SALAT AND TASBIH

[kabiru74]

Salam brodas, pls kindly comment on these two arabic words(salat and tasbih) often misunderstood by so many viewing its usage in the Quran. Are they the same or two different things?

[Sardar Miyan]

أَلَمْ تَرَ أَنَّ اللَّهَ يُسَبِّحُ لَهُ مَن فِي السَّمَاوَاتِ وَالْأَرْضِ وَالطَّيْرُ صَافَّاتٍ كُلٌّ قَدْ عَلِمَ صَلَاتَهُ وَتَسْبِيحَهُ وَاللَّهُ عَلِيمٌ بِمَا يَفْعَلُونَ

Do you not see that Allah is He Whom do glorify all those who are in the heavens and the earth, and the (very) birds with expanded wings? He knows the prayer of each one and its glorification, and Allah is Cognizant of what they do.
-----------------------------
As per this Aya all that in Heavan & Earth will Glorify Allah by their instinct. But as Allah has give free will to humans they have to use it to glorify  Him by remembering & praying five daily prayers which He has mentioned in Quran elsewhere. 

[kabiru74]

Salam.
So Salat and tasbih are the same thing if I understand u correctly?
When u establish salat are u establishing glorification?

Is there any verse that specifically say we should establish glorification?
 
Does glorifying Allah needs ablution and facing a particular direction as it is clearly commanded to be done during establishment of salat?

I think the verses that talks about glorification differs from that that talks about the  establishment of  salat. Stand to be corrected anyway.

During salat u are expected to perform certain rituals while this is absent in the verses that talks abt glorification(tasbih). I believe in salat we perform hamd(praises) and glorification(tasbih) with the associated postures(standing, bowing and prostration and facing a particular direction qibla) while all dis are absent during tasbih which can be done or expected to be done at almost all part of the day and night(which could be more than 5times a day).

I believed strongly that these 2 terms are been mixed up as it is used in the Quran.
Establishing Salat incoparate tasbih, hamd,dua'a  and zikr while carrying out tasbih and others(hamd,dua,zikr) does not take care of salat(the ritual prayers) as commanded by God in the Quran.
Salam and thanx for ur timely response.

[Sardar Miyan]

W'Salam You are right in categorizing Salat which is different from Tasbeeh, Zikr, Hamd,& reciting Allah's Attributes. While all other things are done by standing,sitting & lying down without Wadhu (Abu lotion)
The Salath is time bound with Abulotion to be performed while you are not befogged.

[kabiru74]

Salam and thanx once again for ur timly response.

Having this clear understanding that salat is quite different from tasbih, how come we now derive names of salat from tasbih verses of the Quran in conformity to the secondary source of guidance not authorize by Allah in His Book??

Allah clearly mention three salat(salatil Fajr, salatil wusta and salatil Isha) and there are only three periods of time for salat in the Quran while glorification differs clearly in this sense.  Allah  never told us the reason for naming the salat the Way He did but I have seen brother joseph telling us Allah does not name His salat but thru timing I don't know which part of the Quran he got that information from. And dis timing the present five salat are named after are taking from glorification verses in the Quran and dis can only be found in the secondary source of guidance(hadith).

If we are following Quran strictly I think we should be consistent in the way we approach it. Allah does not forget and His words are perfect and nothing can change His words. If the name of salat is not mentioned by him why do we have to derive it for Him and changing the well known salatil fajr to salatil subh and inventing new ones like zuhr,asr and maghrub.

[Sardar Miyan]

Salam Please read Bro Joseph Islams Article on Five Prayers as per Quran. Thanks

[Joseph Islam]

Wa alaikum assalam

With a view to respectfully clarify my position, please see my perspective on this in the excerpt below

"The Quran refers to establishing prayer (aqimi-salata) by referring to the periods of the day and not by reference to their names. Names of particular prayers in the Quran have only been cited as reference points and to emphasise a particular prayer and not with a view to establish them."

At no place for example would one find the Quran to say 'establish the ‘Fajr’ prayer', or 'establish the ‘Isha’ prayer', but rather, phrases such as "And establish regular prayers at the two ends (Arabic: Salata Tarafayi) of the day and at the approaches of the night (Arabic: wazulafan mina al-layli)..." are used to indicate periods when salat is to be established.

I share with you the following article which I trust elucidates my position on this particular point.

ARE THERE 3 OR 5 PRAYERS IN THE DAY?
http://quransmessage.com/articles/3%20or%205%20prayers%20FM3.htm

I hope that clarifies God willing, at least from my humble perspective.

