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Offline Hamzeh

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #45 on: June 28, 2013, 10:58:43 AM »
Salamu alikum

I just happened to come across this discussion and was giving it a little bit of thought so i decided to give my comment on it. But before I start I would like to say something to people who are really honest and willing to know the truth and not just thinking there way is always best and right. So to begin I would like to say:

To find the truth, complete absolute truth in the life and universe is very hard and maybe impossible for humans. The absolute truth is only for Allah(swt) to know. But we should all try and pray that Allah(swt) grants us wisdom and knowledge and the right path.

So for the truth it requires hardship, struggle, searching, manipulations, sometimes sadness, sometimes deception, sometimes being convinced and assured. Sometimes leaving past beliefs that were once wrong. Pondering and desire, Happiness and success. however even after all that the absolute truth belong to Allah and only Allah(swt). 

As humans we have to give and take and share and respect one another. And try to come to solid facts and think with reason and intellect.

We should not take any mans books and saying as truth with out criticism or questioning and study. Even the holy Quran tells us to study the book of Allah, for thats how one can be convinced its the book of Allah(swt). we should look for contradictions and discrepancies, which we can never find in the Quran.

I was pondering about the ayah that brother Arif stated from the Quran which he is saying that it states the infallibility of the imam Ali or any Ulil amr.

[4:59] O you who believe! Obey Allah and obey the Messenger (Rasul) and those in authority (Ulil-Amr) from among you;  then if you quarrel about anything, refer it to Allah and the  Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and  very good in the end.


If i was to study this ayah and extract the points being made, I come to an understanding of the following:

1. To those who believe-----> muslims, mu'mins, believers
2. Obey Allah----> the answer is clear That obey Allah(swt)
3. Obey the messenger (Rasul) NOT prophet Muhammad(pbuh)------> pay attention its stating to OBEY THE RASUL NOT PROPHET(NABI)--->If you search in the quran the nabi had made mistakes and was not infallible. But the messenger of Allah is what brings the ayat and the quran and IS INFALLIBLE(mahsuum) of the message being revealed which is the Quran.

4.And those in authority from among you(Ulil-Amr).--------->lets suppose this is Imam Ali, and it can be argued that it was Abu Bakr or Omar or Uthman before him. But lets talk about the Imam Ali as being the one in authority

5.then the ayah states "if you quarrel about anything"-------> what is it that we may quarrel about and with who? Is it possible we can dispute or quarrel with Allah(swt) THE ANSWER IS NO------>is it possible to dispute with the messenger Rasul(which is Infallible about preaching the Quran)---------> THE ANSWER IS NO

SO WHO IS ALLAH ASSUMING WE MIGHT QUARREL WITH OR DISPUTE WITH--------> THE ANSWER IS THE "ONE IN AUTHORITY AMONG YOU" WHICH IN OUR TIME CAN BE ANY IMAN OR LEADER. Or in the past Iman Ali, Or Abu Bakr, etc.

So there is a few points we can make of here.
      A. That Ulil-Amr (those in authority among you) are NOT INFALLIBLE, BECAUSE ITS ASSUMED THERE CAN BE DISPUTES WITH THE LEADERS
      B. That even the prophet Muhammad(pbuh) had some mistakes and maybe he was to refer it also back to the Quran which he himself as a messenger revealed it.
      C. No one after Prophet Muhammad(pbuh) can claim to be a prophet or a messenger of Allah because he was the seal of the prophets and to my best understanding a messenger of Allah(swt) is automatically a prophet.
      D. No human or Ulil Amr can control and say whatever he wants.
     

6. refer it to Allah and the  Messenger, if you believe in Allah and the last day; this is better and  very good in the end.----> AND YOU SHOULD REFER THE DISPUTES BACK TO THE QURAN IF YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY; THIS IS BETTER AND VERY GOOD IN THE END

And once again remember this is all to those "WHO BELIEVE"
ITS MENTIONED TWICE

Once in the beginning ---> "OH YOU WHO BELIEVE"

And the ending----> "IF YOU BELIEVE IN ALLAH AND THE LAST DAY"



ALLAH KNOWS BEST


SALAM