Messages

406

General Discussions / Re: Verse 9:29

« on: February 17, 2014, 10:23:13 PM »

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam.

Whilst I like the idea of a flow chart to present this information, I feel you have left unexplained a rather critical and controversial component, i.e. when it says:

pagans/idolaters who are treaty breakers and transgressors
----->
those that repent, they establish the salat and pay the poor due


Can you clarify that this group, after 4 months, must convert (I assume in order to uphold salat, in your view of salat as prayer) and pay zakat, and if they do not do this they can be fought.

Thanks.

407

General Discussions / Re: A question regarding layl and ghasak al layl.

« on: February 15, 2014, 04:46:38 AM »

What do you make of:

And a sign for them is the layl, We strip/peel/remove from it the nahar, whereupon they are those in darkness. [36:37]


If "layl" has no "nahar", is it possible to strip/peel/withdraw "nahar" from it?

408

General Discussions / Re: How best to respond to this objection?

« on: February 11, 2014, 06:28:42 AM »

w/salaam Ismail,

Do you have an opinion on 3:36?

409

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 11, 2014, 06:25:51 AM »

w/salaam saba,

.......... br Mazhar on the free-minds link challenged your understanding with proof or 'evidence' as you like to call it..... Now I am interested to see what your reply is...do you have a rebuttal to his view? can you prove to me and other readers on this forum that your view is better than his??

It is actually quite tiresome having a discussion with br. Mazhar, not only due to language barrier but also he is often vague/indirect/evasive. As can be seen from this thread where I had to remind him several times about answering my points, and when claimed to have finished answering 8 pages later, I didn't understand much of what he wrote, particularly the latter answers. And it's not only me, this is regularly said about br. Mazhar's posts. I created a summary thread here.

I fail to see his objection in the quote you gave, as it is irrelevant to my request. However, I do find it telling you seem to think it is worthy of a reply. In any case, I have replied on that thread on FM, in an attempt to clarify.

 

410

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 11, 2014, 04:53:03 AM »

w/salaam Abbsrayray,

I am confused on your way of thinking...

I will attempt to clarify, but please note, such posts may be limited in future.

You mention that I refer to Ibn Kathir, which I do, but for a specific and clear reason, allow me to quote myself and pay very close attention to the words in red:

Background information:
Traditional Islamic history openly admits that before the alleged "isra & miraj" (night journey & ascension) story involving prophet Muhammad in 17:1, there were only two salat daily, or perhaps 2 + 1 extra during the night, see sources: famous Traditional scholar Ibn Kathir and academic article dedicated to this topic. For those unfamiliar with the alleged isra & miraj story, please use a search engine. For a possible explanation of 17:1 as per Quran, please see here. Thus, according to tradition, after this event there became 5 daily salat.

The above was written to simply give readers a little background information on the origins of the 5 salat daily according to Traditional Islamic sources.

Nowhere do I ever say this is my view.

My use of words such as "alleged" make it clear I do not consider it true, or at the very least questionable.

The part in blue is a reference I give to my own view, as per Quran.

#####

You then go on to mention that I reference Abdul Mannan Omar and since he makes use of traditional sources this somehow means I am discredited/wrong or also using them.
Firstly, to my knowledge every Classical Arabic dictionary makes use, in part, of Traditional Islamic sources, e.g. Lane's Lexicon (which brother Joseph uses many times for example), when they discuss meanings. Perhaps the first one (kitab al ayn) didn't, I dont know as I haven't researched it, but certainly would have used non-Quranic sources.

Just because I reference it, does not mean my points are based on it. And in case there was any doubt, one simply has to read all 20 points I make in my article, and it will be blatantly obvious that not once do I reference a Traditional Islamic source, e.g. Hadith.

The only time I do mention them is in passing, as a two sentence sidenote, quote:

"As a side note, "wusta" has never been a reference/name for a salat in Traditional Islamic history as far as I'm aware. And for those that argue it refers to a clear/known period of the day, they should note that there is variance in Traditional sources about which salat it may refer to."

