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Shi'a Doctrine
« on: May 26, 2013, 06:32:29 AM »
Comment by Arif Ali Vakil on Facebook

Salam Alaykum Wa rahmatullah brother Joseph Islam.

Voraciously been browsing your website quransmessage.com.I complment you on your efforts in ascertaining the truth. In The light and fot the sake of the Holy Quranic verse 33:33,5:55 and 42:23 '....say I do not ask you for any reward for it (for the toils of messengership) but, love of my near relatives", I request you to please go through http://www.al-islam.org/brief-history-of-fourteen-infallibles/5.htm Please study\ compare\add the timeline of the 14 infallibles to the timeline in your website and\or let me have your valued opinion on the same.I believe that there is an unbroken chain of traditions from the Holy Prophet (S) through his infallible progeny reaching mankind even today.It cannot be remotely imagined that God has created us and left us to ourselves in seeking the truth without a thorough guidance.This would defeat His own purpose of creating us.We certainly cannot rule out the possibility of authentic traditions reaching us even if they were compiled at a later stage. "And the Pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss". Towards fulfilling the goal of our creation !!! .

Regards, Arif Ali Vakil

http://www.al-islam.org/brief-history-of-fourteen-infallibles/5.htm
www.al-islam.org

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #1 on: May 26, 2013, 06:33:38 AM »
Dear brother Arif Ali Vakil

As-salam alaykum

I understand from what you have said and shared that you align your views with the Shi'i perspective. (Please correct me if I am wrong).

May I kindly and respectfully suggest that we therefore put aside any emotional and 'philosophical arguments' and address this matter from a Quran's perspective.

After all, the Quran is God's final word, it describes itself as:

  • A Clear Guidance (Huda)
  • Clear Proof (Burhan)
  • Explained in Detail (Fussilat)
  • Clear Explanation of All Things (Tibiana Lekulli Shayin)
  • The Ultimate Scale - Balance (Mizaan)
  • Discernment Between Truth and Falsehood (Furqan)
  • Evidence Absolutely Clear (Bayyina)

Therefore, I would respectfully ask you two simple questions in light of the articles I share below:

The doctrine of Imamate from a Shi'a perspective is a fundamental core belief of the Shi'a (usul-e-din). It asserts that apart from the Prophets and Messengers of God, there exist 12 divinely appointed men called 'Imams' who originate from the direct lineage of the Prophet's daughter Fatima and cousin / son-in-law Ali ibn Abi Talib (Ali).

QUESTION ONE: Where is the fundamental doctrine of 'Imamate' found in the Quran? Please can you provide clear, unequivocal verses from the Quran without resorting to philosophical arguments. Please also remember that an 'usul' of a religion must be supported by explicit statements from the Quran.

QUESTION TWO: How does the 'Imam' who is in occultation lead the Shia today?

It is my view that Shi’a doctrine finds no support in the Quran. In fact, verses of the Quran completely negate such a doctrine. Shi'a beliefs seem to be the result of a theology which has been formulated after the alleged occultation of the last imam and an attempt to understand the absence of a physical spiritual guide from the progeny of Imam Ali.

Shi’a theology is built on traditions which are of just as questionable authenticity (if not more) as are Sunni sources.

Neither sources find any authority from the Quran.

Finally, you have pasted the above comments on a total of three separate threads on my Facebook page and private messaged me the same comments. May I respectfully suggest that you only part with your comments once which should suffice for both me and the readers.

I look forward to your response to my two basic questions.


REFERENCES

[1] IMAMATE - A SHI'A DOCTRINE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/imammat%20FM3.htm
[2] SHI'A DOCTRINE AND LITERARY SOURCES - A BRIEF SURVEY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shia%20FM3.htm
[3] THE EARLIEST HISTORICAL SOURCES OF THE INCIDENT OF KARBALA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/karbala%20historicity%20FM3.htm
[4] APPEAL TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BASED ON LINEAGE, RELATIONSHIP, COMPANIONSHIP AND PROXIMITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/righteousness%20based%20on%20lineage%20FM3.htm
[5] AbdolKarim Soroush - The Evolution of Shi'ism and its Imperatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U&feature=player_embedded
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #2 on: May 26, 2013, 06:34:49 AM »
Response by: Arif Ali Vakil

Wa aale qum Salam Brother Joseph Islam.

