Comments on Five Prayers & Meaning of Sujud - Wakas

[Wakas]

peace brother Optimist,

Thank you for the reply.

Perhaps it would help if you better understand what I mean by the regular/timed salat, as to me, it is obviously a physical act - although I do not like to use that term, as I do not say things like "physical charity" for example. It just sounds odd. See here.

In 4:102 I primarily take "'tadaAAoo / lay down'" (referring to arms) literally, whilst you seem to take it as referring to having them close by or not, not necessarily holding them. Fair enough.

I struggle to envisage an illness/rain that stops one holding a sword for example (or having it close by as you imply) but one can still physically prostrate etc. If you can, fair enough.

I reject your point (2) for the reasons I mention in the article. I'm not sure if you have understood the point however.


Re: morning and evening
I agree that an "all the time" interpretation is possible. That is why I said "seemingly". My main evidence for a minimum of two daily regular/timed salat are not those verses you referenced however.

[Joseph Islam]

Thanks for the discussion.

You are most welcome dear brother 

As-salam alaykum.

[Sardar Miyan]

 Salam Where is Optimists post to which Wakas is replying?

[Truth Seeker]

Salaam Sardar Miyan,

Please see the first page of this thread. Thanks

http://quransmessage.com/forum/index.php?topic=477.0

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Bold and underline emphasis mine:

If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

I have written a more detailed article listing the many problems in your 5 salat daily article, as well as other articles, here:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It is hoped that this article will allow readers to weigh and consider information more accurately. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.


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Unless we Muslims change ourselves first and are prepared to unlearn and relearn for the sake of seeking TRUTH, we shall have little hope for liberation from the dark abyss of ignorance which has become our greatest nemesis.

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Wakas,

I am just going to give you a FACT from the link you posted that is your own writting and beliefs I assume?

And do not follow what you have no knowledge of; surely the hearing, the sight and the heart, all of these, shall be questioned about that. [17:36]

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Bold and underline emphasis mine:

If we are going to challenge any position, traditional or otherwise, it is my humble view that the Quranic evidence has to be unequivocal, clear and cogent to contest it. I have till date failed to see any such evidence and neither have you provided any.

Thank you for your posts. With respect, I find absolutely no credibility in your contentions which I appreciate is for other readers to consider for their own.

I have written a more detailed article listing the many problems in your 5 salat daily article, as well as other articles, here:

The common problems with 5 salat daily timings as per The Quran
http://mypercept.co.uk/articles/problems-5-salat-Quran.html

It is hoped that this article will allow readers to weigh and consider information more accurately. All feedback is welcome, especially corrections. Thanks.


#####

Unless we Muslims change ourselves first and are prepared to unlearn and relearn for the sake of seeking TRUTH, we shall have little hope for liberation from the dark abyss of ignorance which has become our greatest nemesis.

Wallahi akhi, I have exhausted this topic over and over again. I truly have. I have debated this topic on various social platforms over and over again over many years. As you know I have even exhausted my discussion with you on this topic on this forum in depth. I have written dedicated articles on this subject and debated them. With utmost respect to you and others that want to continue to discuss this topic with me, I am almost truly expired when it comes to debating this topic.

If you feel you should pray 2, then please do. If others feel they should pray 3, please do. If one believes they don't need to pray, then their matter is with their Lord.

I believe the expectation to establish salat 5 times a day is clear from the Quran and I am happy to establish worship to my Lord 5 times a day. I invite my brothers and sisters to at least pray!

With respect, my humble efforts, my work, my commitments, my research, my striving in the broadest sense for the sake of God, expand much further than this topic amongst Quran-only groups.