I recommend reading very carefully, multiple times if necessary.

411

General Discussions / Re: How best to respond to this objection?

« on: February 10, 2014, 11:34:01 PM »

peace daniel,

Firstly, I can understand a reaction such as yours, but rather than speculation, I prefer to weigh and consider the evidence. For example, do you have an explanation for the Quranic verses I referenced with regard to virgin birth of Isa?

Secondly, I think there are already those who are "Muslim" by name but atheist in belief/practice. Regarding the trend you speak of I am actually familiar with it, as I have discussed somewhat on the issue with Quran-based muslims who remove "miracles" from their understanding, and/or God intervening in our lives etc. A question I like to pose them is to explain how we got The Quran (which they invariably believe to be the Word of God) - try it, the answers can be interesting and quite amusing, but ultimately unsatisfactory in my view.

And lastly, please reflect upon the meaning of "miracle":

miracle: an extraordinary and welcome event that is not explicable by natural or scientific laws and is therefore attributed to a divine agency.

Note how knowledge/understanding is intimately intertwined with "miracle", e.g. if you were to visit an ancient Amazonian tribe in South America today who had little/no contact with the "West" and were to make fire with a laser a mile away (or whatever) they may consider it a miracle. But is it? Reflect.

412

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 10, 2014, 11:19:06 PM »

salaam saba,

...it seems you are looking for validation ...that is why you keep putting out these challenges on different forums...

Unevidenced assertion. I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

imho is much better than you in understanding arabic..

Most likely true, however I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Tell us saba, does Quran say those who know Arabic best will understand it best? If so, please provide the verse.

Even if we both agree that knowledge of Arabic is important, it is only one element used to derive an accurate understanding. I have already discussed in some detail about the other elements.


In any case, I feel I should clarify, when I requested forum members to participate in this thread, I meant in an evidence-based manner, actually based on the updated article, not with unevidenced/fallacious commentary.

413

General Discussions / Re: How best to respond to this objection?

« on: February 10, 2014, 08:14:01 PM »

peace Mubashir, all,

You raise an interesting/important question. I have not studied all the alleged "miracles" in The Quran, however I can tell you what I have studied, perhaps you will find it helpful.

Re: virgin birth of Isa
To my knowledge, it is actually scientifically possible and supported somewhat by Quran, see my comments here:

There is discussion here on whether Jesus was born to a virgin or not. The minority of people here think he was not. Most think he was, including myself.

In terms of the "miraculous" nature, there is some weighting that Mary was hermaphrodite/intersex. This is mainly based on:

So when she delivered she said: "My Lord, I have delivered a female," and God is fully aware of what she delivered, "And the male is not like the female, and I have named her Mary, and I seek refuge for her and her progeny with You from the outcast devil." [3:36]

Also Mary, the daughter of Imran, who maintained her chastity. So We blew into him/it (fee hi) from Our Spirit, and she believed in the words of her Lord and His Scripture; and she was of those who were dutiful. [66:12]

And the one who protected her chastity, so We blew into her (fee ha) from Our Spirit, and We made her and her son a sign for the worlds. [21:91]

hi = him/it
ha = her

It would still have required a very unique event, but Mary being hermaphrodite/intersex would explain it somewhat. This is my current view.

References for background reading:
For example:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Intersex
http://www.nlm.nih.gov/medlineplus/ency/article/001669.htm

Quote:
True Gonadal Intersex. Here the person must have both ovarian and testicular tissue. This may be in the same gonad (an ovotestis), or the person might have one ovary and one testis. The person may have XX chromosomes, XY chromosomes, or both. The external genitals may be ambiguous or may appear to be female or male. This condition used to be called true hermaphroditism. In most people with true gonadal intersex, the underlying cause is unknown, although in some animal studies it has been linked to exposure to common agricultural pesticides.