Please reflect on the subject matter in the below mentioned links as an attempt by me to answer your first question regarding Imamate. A response to your second question follows after the first one is dealt with conclusively. I absolutely disagree with your view when you say that  Quote "It is my view that Shi’a doctrine finds no support in the Quran. In fact, verses of the Quran completely negate such a doctrine. Shi'a beliefs seem to be the result of a theology which has been formulated after the alleged occultation of the last imam and an attempt to understand the absence of a physical spiritual guide from the progeny of Imam Ali.Shi’a theology is built on traditions which are of just as questionable authenticity (if not more) as are Sunni sources" UnQuote, as in my humble view it is based on a premise which is not in keeping with a rational spirit of inquiry, as will become subsequently apparent.

1)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/30.htm
2)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/31.htm
3)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/32.htm
4)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/33.htm
5)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/34.htm
6)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/35.htm
7)  http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/36.htm
8   http://www.najaf.org/english/book/19/37.htm

I look forward to this interaction culminating in ascertaining the TRUTH regarding the Divine injunction of Imamate. " And the pleasure of Allah (swt) is the greatest bliss".
Regards

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #3 on: May 26, 2013, 06:35:34 AM »
Dear Arif Ali Vakil.

With respect, you have not provided me one explicit verse of the Quran which supports the doctrine of the Shi'a.

I am looking for a verse which clearly informs believers that there are 12 divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet Prophet.

Please can you not provide inferences or isolated verses. Please can I remind you with respect that this is a widely read Facebook page and your responses will be read by many readers.

This is an important matter you have raised, therefore I await your CLEAR evidence of the verses. Quranic references will suffice.

May peace be with you.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #4 on: May 26, 2013, 06:37:56 AM »
Response by: Arif Ali Vakil


Brother as to your second question regarding the Benefits an how the Holy Imam Mahdi (atfs) leads the Shias during the period of occultation pls reflect on the contects in the following explanation. The Benefits of Occultation of Imam Mahdi A.S

part 1

Engineer Madani: If the Imam is the leader of the people he should be present among them. What is the benefit of having an Imam who lives an invisible life? What is the use of having an Imam who lives in the state of occultation for centuries without fulfilling any of the functions that he normally undertakes: such as propagating religion, solving the problems of society, responding to the attacks of his opponents, commanding the good and forbidding the evil, helping the poor and redressing the wrongs committed against the downtrodden, upholding the ordinances of God by instituting proper penalties and explaining the lawful and the unlawful to the people, and so on.
Mr. Hoshyar: The people are surely deprived of the benefits that you have enumerated during the occultation. However, the benefits of the Imam's presence are not limited to these. In fact, there are other benefits that are available during the occultation. The following two are among those many other benefits that you have not enumerated:

First, in accord with all that we have said previously and the proofs that were derived from the writings of Muslim scholars, including the hadith-reports that spoke about the necessity of the Imamate, the existence of the Imam as a perfect and unique embodiment of humanity serves as a link between the material and the spiritual world. If the Imam is absent the human species will be extinct. If there is no Imam then God cannot be known or worshipped perfectly. Without the Imam the link between the material and the spiritual become severed. The heart of the Imam is like the source of electricity that distributes light to numerous lamps. The illumination and energization of the hidden universe first mirrors on the heart of the Imam and then from there it reflects on the hearts of humankind. The Imam is the heart of the created universe and the leader and guide of humankind. It is evident that his presence and absence have an impact upon these actualities. After all these, can one ask what benefit accrues from the invisible existence of the Imam? I think that you are raising this objection on behalf of someone else who does not have a real understanding of the meaning of wilayat and the Imamate and who does not see the Imam as more than a legal expert and an administrator of justice, whereas the responsibilities of the wilayat and the Imamate are much more than these external functions.

In a long tradition reported from Imam Sadiq it is related that Imam Sajjad said:

We are the leaders of the Muslims, God's proofs for His creatures, masters of the believers, guides for the godfearing, and those invested with discretionary authority over the affairs of Muslims. We are the security for the dwellers of the earth, just as the stars are the security of the dwellers of the heavens. It is because of us that the heavens descend on the earth whenever God permits. It is because of us that the rain descends and blessings of earth come out of it. If we had not been on earth its dwellers would have been consumed in it.

