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Messages - Nura

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General Discussions / Re: Contradiction??
« on: September 19, 2016, 02:43:41 PM »
Salam Wanderer

Not (it) is for the Prophet and those who believe that they ask forgiveness for the polytheists, even though they be near of kin, after [what] has become clear to them, that they (are the) companions (of) the Hellfire.

And not was (the) asking of forgiveness (by) Ibrahim for his father except because (of) a promise he had promised it (to) him. But when it became clear to him that he (was) an enemy to Allah, he disassociated from Indeed, Ibrahim (was) compassionate, forbearing.

These verses talk about a specific kind of people, people who not only disbelieve in God with a prophet present among them, but who torture the prophet and believers and break treaties. People who transgress boundaries and make it unduely hard for believers to practice their religion. There is a catch here, these people have proven to be among the people of hellfire, as we know prophets received information about hypocrites and other people who were harmful for their ministry from God. In both the cases the prophet ( Muhammad and Abraham) present was informed by God about the disbelief of these aforementioned people. It was revealed to these prophets by Allah that these people were people of hell. So, the prophets and believers were asked to react accordingly with them. But, currently we do not have a prophet among us, so we do not know the state of a person's faith or heart, nor are we informed who belongs to hell. We cannot apply these verses today. These were revealed to deal with a certain group of people who existed during the times of the prophet. In today's world, since we do not know for sure who is a true kafir, we can forgive them and pray for their guidance and forgiveness. Infact, we can do so because of verse 45:14.

Say to those who believe (to) forgive those who (do) not hope (for the) days (of) Allah; that He may recompense a people for what they used to earn.
Whoever does a righteous deed, then it is for his soul, and whoever does evil, then it (is) against it. Then to your Lord you will be returned.

Now, these verses are telling believers to forgive people who do not have hope for the fact that there will be a Day of Judgement, now these people maybe disbelievers or may also include believers whose faith have become jaded, after all the suffering and tragedies around them. God, is reassuring believers that there will be a day, when no soul will be wronged and everyone will get what they deserve. It is not for believers to judge. Only God can judge and we should simply be concerned with things that we can control, not things that are out of control like other people's actions and beliefs.

In other parts of the Quran, we are asked never to transgress against disbelievers. We cannot attack them first or torture them. We are only allowed do defend ourselves, but even then we are asked to do so mindfully. If, we transgress to protect ourselves and our right to practice our religion. God will punish us, the believers. We cannot harm any living thing out of aggression.

We are to always be kind and merciful to everyone, regardless of whether they are believers or not. And we should be quick to forgive everyone because we are also sinners, albeit of a different kind than true disbelievers ( no one knows who they are except God and prophets to whom this information was revealed during their respective ministries).

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 18, 2016, 07:46:25 PM »
Salam Brother Joseph

I was writing my reply when u posted ur reply. Sorry, if it was disrespectful. If, deemed correct the moderators can remove my post. Your answer is concise , to the point and not to mention much shorter than mine. I didn't mean any disrespect to anyone.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 18, 2016, 07:42:41 PM »
Salam Mehdi

I am sorry but I do not see eye to with you on this topic and I have multiple reasons to back me up. 


Indeed, Allah chose Adam and Nuh, and (the) family (of) Ibrahim and (the) family (of) Imran over the worlds.

Descendants, some of them from others. And Allah (is) All-Hearing, All-Knowing.

When [she] said (the) wife (of) Imran, "My Lord! Indeed, I vowed to You what (is) in my womb, dedicated, so accept from me. Indeed, You, You (are) the All-Hearing, the All-Knowing.

Then when she delivered her, she said, "My Lord, indeed I (have) delivered [her] a female." And Allah knows better [of] what she delivered, and is not the male like the female. "And that I (have) named her Maryam and that I seek refuge for her in You and her offspring from the Shaitaan the rejected."

So accepted her, her Lord with acceptance good, and reared her - a rearing good, and put her in (the) care (of) Zakariya. Whenever entered Zakariya in her [the] prayer chamber he found with her provision. He said, "O Maryam! From where for you (is) this?" She said, "This (is) from Allah. Indeed, Allah gives provision (to) whom He wills without measure."

With all due respect, we should let the Quran speak and do all that we can to not do anything to conform the verses to suit our worldview.