Complex or Undetermined Intersex Disorders of Sexual Development. Many chromosome configurations other than simple 46, XX or 46, XY can result in disorders of sex development. These include 45, XO (only one X chromosome), and 47, XXY, 47, XXX -- both cases have an extra sex chromosome, either an X or a Y. These disorders do not result in an intersex condition where there is discrepancy between internal and external genitalia. However, there may be problems with sex hormone levels, overall sexual development, and altered numbers of sex chromosomes.

#####


Re: Moses and parting of the sea
Again, that is actually scientifically possible. You can research it online but the main explanations given are: how a tsunami can cause a body of water to retreat and then advance rapidly, or, a phenomenon called "wind setdown".

414

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 10, 2014, 07:55:17 PM »

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

No need to be "disillusioned", as I never said everything in the updated article was new content. However, I did highlight points that were "clear and irrefutable" errors (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). I would have thought if one's time was limited, one would begin with these points first.

I do not expect you to discuss again the points we have already discussed (or for other reasons). I will even help you out by highlighting those points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 13, 14. You don't have to address these ones if you do not wish to. Please note just because I have said we have discussed these points does not mean I found your answers to these points satisfactory.

Perhaps I could have clarified at the beginning that not all the content was new. In any case, as I said, take your time. In the meantime, I recommend forum members to read the article, and they may also wish to begin with points 6, 10, 12, 15 and 16, and determine if they are errors or not, and report back here. I'm sure br. Joseph and myself will appreciate some external legwork being done in this pursuit of truth. I know certainly, I like all the help I can get.

415

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 10, 2014, 06:23:02 AM »

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, I cannot give your reply respect until the following is clarified.

Your reply clearly implies that you have had exhaustive discussions on this subject, however, in your article there are some clear and irrefutable errors that remain (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). Thus there can only be two options:

1) In these exhaustive discussions you allude to, these errors have been pointed out to you, but you have decided to keep these errors in your article.

or

2) The exhaustive discussions you allude to may not have covered some points, thus you were unaware of the errors, and if errors are pointed out to you, you are of those that respond/correct them.


Now, I am confident I know you well enough to know it is not (1). You, like myself, are a truthseeker, and a truthseeker cannot and will never tolerate propagating clear errors in their work. This is perhaps why you said: "...I am almost truly expired when it comes to debating this topic."

A truthseeker never expires in their pursuit of the truth. So please, let myself and forum readers know which is it: (1) or (2)?

Then I can consider giving your reply the respect it deserves, from one akhi to another. Also, feel free to take your time, we are all busy. 

416

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 10, 2014, 05:55:25 AM »

salaam saba,

Sorry br. Wakas but I'm not going do your homework for you. I gave examples to make my point. I've done that. Thanks Saba 

Thanks for demonstrating my point. As I said several posts ago:

Thirdly, the key is it is a stated methodology. No translation exists with a stated robust/detailed and verifiable methodology.

417

Islamic Duties / Re: Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

« on: February 10, 2014, 02:51:29 AM »

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Bold and underline emphasis mine:

If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

I have written a more detailed article listing the many problems in your 5 salat daily article, as well as other articles, here:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It is hoped that this article will allow readers to weigh and consider information more accurately. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.


#####

Unless we Muslims change ourselves first and are prepared to unlearn and relearn for the sake of seeking TRUTH, we shall have little hope for liberation from the dark abyss of ignorance which has become our greatest nemesis.

418

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 10, 2014, 02:31:10 AM »

salaam saba,

I understand subjectivity, and this is blatantly obvious in my previous posts wherein I mention potential disagreement on aspects of methodology.

However, you still miss the point. Not to worry, here is a simple test that will prove/disprove my point. You said:

Many translators claim that their method is reliable.