Therefore, for now, I leave you with my deepest respects and I truly trust that you will appreciate and respect my sentiments and prerogative. I very much hope you will 

As-salam alaykum


RELATED SECTION:

[1] PRAYERS
http://quransmessage.com/articles/prayer%20FM3.htm

[AbbsRay]

Salaam Wakas,

If Allah does not call the prayer by the name we know today, it does not mean it is automatically 2 or three for the ones He spells out by the names we know today as they are. He is listing the times, if you wanna call it El wusta, two end of the night, two in the afternoon...whatever... He is giving you the times and each time or as a combined description it is five mandatory prayers He is commanding us to do. Study the ENTIRE Quran, not look for just what He says about Prayer, He is telling you how to look at the words He is saying elsewhere that has nothing to do with the prayers to help one understand how to thinbk about what He is saying.

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

Thanks for the reply.

Unfortunately, I cannot give your reply respect until the following is clarified.

Your reply clearly implies that you have had exhaustive discussions on this subject, however, in your article there are some clear and irrefutable errors that remain (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). Thus there can only be two options:

1) In these exhaustive discussions you allude to, these errors have been pointed out to you, but you have decided to keep these errors in your article.

or

2) The exhaustive discussions you allude to may not have covered some points, thus you were unaware of the errors, and if errors are pointed out to you, you are of those that respond/correct them.


Now, I am confident I know you well enough to know it is not (1). You, like myself, are a truthseeker, and a truthseeker cannot and will never tolerate propagating clear errors in their work. This is perhaps why you said: "...I am almost truly expired when it comes to debating this topic."

A truthseeker never expires in their pursuit of the truth. So please, let myself and forum readers know which is it: (1) or (2)?

Then I can consider giving your reply the respect it deserves, from one akhi to another. Also, feel free to take your time, we are all busy. 

[Joseph Islam]

My dear brother Wakas,

With respect, please can we leave it to the readers to decide as to who has errors in their views. My views don't have errors simply because you have decided to write a document and say so. That, as I am sure you will appreciate would be an arrogant assertion.

To be perfectly honest, I haven't even read your article yet.

As readers I am sure will appreciate, I must use my time wisely and simply cannot be dragged into a discussion / debate just because someone decides to challenge my view or write a document. A truth-seeker has many responsibilities dear brother and that includes use of their time wisely for the sake of God (as they best understand). Furthermore, they do not engage in endless disputes but rather, attempt to reach common ground.

I truly feel that I have given you so much time on this topic and have always been willing to engage with you. The debate is here in public for everyone to read and scrutinise and I parted with my humble perspectives with what I felt were clear arguments why your approach was fundamentally flawed. (Please see the start of this thread).

Now if time and will ever permits, God willing I may revisit your assertions once again and deal with your contentions again. However, with respect, it is not because you demand it or claim that errors have been pointed out with a view to drag / psychologically coerce me into a debate, but because I feel I can allocate proper time to it and I see value for doing so for the benefit of myself and others, Insha'Allah.

With respect, I just do not feel that you have presented anything new (since you first discussed this matter with me on the salaatforum over 2 years ago, till now). Therefore, I have become quaintly disillusioned and somewhat demotivated with your arguments and approach on this particular topic. (Notwithstanding the areas we agree).

But of course, if and when I do have a look at your arguments again and I see points worthy of response / correction - of course I will. I am sure you know me by now.

You said:

Unfortunately, I cannot give your reply respect until the following is clarified.

I gave you respect, regardless. But dear brother, I am very disappointed and saddened that you did not receive my reply with the general courtesy I extended to you and allow me the prerogative not to engage for the time being, for the reasons that I cited and I feel are important.

Please let us leave it here brother Wakas for now 

Peace and regards,
Joseph

[Joseph Islam]

Dear brother,

After my last post, I decided to have a quick peruse of your article to see if there was anything new, but once again became  disillusioned after your very first point.

You said:

1) B, C, D.
Quote from article: "This article will attempt to show that not only are the 5 prayers strongly alluded to (and sometimes mentioned by name)..."
and
Quote: "The Fajr prayer is actually mentioned by name in the Quran as is the Isha prayer..."

The first point to note is that the author openly admits names of some salat are given (i.e. fajr and isha), yet nowhere in the article is it considered why only these two are named.