Regards,
Joseph.

[Sardar Miyan]

Thanks for clarification  Bro JAI

[kabiru74]

Salam broda joseph. First and foremost I will have to commend u for a job well done. Your website is highly impressive and I just came around it just 2weeks ago and I am highly impressed. More greese to ur elbow brother. The areas I am touching are those where I feel I have different opinions to issues. So do please take ur time to clarify issues and don't be bored with my long talks.


Although there are lot differences here and there and I think this is allowed as long as we do not kill ourselves and brand ourselves with names. The Quran is the furqan and the only authorize Book of guidance. God willing we will surely all make it to al jannah where Allah will clarify issues for those that hold on to the Book(Quran alone) and submit to God alone.



On the issue at hand I think we are still saying the same thing. U have beautifully captured in ur article: studying Quran that wen we want to deal with an issue in the Quran, we will have to bring all the related verses that deals with it together. Dis is d way I understand ur point if I am right.

On salat, Allah clearly says establish salat at a specified particular periods- agreed. He talks abt time of rest and he mentioned names of salat to show d period of time of rest. If this salat does not have specific time been defined somewhere else in the book the time of rest wont be clear. So the time of two ends of the day was clearly defined in the verse u quoted. And it clarify the verse that talks abt rest periods.
Atleast we both agree that the name of the two salat out of either 3 or 5 are salatil fajr and salatil isha. Do u agree??? Or u prefer to call it salatil subh in place of fajr as named by the secondary source? Or u don't believe in names of salat at all??

The question is dat, is the act of establishing salat and act of glorification the same thing? If yes then we have more than five periods of salat bring all d glorification verses together and if NO, then the time of salat is different and sometime coincide with that of glorification but are two different thing. Remember the rituals associated with salat which I already quoted in my previous post. It is also a time ordinance thing which is different form d act of glorification.  Secondly, if they are to different activities, salat name and timing can be derived using glorification verses.

Also, if glorification verses are the same as dat of salat. Then we are not authorize to name any salat out of the ones already named by Allah. So, who has d authority to name a salat that Allah did not named. Except we want to agree that salat fajr and isha are not name of the expected aqimmu salat.

And dat somehow we can still be taking guidance from the secondary source of guidance-hadith. Dis I know u disagree with throut all ur articles.

Once again, I have to commend ur effort and dat of other brothers and sisters in the forum.

Salam!

[adam]

Dear Bro Joseph.

I am new to this forum and would like to ask a few questions.

from your article of the 5 daily prayers specifically for zuhur

“Establish regular prayers - at the sun's decline (Arabic: Duluk-e-Shams) till the darkness of the night, and the morning prayer and reading: for the prayer and reading in the morning carry their testimony”


you have noted that this verse is more suitable for maghrib.however i feel that the sun's decline can only begin at the zenith. therefor the "regular" in the verse should mean all 3 prayers from zuhur to maghrib as the regularity of that period ends at sunset. do you think this makes sense in understanding?

another question not related to salat however is that i found a website called servant of the light which claims to be islamic.it mentioned that from studying lexicons that the word Allah translates to " One who is not a deity for worship and adoration".

it explained that the "al" in Allah is a contraction for alathee.

i am no arabic scholar so i find this disturbing yet interesting.

regards
adam

[Joseph Islam]

Dear Kabiru74

Wa alaikum assalam

JazakAllah Khair for your kind, supportive words.

Please see my responses to your comments in blue italics

Atleast we both agree that the name of the two salat out of either 3 or 5 are salatil fajr and salatil isha. Do u agree??? Or u prefer to call it salatil subh in place of fajr as named by the secondary source? Or u don't believe in names of salat at all??

The two salaats that you refer to mentioned by the Quran by name are those that the people at the time of the Prophet's ministry were familiar with.

The question is dat, is the act of establishing salat and act of glorification the same thing?

Not necessarily. Whilst partaking in salaat, there is an act of glorification included within it. That does not infer that they are necessarily both synonymous. I may choose to glorify God between two periods of salaat or throughout the day. That does not mean that I am establishing salaat.

If yes then we have more than five periods of salat bring all d glorification verses together

Please can you expand on this with clear examples dear brother so that I may understand your perspective better.

With regards,
Joseph.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Adam,

As-salam alaykum and welcome to the forum.

