL] [ES] [PT] [IT] [DE] [FR] [NL] [TR] [SR] [AR] [RU] Topic: Joseph Islam's Article "THE SEVEN AHRUF, RECITATIONS (QIRAAT), HAFS AND WARSH"

Offline Bassam Zawadi

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Okay, it seems like Joseph has been getting back up. I'm afraid I can't take all of you on at the same time :)

I will limit my responses only to what I perceive to be "new" and "related to the topic" points.

I made it clear from the beginning that it was not my intention to prove that the Qur'an teaches seven ahruf. My intention was to only address Joseph's point that the Qur'an clearly teaches that it has only been revealed in one mode. That was my only contention.

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You didn't answer my questions. If the other transmissions are not lost and you believe that there are 7 variants, where are they?

Maybe you could google them. Here they are in Arabic http://altafsir.com/Recitations.asp?LanguageID=1&img=A

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Also do you then believe that the prophet, when receiving wahi, learnt 7 different versions of the same Ayah ?

Yeah I do. If you want more elaboration then kindly start another thread so that we don't digress.

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This is a forceful view and suggestion from bro Joseph as Allah could have said the Quran was revealed in Arabic and then full stop!!! Why did Allah say "surrounding towns" in 42.7? Wasn't the Quran meant for everyone that spoke Arabic? Why the restriction??

So  I do not think any further proof needs to be given as even where I am from the local areas and surrounding areas have a certain dialect but as you go out more from our city, the accent and dialect changes. I think this is a good standard position that bro Joseph takes from a Qurans view. Thank you.

Hi Duster.

It could be because that was the first stage of the Prophet's mission, before going on to warn the rest of the world (34:28).

Some have argued that "Hawlaha" simply means around. There is no comment about the extent. It could be referring to surrounding towns or the entirety of mankind, but Mecca was honored as the center.

The point is... you can't appeal to 42:7 to make a clear case that the Qur'an was revealed in one dialect. The Qur'an only talks about being revealed in Arabic. Full stop.

So a positive case can't be made from the Qur'an that it was only revealed in one mode.


If you have any other "new" points, I would be happy to address them.

And if you seriously think that I wasn't able to address Joseph's arguments then you may private message me. I don't want to reinvent the wheel on the thread. Mere re-posting of arguments that were already addressed by me won't attract a response from me.


Thanks,

Bassam

Offline Saba

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Okay, it seems like Joseph has been getting back up. I'm afraid I can't take all of you on at the same time :)

Yes, because he makes the better point! You are just being argumentative as you have no proof for your position of 7 modes and recitations from the Quran - only from hadith!!!!


So a positive case can't be made from the Qur'an that it was only revealed in one mode.

Wrong!!!! The best case that can be made is from the Quran AND NOT FROM HADITH. In all that has been said in your long drawn out exchange with br. Joseph, you simply could not understand that point. I don't mean to sound rude, but your position is really really poor br. Bassam. It simply isn't convincing at all!!! nada!

The Quran does not give any support that it was revealed in 7 modes. Why? Why would it be? Why reveal one guidance 7 times over??? All this talk about 7 recitation etc is all from hadith. So what is the most natural understanding???? That a scripture of Allah was revealed in 7, 10, 50 or whatever modes and recitations or just 1 mode and recitation????

The most natural position is that it was revealed as one narration! Why don't you just get that point???? Well.. at least that is the best proof for me!    Saba  8)

Offline AbbsRay

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Billmilah Arahman Araheem... :o   


 I just read this and my head is spinning worse than one of my friends is trying to explain the Trinity to me....

Offline Saba

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Salaam Abbsrayray.... I think the whole discussion comes down to the following.....

Joseph Islam  - Says  - No such thing as the Qur'an being revealed in 7 modes, recitations, different versions etc etc
Bassam Zawadi  - Yes there are!! That is because the Hadith says so!

Joseph Islam  - Prove from the Qur'an that the Hadith are 'authorized' by Allah as religious sources of interpretation from where you get all these 7 modes etc etc.
Bassam Zawadi  - No comment!!!

One is arguing from the Quran (br. Joseph) and the other from Hadith (br. Bassam)

 ;D ;D 8) Saba
 

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam Saba,

Shakrun helwa....
I get confused how people arguing about the most clear proof which is in the Quran. It's called no imann.



Offline Sardar Miyan

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Salam All When we are talking about Quran there is no question telling about Hadith which we do not believe in. There is no discussion with Hadith believers. Therefore there is no usefull purpose is served by dicussinfg a Hadithi person.
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light

Offline AbbsRay

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Salaam Sarder,

I agree with you 100%. I would NEVER waste my time discussing any issue/verses if the other person is referencing the Hadith whatsoever. I usually take it a step further and never find creditability in what the person says about verses because it shows they have no knowledge in the Quran if they don't see that hadith is a vile innovation from satin... lol


Offline Sardar Miyan

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Dear Bassam, You may have private messaging with Bro Duster as mentioned by you to Bro Duster but do not come  up for discussion basing on any HADITH as this Forum is Quran Oriented. Thanks
May entire creation be filled with Peace & Joy & Love & Light