He then went on to say:

From the day God created Adam until today He has not left the earth without a competent authority (=proof=hujjat). But this authority is sometimes manifest and well known; at other times he is in occultation and in concealment. The earth will not be void of such an authority until the Day of Judgement. If there is no Imam, God will not be worshipped.

Sulayman, the narrator, asked Imam Sadiq: "How can people benefit from the existence of an Imam who is in occultation?" The Imam said: "In the same way as they benefit from the sun behind the clouds."

In this and other traditions of this kind the existence of the twelfth Imam and the benefit derived from him are compared to the benefit derived from the sun hidden behind the clouds. To elaborate on this imagery let us remind ourselves of the way natural science explains the phenomenon. It is established in natural science and in astronomy that the sun is the center of our solar system. The laws of gravity protect the earth from falling into an abyss, and permit the earth to revolve around the sun, generating the distinction between day and night and different seasons according to its position in relation to the sun. The thermal energy produced by the sun is the source of life on earth and its light illuminates the otherwise dark earth. This benefit accrues to the earth regardless of the fact of whether the sun is shining directly or from behind the clouds. In other words, all its functions (illumination, providing energy, growth, etc.) are intact even when it shines from behind the clouds. In fact, whether it is from behind the dark clouds or at night when we think the sun is not present, we are still recipients of the sun's thermal energy and all other benefits that are critical for our survival on earth.

Source: Al-Imam Al-Mahdi- by: Ibrahim Amini p. 154-161 Awaiting yr response to the answers given to ye queries. Regards. And the pleasure of Allah (swt ) is the greatest bliss.

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #5 on: May 26, 2013, 06:38:55 AM »
Dear brother Arif Ali Vakil,

Please can you first provide clear evidence from the Quran for the first question. Please remember that as you appear to claim the authenticity of the Shi'a doctrine, the burden of proof is for you to prove it from the Quran.


[1] BURDEN OF PROOF - PROPHET ABRAHAM'S (pbuh) ARGUMENT
http://quransmessage.com/articles/burdenofproof%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #6 on: May 26, 2013, 12:47:27 PM »
Response by: Arif Ali Vakil

Brother,speaking about evidence and academic vigour,will you please tell me on the premise set by you, how many rakats in your salah (five obligatory prayers) will you offer considering that the same finds no mention in the Holy Quran. Will you on the same grounds stop offering salah which is the meraj of a believer? One has no choice but to accept the glaring fact that if Allah's pleasure has to be obtained and the purpose of creation fulfilled than one has to live by the Divine Book i.e "The Holy Quran".which can be best explained by divinely appointed people i.e The Holy Prophet (pbuh) & his holy progeny (pbut).Please refer Holy Quran 33:33,verse 42:23,verse 3:61 regarding the ahlulbayt (pbut) from THE HOLY QURAN which clearly issue Allah's directives and pleasure. With Regards,Arif Ali

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #7 on: May 26, 2013, 12:51:00 PM »
Dear brother Arif,

May peace be with you.

With respect, you have responded with an extremely poor response. To answer a question with a question is not a befitting response in a serious academic discussion.

I feel my premise to request evidence from the Quran is sound. This is what the Quran expects us to do.

I sense that as you know you have not been and will not be able to provide clear evidence, you have resorted to challenge the premise by asking an irrelevant question about how many rakats I would read in my salat as a red herring.

In fact, your question weakens your argument tremendously.

The need for prayer which the Shi'a accept as a 'Furoo-e-din' (subsidiary) is mentioned numerous times in the Quran. Yet a fundamental belief and doctrine of religion (usul) that the Shi’a accept i.e. that 12 Divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet is not even mentioned once.

With respect, use of isolated verses out of context do not provide clear, unequivocal proof for a fundamental doctrine.

Belief in God, the Last Day, beliefs in the prophets, messengers, Divine scriptures, angels etc are all fundamental beliefs found in the Quran.

Where are the 12 Divinely appointed infallible imams?

With respect, the Shi'a position on this matter could not be more precarious.

Anyway, what if I tell you that the Quran has no intention to define the number of rakats and I read as many rakats as I like. Then what will you say? What if I ask you where is the support in the Quran for the number of rakats that you read? With respect, you will have no proof.

Regardless, with respect and humility, I have dealt with these questions of prayer comprehensively on my website from a Quran's perspective. I share the links below for your academic perusal.