There is absolutely nothing in the verses above suggesting Mary was anything but a woman. Mary belonged to the family of Imran and God informed us that He chose the family of Imran and some of their descendants for His purpose. Many of the messengers and prophets were from the family of Imran and God's chosen members of this family were all males. Only male descendents were chosen to serve God's purpose. Mary's mother only prayed so that she could have a son and that son could also be of service to God. As per God's rule only males were chosen as messengers and prophets, so understandably Mary's mother became disappointed because up until that time only males from her family were chosen as God's special people. So she was simply disappointed. But God informs us that eventhough Mary's mother was sad that her female offspring won't be used by God in service like that as a male offspring but Allah accepted her baby and eventhough Mary was a female, God had plans for her. God chose Mary over all females. This is the message of verses 3:35 -3:36

By 'My lord I had delivered.....' She was just stating a fact that females were not traditionally chosen as God's agents and Mary's mother was dissapointed.
And by' God knew what she had delivered...' It is a hint that eventhough Mary's mother did not know at that time who she just gave birth to, but God knew who Mary was and she was not like any other woman and she had a purpose to serve in God's plan. A purpose no woman has ever served till now . Mary was special that is what is hinted here. Gender is not of importance in these verses (atleast from God's point of view, He did not mind that Mary was a girl) . The  verses are talking about how a female is not traditionally God's chosen agent.

There is no denial that Mary was a female, this is confirmation bias on your part sorry to say.

Moreover, throughout the Bible, Mary is referred to as a woman. We have an entire surah dedicated to Mary and a lot of verses where Allah clarifies religious concepts that have become unclear in the Bible. Never has Mary been thought of or referred to as anything than a woman in the Bible and the Quran. If Mary was not a woman, than God would have corrected our understanding in the Quran. God has corrected a lot of misunderstandings/misreadings in the Bible in the Quran.

Again 42:49-50, says God decides who He gives only sons or only daughters or a bunch of kids both male children and female children. And He choses to make some people childless. This is not a reference to intersex children. This verse was never understood like that and is still not.

Direct word for word translation does not allow us to have any doubt that this is again a confirmation bias on your part.

To Allah (belongs the) dominion (of) the heavens and the earth. He creates what He wills. He grants to whom He wills females, and He grants to whom He wills [the] males.
Or He grants them males and females; and He makes whom He wills barren. Indeed, He (is) All-Knower, All-Powerful.

I sincerely hope in the future we all will let the Quran speak rather than twist its words to fit a certain worldview.

General Discussions / Re: Virgin Birth & ALLAH's laws...
« on: September 17, 2016, 05:04:26 PM »
Salam everyone

She said, "How can be for me a son, when not has touched me a man, and not I am unchaste?"

For me the theory, Mary was a hermaphrodite falls on its face when this ayat is studied. No one knows about their gender and sexuality more than their ownselves. Here, Mary is saying that how can she have a son when no man has touched her? And since she was not married, she said that she did not sleep with a man outside the marriage bond making use of the word 'unchaste' . But, the most important thing is that, she is aware that she can bear children if a man touches her. This proves that she knew she was a woman and a man can impregnate her. If Mary was a hermaphrodite, she would have known herself, and she would have cited that as a reason ( her hermaphroditism) to not being able to bear children. It is highly unlikely and preposterous to suggest that Mary didn't know she was a hermaphrodite. Most hermaphrodite people become aware of their hermaphroditism as adults. But, she clearly informs that she is capable of bearing children but a man has to touch her, hinting clearly that she was a woman and she was aware of that.

General Discussions / Re: Kaaba sanctuary
« on: September 09, 2016, 09:39:43 AM »
Salam Abdurrahman

These are circumstances created by the Saudi Authorities. We will not be asked to explain or give reasons for actions/circumstances created by others. If, they are wrongfully barring people ( believers from Ahlekitab, women without mahram etc) who can rightfully visit the kaaba ( right to visit the kaaba given to them in Quran) and making the visit for them unduely difficult, it is something that they have to answer to Allah for, not us.

Why will Kaaba, Mecca and other holy sites lose their sanctity for the actions of a misguided people? The Kaaba, Mecca and other holy sites retain their sanctity regardless of what these people are doing or will do in the future.