Please see my responses to your comments in blue italics

you have noted that this verse is more suitable for maghrib.however i feel that the sun's decline can only begin at the zenith. therefor the "regular" in the verse should mean all 3 prayers from zuhur to maghrib as the regularity of that period ends at sunset. do you think this makes sense in understanding?

It is not implausible and that is why I shared the various opinions on the matter.
 
However, as I respectfully noted, it is important to note the closeness with which the ‘sun’s decline’ (Arabic: Duluk-e-shams) has been mentioned with ‘till the darkness of the night’ (Arabic: ila Ghassaqi-layli) which appears to indicate a closer relationship which is inherent to Maghrib and sunset rather than Noonday with sunset. Hence why I incline to the latter opinion amongst other reasons.

another question not related to salat however is that i found a website called servant of the light which claims to be islamic.it mentioned that from studying lexicons that the word Allah translates to " One who is not a deity for worship and adoration".  it explained that the "al" in Allah is a contraction for alathee. i am no arabic scholar so i find this disturbing yet interesting.

Let me reassure you dear brother that there is nothing disturbing in this. It appears simply to be a case of gymnastics with semantics to prove a certain point. 'Allah' is simply an Arabic name for the Deity that both the mushrikeen and monotheistic worshippers made use of to refer to God. It is still used by Arabs today who are not necessarily 'believers'. I have discussed this in the following article:

‘ALLAH’ IS NOT AN EXCLUSIVE NAME FOR GOD
http://quransmessage.com/articles/allah%20is%20not%20an%20exclusive%20name%20for%20god%20FM3.htm

I trust that this helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.

[adam]

wa alaikum salam brother Joseph.

Thank you for replying and explaining.

As you already know, salat is offered or worship to God only. what do you think about praying for one self during salat; the brief sitting in between sujud ?


i was brought up a sunni (shafiee school) and during the sitting between sujud(s) of any rakaat it is required to recite this :

Rabbighfirli  Warhamni  Wajburni Warfa'ni  Warzuqni Wahdini Wa'afini  Wa'fu'anni

and then theres the tashahud recital that is not quranic.

right now, i've omitted the iftitah after takbir and straight away recite fatihah then alikhlas. i find those surahs easy to understand and rings well with the oneness of Allah.

and i only offer 2 rakaats for every salat unless im praying with someone that follows the conventional way of praying.

is this hypocritical for someone trying to be a muslim?

Thank you for a lot of things you have cleared out on your site brother joseph. its a great tool for knowledge., truth, and liberation.

May allah's peace and mercy shower upon you and your family.

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Adam,

As-salam alaykum

You asked:

'...is this hypocritical for someone trying to be a muslim?'

As you know dear brother, neither a specific form for salaat nor a specific 'utterance' (what to say) is 'prescribed' by the Quran. It has not been 'ritualised'.

Therefore in my humble view, one should not feel committed to a select utterance or in any particular language. I also do not find anything 'unquranic' about praying for oneself or others in their salaat. Ultimately, when one prays for oneself, they are automatically positioning their Lord as the ultimate provider and the Master of the Universe. This can be argued as a form of worship.

With regards 'rakats' / units, once again there is no specific prescription, though many Quran-centred believers pray in the conventional manner for congregational logistical purposes and for assimilation as best practice.

I would personally not see it as 'unquranic' if one offered more or less rakats in their privacy as long as they commune with their Lord during the periods that the Quran prescribes with full devotion.

However, I do find support for congregational prayers as being preferable [1]

Please see the following thread [2] where I have elaborated how I personally pray and why.

I hope this helps, God willing.

Regards,
Joseph.


REFERENCES

[1] THE IMPORTANCE OF CONGREGATIONAL PRAYER
http://quransmessage.com/articles/congregational%20prayer%20FM3.htm
[2] How Do I Pray Ritual Salat from the Quran?
http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=486.0

[kabiru74]

salam brother joseph.

I have long been far away from the net. sorry for the delay in my response.

what i meant by more than five salat is dat if glorification verses are to be used as a basis for identifying the time and naming of salat then we should have more than five salat. this i said in respect to 20:130

pls kindly look at CH20:V130. the atraaf used in the verse is not dual plural but rather three and above plural word. so glorifcation in this verse shows dat glorification is tobe done almost all parts of the day.

This is my humble understanding brother. u might want to clarify it better as i might be wrong in my translation of the this quranic verse.

the bottom line is dat the act of salat and glorification are two different things and should not be mixed up.

This is my humble view