With respect, please can we refocus on the discussion at hand and I once again ask you:

Can you provide me clear evidence from the Quran for the support of 12 Divinely appointed infallible men called 'Imams' who will guide the Ummah after the death of the prophet. It is a simple request.

The verses you have kindly shared do not provide explicit, unequivocal proof for the above. Therefore hitherto you have not provided me the evidence requested and have instead attempted to challenge the premise without warrant.

Please can you continue this discussion on the thread as requested and not on Facebook.

Regards,
Joseph.


REFERENCES

[1] PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm
[2] HOW CAN WE LEARN PRAYER IF WE DON'T HAVE HADITH TO TEACH US?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20without%20hadith%20FM3.htm
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #8 on: May 27, 2013, 09:50:48 AM »
Response by: Arif Ali Vakil

Salam Alaykum brother.

At the expense of repetition let me provide the relevant verses of the Holy Quran to enable you to better comprehend the importance of following Ahlulbayt (pbut) as per the clear directives of Allah (swt). Please refer Holy Quran 33:33,verse 42:23,verse 3:61.

It is an an undisputed fact of history acknowledged by all Muslims alike that the Seal of the Prophets,Muhammad (saws) at the end of his mission on earth addressed his companions in the following words : I am leaving among you two precious things: The Book of Allah and my progeny my Household.As long as adhere to them you will never go astray after me. These (two) will never part with each other until they return to me at the pool of" kauther" in Paradise". The Prophets Household or as the Holy Quran describes them,the AHLULBAYT,are the excellent guides and firmament of Islam. Models par excellence; they personified the light of the Quran and the teachings of the Messenger of Allah in their lives.They imbibed from Muhammad's (S) knowledge,grew up in his House and followed in his footsteps,calling people to the Book of Allah (swt) and urging them to hold fast to the traditions set by the final Messenger to mankind.they areas the traditions say; the companions of the Quran and never part from it, because they embody all the concepts,guidelines and values brought to us by the Quran.

The Holy Quran itself vouches for them in 33:33 '........Allah only desires to keep away uncleanness from you People of the House and make you pure as pure can be". Whoever studies the life of the Ahlulbayt (pbut) will at once recognize the pivotal role they played and the great task they shouldered in shaping the destiny of Islam. they actively endeavored to keep the Shariah (divine laws) pure and strived to preserve the Islamic ideology IN ITS ORIGINAL FORM. They even sacrificed their lives in order to safeguard these high principles and rendered them practical for the Muslim nation. The glorious lives of the Ahlulbayt have always been a source of inspiration to the Muslims in every era and place,interacting with their consciousness,enriching their progress and upholding their Islamic heritage.

Sincere Muslims follow the the teachings of MUHAMMAD (s) & HIS AHLULBAYT (PBUT) IN ALL MATTERS (whether they be realted to Salah,Hajj,Roza,Zakat, Khums) AS PER THE COMMANDMENTS OF NONE OTHER THAN ALLAH (SWT). When sincere Muslims lives by the teachings of The Holy Prophet (S) & his holy progeny they will not remain in darkness and make the mistake of following their own unwarranted opinions regarding important injunctions like the Salahand how to perform it.

As for your remark and I quote you "Anyway, what if I tell you that the Quran has no intention to define the number of rakats and I read as many rakats as I like. Then what will you say? What if I ask you where is the support in the Quran for the number of rakats that you read? With respect, you will have no proof".

My answer is that rational Muslims will perform not only offer their salah but live their whole life based on the teachings of the Holy Prophet (S) & his ahlulbayt ,as per the commandments of Allah(swt). If you by your own confession choose to offer the salah according to your own whim and fancy its your shortcoming not God's, because you are by your free will opting Not to obey Allah (swt), in His repeated clear directives of emulating the Prophet (saws).

Please refer to my earlier posts which conclusively deals with your queries on Imamate. Your repeated requests leads me to believe that you have not read the earlier posts & links provided by me.The same can be provided by me if you so require.

The Shia claim of Imamate is sanctioned by Allah (swt),as they are divinely appointed. When you even cannot offer your salah correctly without referring to the traditions of the Prophet (saws),how are you going to implement divine injunctions and comprehend the other aspects of religion without referring the same to the Holy Prophet (saws).