The Quran is not being properly followed by a lot of people who claim to be muslims, but does that mean the Quran is not a book of guidance anymore?
No, the Quran remains the authorised book of guidance for believers, if we are not following the Quran the way we are supposed to, we have to answer. Our actions reflect how we are, it has nothing to say about the Quran's ability to guide muslims.

General Discussions / Re: lashes for drinking in prophets time
« on: September 09, 2016, 09:26:01 AM »
Salam Yahya

The thing about the drinking, there is no mention of that happening in the Quran, so it is highly doubtful that the prophet used to lash people for drinking. Since, it is not mentioned in Quran, and none of us witnessed it by ourselves, we cannot say this used to happen. If, this practice is carried out today, then this is done because of injunctions present in other sources but not in Quran, but so do muslims of today do other things like stoning for adultery, killing of apostates, prayers not accepted for 40 days for drinking etc . All these are practices/ believes that are practiced today in muslim countries but do not have a Quranic injunction. I am not sure what do u want to know? But, if a belief/practice is not mentioned in the Quran, muslims are not required to do them, but muslims do these because they follow other sources besides the Quran ( hadith, sira etc)  that are not sanctioned or have any religious authority according to the Quran. The Quran is the sole source of religious guidance for believers. Please read the relevant artice on the website by Brother Joseph.

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 05:47:36 PM »
Salam Gahaille and everyone  :)

Thank u for correcting me! It was wrong of me to say water is the 'only' compound that has a solid with a denser liquid state, I overlooked that I used the term 'only'. I am aware about silicon dioxide. Anyways, I did not want to go into a lengthy discussion about chemical compounds and their nature. So, I tried to keep the discussion simpler. Nonetheless, it was wrong of me to use the word 'only' and to otherwise imply water is the only substance that behaves in this peculiar way.

My intention was to just point out some of the basic limitations of science in understanding the material world. I am a woman of science and I hold science in high esteem but when it comes to my personal approach to understanding Quran, I just do not put any greater emphasis on science than any other branches of knowledge that I have been fortunate enough to be a student of.

I never said, we cannot use science to understand Quran. I just wanted to tell u guys to be careful and not to make science or our own understanding of science have a greater weight than the words of scripture. I have seen this happening in my life, men and women of science, enthusiastically approaching the Quran and trying to reconcile scripture with keeping Science as the ultimate discerning tool of the veracity of Quran as scripture. And they have left Islam and now are proud apostates spewing hateful speech about the Quran. I never wanted this to happen to anyone of you. That's all. :)

I still believe that Quran is not a book of science, it is a book of God. True Science helps us understand some of the verses because science is also from Allah but Science helps us to understand how we and other creations were made by Allah and how these laws are governed by Him. He creates what He wants and He can and will bend the laws of Science whenever He deems it fit. God and scripture is above science.

Please do not misunderstand and think I am against using science. Nothing can be farther from the truth. But I am conscious of overtly relying on science as the discerner of absolute truth. I have faith in science but moreso in the words of the Quran.

I concur fully with what Hamzeh has shared.

General Discussions / Re: Quran and Hadith
« on: August 29, 2016, 08:19:34 AM »
Salam Everyone

This approach has a flaw. When we say we cannot accept hadith as having religious authority as is our 'Qurancentric approach', we cannot then make use of hadith to back up our claims whenever some of them seem to be supporting our core beliefs.

This is circular reasoning, hadith was burnt because hadiths say so! But some hadiths claim the complete opposite as Amira has rightly said. Which ones can u choose to believe without a bias? We cannot cherry-pick. Clearly, we would like to believe those hadiths that back up our core beliefs, i.e those that say hadith was never meant to be written down, or were burnt. But the same books have other hadiths that say we must follow hadiths and they were asked to be written down.

The only reason that is logically fullproof about not following hadith is not that of authenticity of matn (content) or isnad( chain of narration). It is the one of authority! Does the Quran give the Hadiths/ anything outside Quran, religious authority or sanctions the use of these outside sources for religious guidance? The answer is NO.