Dr. Laleh Bakthiar claims that her translation has "internal consistency and reliability"
http://www.sublimequran.org/

Mazhar Noorani who gives comments on quran.corpus site as well has his own site with a methodology. Many of the times you both don't agree on freeminds..... you can't even agree on number of prayers ... he says 5 you say 2 ....

http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/eng%20article.htm

Dr. Shabbir's QXP claims all sorts of things like tasreef al ayat methodology with a shura and a methodology and a QXP which is revised over years and years ....

They all state their methodologies ...to them there methodology is right!!!!

I'm sure some do state their methodologies, to various degrees, but I am confident they will be woefully inadequate i.e. lacking details, few Quran references, and little or no mention of how to verify what they write etc.

The test:
Please provide a link/quote to the stated methodology of any translation that in your view is Quran-based, is the most detailed/robust and verifiable that you can find.

Please note, I do not want any one, I want the strongest you can possibly find. One will do.

We can then examine it to see how many Quran references it has, how detailed it is, if it gives instruction on how to verify it etc.

Then we can determine if this simple concept (of having a stated methodology from the outset that is detailed/robust and verifiable) is lacking or not in existing translations.

Looking forward to your reply.

419

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 09, 2014, 07:17:04 PM »

w/salaam sister saba,

I don't think you get it.

Firstly, the methodology will be extracted from Quran of course, similar to this, but more detailed.

Secondly, the group would only be formed from people who agreed upon the methodology. Even if no-one agreed to the methodology and let's say I did it myself, it doesn't matter, see point below.

Thirdly, the key is it is a stated methodology. No translation exists with a stated robust/detailed and verifiable methodology.

And lastly, the translation would be unique/better for other reasons. Primarily to do with verification, discussion of options etc.


If you know of a Quran translation with a stated methodology, that is Quran-based, robust/detailed and somewhat verifiable, let me know. If you cant cite one, then translationmovement is already ahead of the game by being the first to do so..... if it goes ahead.

420

General Discussions / Re: No Arab Muslim Specialist in Qur'anic Studies has made an English Translation.

« on: February 09, 2014, 03:37:15 AM »

Interesting .. so like footnotes you mean... Would you then do the same with verses 9:128-29 where you would mention...there are groups such as 19 group / submitters that believe these verses are not from the Quran - inspired by satan ... i.e. include more and more footnotes?

Yes, footnotes. I cannot say what verses would and would not have footnotes.

If you just want a translation and discussion on the words what is wrong with what quran corpus is already doing? It allows for discussions on some words ..but tries to stay a word / word translation because it is in the footnotes that all sorts of problems occur.

If you mean corpus.quran.com then that is not a translation. It's primary focus is clearly stated on its homepage, quote:

Welcome to the Quranic Arabic Corpus, an annotated linguistic resource which shows the Arabic grammar, syntax and morphology for each word in the Holy Quran. The corpus provides three levels of analysis: morphological annotation, a syntactic treebank and a semantic ontology.

also wouldn't  a meaning for salaat = go/turn towards in a close/positive manner not confuse ppl more? i mean they will then start to think ..hmm what does it mean here .. does it mean blessing, prayer, eulogy, oration, supplication??? Will this not get more confusing???

If you feel it would be more confusing, that is you. I do not.

It is the pick and choose - cherry picking from dictionaries to suit your own views that causes a lot of the problems with such qur'anist groups. what do u think>?

I agree. As I said, a robust and verifiable methodology would be stated from the outset. You will note that no Quran translation exists that has done this - to my knowledge. This is a critical flaw in my view.

Similarly, no Traditional scholar, to my knowledge, has studied the large corpus of Traditional Ahadith applying a robust, verifiable methodology consistently to this content. You may wish to ask yourself why that is and ponder upon 4:82.

I mean look at the carnage that took place here between you and br. Farouk Peru .. it turned into a slanging match.

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=601.msg2104#msg2104

I dont see the relevance. If your point is elements of the methodology will be disputed, then of course it will. It is impossible to agree upon every single thing with everyone. However, what one can do is state a clear methodology (once decided on), helping readers to weigh and consider a translation.