Regards (Unable to post the same on yr forum,you may include the same in continuation of our discussion)

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #9 on: May 27, 2013, 09:53:50 AM »
Dear brother Arif,

May peace be with you.

You are simply relying on late, fallible historical sources to argue your point. This is called ‘circular reasoning’.

You are then utilising theology ‘derived’ from these late, fallible sources to read your Shi’a doctrine into the Quran by using isolated verses out of context. With respect, this is unacceptable.

None of the verses you have quoted provide any information whatsoever about 12 Divinely appointed imams. A fundamental belief of the Shi'a has absolutely no support from the Quran. You are simply reading ‘doctrine’ into the verses without warrant.

Your whole theology is based on secondary sources which with respect, have no authority from the Quran.

Therefore, once the unauthorised sources are removed from your argumentations, I have concluded that you have no proof for the Shi'a doctrine.

I think we have duly reached the end of our discussion as I submit that you have not, nor can you provide any evidence from the Quran for the support of your position and a fundamental belief of the Shi'a that 12 Divinely appointed Imams will guide mankind.

Please kindly accept this message as my last to you on this matter.

With respect and regards,
Joseph
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #10 on: May 27, 2013, 04:44:49 PM »
Dear brother Ali,

May I also with respect, strongly suggest that you research the nature of the 'historical sources' that you have duly appealed to. These are very late, questionable sources.

In my opinion, to accept ‘history’ blindly or to rely blindly on what the majority of a group has told one to believe is a very irrational approach. One must study the sources for themselves whether Shi’a, Sunni or of any other theological perspective.

Furthermore, there is a difference between Hadith and Sunnah which I felt was not clear in your posts.

It is a very serious matter (and thus an objective of contention) that a fundamental belief (usul) of the Shi'a has no unequivocal support from the Quran.

Therefore, I would humbly like to share some relevant articles with you which may give you a better perspective of the scope of my view.  I shared some of them before but may be you have not had a chance to read them as yet.

Please do kindly read them.

Finally, please find a very good talk by a Shi'a brother, AbdolKarim Soroush.

The Evolution of Shi'ism and its Imperatives
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A_9cM6yEm_U&feature=player_embedded

May peace be with you always

Regards,
Joseph.


REFERENCES

[1] IMAMATE - A SHI'A DOCTRINE
http://quransmessage.com/articles/imammat%20FM3.htm
[2] SHI'A DOCTRINE AND LITERARY SOURCES - A BRIEF SURVEY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/shia%20FM3.htm
[3] THE EARLIEST HISTORICAL SOURCES OF THE INCIDENT OF KARBALA
http://quransmessage.com/articles/karbala%20historicity%20FM3.htm
[4] APPEAL TO RIGHTEOUSNESS BASED ON LINEAGE, RELATIONSHIP, COMPANIONSHIP AND PROXIMITY
http://quransmessage.com/articles/righteousness%20based%20on%20lineage%20FM3.htm
[5] THE DIFFERENCE BETWEEN HADITH AND SUNNA
http://www.quransmessage.com/articles/hadith%20and%20sunna%20FM3.htm

'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline sahil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #11 on: May 27, 2013, 06:52:55 PM »
Dear Sir,

Unfortunately the Arabs mostly invented terms from Quran without Authority to lend meaning without realising the truth and one such as Imamate - who is just 'leader' who can lead them even to Hell as in 28:41 .  The so called 'spiritual leaders' leading us will be cursed by so called followers as in 33:67 and will ask them double punishment for misleading us 33:68 . Allah ordains believers not to erect/elevate anyone amongst us as in 3:64.  Even prophets or angles will advise their followers not to worship them 3:79-80.  Instead follow common terms to serve Allah by righteous deeds which is surety to Heaven.  Also argue on form of salaat, its numbers and other rituals are implied in Quran but not explicitly ordained, hence no point quoting huge volumes articles. Even  Aristotle (384-322 BC) was followed till Renaissance period (1300-1600 A.D.), in philosophy and embedded in Roman Catholic theology and tradition was revised with Galileo scientific truth. Hence either by way of scriptural  evidence , both Sunnis and Shias will be cult instead of Deen.  Sunnis/Shias/Imamates/Hadiths/Sahabas/Tabeen and others multiples are conjectured names to form religion or cult and not authorized by Quran in perspective of Divine worship to establish Deen. 