With respect, what you have failed to note is that there is a related article below entitled 'Are there 3 or 5 Prayers in the Day?' In it I have clearly stated:

Where the Quran has mentioned the names of 'prayer', it has not named them with a view to establish them. Rather, the named prayers are referred to indirectly as a reference point while dealing with other matters. In one case, it is singled out requiring special attention.
 
In verse 24:58, where the names of the prayer ‘Salaat-il-Fajri’ and ‘Salaat-il-Isha’ do appear, they are referred to by virtue of them being reference points when certain groups of people require permission at times of undress / privacy.

I further mention: "To establish prayer, the Quran never makes use of 'names'. Rather, when it instructs believers to 'establish prayer' it does so by referring to the periods of the day."

In the final thoughts of that article, I mention:

"The Quran refers to establishing prayer (aqimi-salata) by referring to the periods of the day and not by reference to their names. Names of particular prayers in the Quran have only been cited as reference points and to emphasise a particular prayer and not with a view to establish them."

Now my dear brother Wakas, I would not like to ‘hazard a guess’ at this stage how much effort will once again be required to deal with all your other queries if this the kind of points I am going to have to deal with. However, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

With peace,
Joseph

[Wakas]

Dear brother Joseph,
salaam/peace.

No need to be "disillusioned", as I never said everything in the updated article was new content. However, I did highlight points that were "clear and irrefutable" errors (see points 6, 10, 12, 15, 16). I would have thought if one's time was limited, one would begin with these points first.

I do not expect you to discuss again the points we have already discussed (or for other reasons). I will even help you out by highlighting those points: 1, 2, 3, 4, 7, 11, 13, 14. You don't have to address these ones if you do not wish to. Please note just because I have said we have discussed these points does not mean I found your answers to these points satisfactory.

Perhaps I could have clarified at the beginning that not all the content was new. In any case, as I said, take your time. In the meantime, I recommend forum members to read the article, and they may also wish to begin with points 6, 10, 12, 15 and 16, and determine if they are errors or not, and report back here. I'm sure br. Joseph and myself will appreciate some external legwork being done in this pursuit of truth. I know certainly, I like all the help I can get.

[Saba]

Salaam Wakas ...from what I can tell, the only person really uncomfortable with their position may be you...it seems you are looking for validation ...that is why you keep putting out these challenges on different forums... I mean look at this thread ...

http://free-minds.org/forum/index.php?topic=9606088.msg347459#msg347459

I totally agree with what Mazhar said to you ..

"the challenge in the manner requested" is in fact no challenge but is based on ignoring the first step of understanding a language and extracting meanings.

.. who (Mazhar) by the way has his own website on quran translation, comments on the http://corpus.quran.com/ website and imho is much better than you in understanding arabic..

http://www.haqeeqat.org.pk/English%20Tafsir%20e%20Haqeeqat/eng%20article.htm

Why do you think you think the thread became deflated after what ... 6 pages? u see .. ppl give you their reasons .. but because they don't fit in with your 2 prayer a day method .. you dismiss it .... Anyway ...good luck! I can't speak for anyone else .. but I think enough is said about your view on 2 salat. Just take this as feedback .... nothing more ...Saba 

[Wakas]

salaam saba,

...it seems you are looking for validation ...that is why you keep putting out these challenges on different forums...

Unevidenced assertion. I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/poisoning-the-well.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/circumstantial-ad-hominem.html
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/personal-attack.html

imho is much better than you in understanding arabic..

Most likely true, however I recommend reading up on:
http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/appeal-to-authority.html

Tell us saba, does Quran say those who know Arabic best will understand it best? If so, please provide the verse.

Even if we both agree that knowledge of Arabic is important, it is only one element used to derive an accurate understanding. I have already discussed in some detail about the other elements.


In any case, I feel I should clarify, when I requested forum members to participate in this thread, I meant in an evidence-based manner, actually based on the updated article, not with unevidenced/fallacious commentary.

[Joseph Islam]

In any case, as I said, take your time.

As-salam alaykum brother Wakas.

Thanks for your reply.

As I mentioned in my previous post, God willing and time permitting, I will go through them if I can.

Your brother in faith.
Joseph