Offline Arif Ali Vakil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #12 on: May 27, 2013, 07:42:04 PM »
Wa Aale qum Salam Wa Rahmatullah brother Joseph. It seems you are adamant not to believe and accept the lofty position Allah (swt) has granted Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them). You seem to find it easy to ignore the Holy Quranic verses 33:33, and 42:23 which Allah (swt) has ordered all Muslims to follow in their quest to attain salvation. As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him. All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said that the word "near relatives" as used here refers exclusively to his Ahlulbayt. You furthur even ignore to belittle Allahs verse of Malediction (Mubahila) The Holy Quran 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say :Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womeand ourselves and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke His curse upon the liars ". This verse points towards an epoch-making event,narrated by all historians and commentators;an event which revealed to the Muslims how near and dear the progeny of the Prophet are to Allah the Exalted. This event which clearly marked out the clear status of Ahlulbayt,is known in the annals of Islamic historians as MUBAHILA .......and you deny it. What a pity that you cannot notice what is so glaringly visible as clear truth from the Holy Quran. (BY the way Ali (a.s),Hasan(a.s)and Husayn (a.s) who accompanied the Holy Prophet (saws) on this Mubahila against the Christians of Najran are the first three divinely appointed Imams). Accept them and inshallah you will accept all 12 Imams. Your comments suggest you have not even remotely understood the truth about the Shias leave aside making absurd conclusions based on your own fallible deductions. Please do not gamble with your hereafter,and this I say with a lot of affection to you my Muslim brother in faith. May Allah (swt) for the love of Muhammad and His Holy progeny guide you towards the truth and illuminate you with his love and obedience. "Obedience to Allah (swt) is better than compassion to the world".
                                                                                                                                                            With Regards. Arif Ali Vakil



Offline Joseph Islam

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #13 on: May 27, 2013, 09:28:35 PM »
Dear brother Ali,

May peace be with you.

Please see my responses to your comments in red.

It seems you are adamant not to believe and accept the lofty position Allah (swt) has granted Ahlulbayt (peace be upon them).

Dear brother, please do not think of this as a personal vendetta. We are both assessing best evidence. This is an academic discussion. If you can provide clear, unequivocal evidence for support of a fundamental Shi'a doctrine from the Quran, I will be more than happy to accept it. Hitherto, I have not seen any such evidence.

You seem to find it easy to ignore the Holy Quranic verses 33:33, and 42:23 which Allah (swt) has ordered all Muslims to follow in their quest to attain salvation.

With respect, I have studied these verses in depth. There is absolutely no mention of 12 Divinely appointed imams in these verses or the mention of specific individuals that you intimate. You are simply reading your theology into these verses. Please try to understand this. Where are the names? Where does it mention 12 Divinely appointed imams? Where does it mention Ali, Fatima or any contemporary of the Prophet?

For example, to restrict only one daughter (Hazrat Fatima) to a venerated group of the Prophet's household as the Shi'a understand it is also a violation of verse 33:59 which clearly makes use of the term 'wa-banatika' in which the noun is clearly a feminine plural i.e. daughters.

Therefore, from a Quran's perspective, all the daughters of the Prophet were part of the 'Prophet's household'.

"O Prophet! Tell thy wives and daughters..." (33.59 partial)

To assert only one daughter as part of the 'Ahl' of the Prophet is clearly unsupportable by the Quran itself.

As regards Verse 42:23 the Prophet (saws) explicitly told the Muslims,that this verse refers to ahlulbayt that is ALI,FATIMA,HASAN,and HUSAYN and urged them to obey and follow these illustrious personalities after him.

This is the problem dear brother. How do you know Prophet Muhammad actually said this? I'll humbly explain why you think so. You are relying on late, fallible hadith sources to make your claim and the traditions of your forefathers blindly. Some of these sources were not written until many centuries after the death of the Prophet. In a serious academic discussion, you cannot rely on sources which are in dispute.

If you want to rely on 'hadith' as evidence, then this is a separate discussion as then you will need to prove the authority of these sources first like Sunni brother and sisters.

Enough blood has already been shed where Shi'a rely on their sources and Sunni rely on theirs. Often the Quran is forgotten. Please note what the messenger will say on the Day of Judgement.

025:030               
"And the messenger will say: O my Lord! Indeed! my own people / community (Arabic: Qawm) took this Quran as a forsaken thing / ignored it / abandoned it (Arabic: Mahjura)"

Once the disputed ‘hadith sources’ that you are relying on is removed from your discussion, there is no way you can understand the verses in the manner that you do. Please understand this point.

All commentators .traditionalists and biographers are unanimous that the Prophet whilst explaining this verse,said...

Once again you are relying on unwarranted, unauthorised, fallible secondary sources and their claims blindly to argue your position. You are then reading the theology from these sources into isolated Quranic verses. Dear brother, please pay careful attention to this.

You furthur even ignore to belittle Allahs verse of Malediction (Mubahila) The Holy Quran 3:61 " But whoever disputes with you in this matter after what has come to you of knowledge,then say :Come let us call our sons and your sons and our women and your womeand ourselves and your selves,then let us beseech Allah and invoke His curse upon the liars ".

Dear brother, you are once again reading external fallible sources 'into' the Quran, If you read the context of the verses carefully, the matter being discussed is with regards Prophet Jesus. Why are taking verses out of context based on fallible late sources written by men?

.......and you deny it.

No dear brother, I do not deny it. I am studying the verses in context. With respect, you are not. Please study these verses without the lens of fallible hadith sources. God willing, you will see for yourself.

What a pity that you cannot notice what is so glaringly visible as clear truth from the Holy Quran.

I urge you, please study the verses in context. Please do not blindly rely on fallible sources written by men. These sources are not 'truth'. They are keeping a whole 'ummah' (community) blind already. Please let us not continue this blind trend and let us study God's word with earnest like God asks us to do.

Your comments suggest you have not even remotely understood the truth about the Shias leave aside making absurd conclusions based on your own fallible deductions.

I have kindly repeatedly asked you for simple proof from the Quran. You have not provided me any.

Please consider this carefully. You are suggesting that a fundamental doctrine (usul) of the Shi'a that 12 Divinely appointed imams will lead mankind has no explicit support in the Quran. There is not one single verse that confirms this. This is a very serious matter indeed. Please think about this carefully.

Putting trust into sources and beliefs which the Quran does not support is a very grave matter indeed.

Are you really telling me and the respect wider readership that a fundamental 'usul' of the Shi'a doctrine has no explicit, unequivocal support from the Quran? Are you really dear brother?

I hope this helps, God willing.
Joseph.
'During times of universal deceit, telling the truth becomes a revolutionary act' 
George Orwell

Offline sahil

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Re: Shi'a Doctrine
« Reply #14 on: May 28, 2013, 04:43:30 AM »
Dear Brother Arif,

Please give atleast one verse from Quran in proper context as requested by Brother Joseph that will make me to accept your doctrine.  There is no point like Sunni  putting Hadith into Quranic verses to give authority.  It appears that these contention "like flowery discourses "  initiated by enemies of Prophets (6:112) into Arabic/Persian stories , and to carry them like donkey 62:5 with-out sound proof.

Even so called Ahl-Bayt is also referred to Quran in reference to Abraham (11:73)  and Moses (28:12) why are we restricting to one family.  Ahle-Kitab, Ahle Injil,  Ahle-Naar, Ahle-Qura, Ahle Madina, Ahle Yathrab, Ahle-Zikr etc  ( community of people ) are widely used and instead AL'E (family/people) is more used pertaining to Ale-Musa, Ale Ibrahim, Ale Firun, Ale Nuh, Ale Harun, Ale Dawood, Ale Imran...........  Do you find Ale-Muhammad anywhere?  This is where secondary sources on which you base your ideology.

Quran has repeatedly warned not to follow your fathers ( our hadith scholars) as they may be misguided or without any Aql/reason and lead into conjectures.

The so called scholars like Tabari who wrote Histories into 40 volumes and tons of literature copying from similar sources into flowery volumes also inspired by Satan to affirm " Satanic Verses".

Just give one Quranic verse ( confirming Imamate or Ahle-Bayt reference to exclusive Muhammad (pbuh) relatives) to lead your ideology instead putting your ideology into Quranic verse to manipulate for authenticity ?  That will not help us.

You are in world of impeccable proof and evidence and no reasonable person will accept conjectures based on previous fallible sources because it was accepted at the time.

It is good to discuss without emotion that will lead us to ONE incontrovertible TRUTH like all the hypothesis in the present world are discussed/reasearched into Scientific discovery.