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 07:48:25 AM »
Salam Wanderer

All of what u said are probable theories with rebuttals and objections. What u posted is high school science, once u go to college u will unlearn a lot of things u learnt in highschool. That is just where I will stop my discussion with u on this topic. For various personal reasons( safety concerns mainly) I do not disclose my credentials on this forum. But, I would still kindly remind u, I never post things before I carry out my own research. I would like to hope u keep that in mind, I never post anything whimsically or without enough concrete knowledge to back up my claims.

The question was not why ice floats on water, it is the only compound that has a less denser solid than a liquid state. No other compound has a less denser solid state than its liquid state, why that is exactly is not explained satisfactorily by any scientific theory till now. We only know ice is not denser than water, we cannot explain why.
So, no, science does not give explanations everytime. Sometimes it just gives us observations. No scientific explanation exist for a lot of things.

My point was that , science is not the ultimate tool that can unlock the secrets of the Quran. Science can explain some verses, not all. But we have to believe in those verses also with seemingly no scientific expalnation or sometimes contrary to science.

You may take science to be like a code now, take graduate level college courses in the sciences ( not undergrad stuff, the stuff taught beyond undergrad) , we will talk after. But I wish you all the best with your endeavours. Science has its limitations u will learn this soon enough  :)

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 05:53:43 AM »
Dear wanderer

You said :
'  The material world is completely explainable by the laws of nature,.... '

By this if u mean science can explain the material world completely, then I disagree with it, because that is not the case always. We cannot even explain why water, a fairly abundant substance behaves the way that it does using science. When I was in highschool I was also led to believe that science knows all the answers, it is our champion and is the only way to uncover and understand the material world. But modern science is nowhere near to explaining half the phenomenon occuring in the material world.

For example, a very simple principle of matter is that a liquid fills less volume when it freezes into a solid. That's because the molecules are closer together, which is why it gets hard. But water, unlike anything else, actually expands when it freezes, as you'll know if you've ever had a juice can explode in the freezer after forgetting about it. This is why ice cubes float , unlike any other substance, the frozen version is lighter and less dense than the liquid version. Why? Nobody knows. It's been a mystery to science.  There are complicated theories, but none of them are proven beyond doubt yet. In fact, despite the fact that water is the most ubiquitous substance, we know embarrassingly little about it.

Why is ice slippery? Science doesn't have a concrete answer for that either.

That's not where water's mysteries end, either. For some reason, hot water freezes faster than cold water. That is to say, if you take a glass of hot water and a glass of cold water and put them both in the freezer at the same time, the hot water will turn to ice before the cold water does. It's called the Mpemba effect.Again, the reason for this is completely unknown.

The more you will gain knowledge, the more u will learn just how much we do not know and how much the power or ability of science is overrated. Science cannot explain every phenomenon in the natural world. Science helps us to observe and make conclusions but in many cases science cannot explain why matter behaves the way it does. Just the way we can say ice is slippery but we cannot conclusively explain why exactly using modern scientific knowledge.

Science proves to be helpful in many cases, but it does not have the final say or the only say when it comes to better understanding the laws of scripture / scripture in general or laws of nature / the material world in general.

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 04:03:26 AM »
Dear wanderer :)

No need to apologise, it is a sincere question to understand my approach. I am happy to explain. When I approach the verses, I do not put more emphasis on science than other branches of knowledge. I put equal emphasis on science, ration, logic, emotion, social sciences, culture also knowledge of Arabic language and its nuances. It is not a belief that using  science only as the ultimate criterion was not given authority, it is a fact. Quran does not say belief in what only science can explain. Revelation is not limited to science.  No branch of knowledge was given the ultimate status of being a criterion or benchmark. But this does not mean science is not considered worthy at all. I am just saying not to become too focused on using science alone. Science has its limitations. We humans know very little genuine truths both about us and other creations. We assume a lot. Even in the field of science. There are a lot of scientific beliefs which do not have concrete proofs. We assume them to be true because there is not enough evidence to disprove it. U will get exposed to this in graduate level theoretical physics. This happens in all human branches of knowledge and by this I mean branches of knowledge where we did not receive knowledge directly from Allah confirming our findings. Science is a tool nothing more.

But science has led many to leave islam and this is a fact also. Many have concluded that a virgin birth is impossible, so Quran was lying. They put science over scripture and became misguided. I am just saying too much reliance on anything other than God, be it science, has the potential to mislead u. This is not hypothetical, this has happened.

Science satisfies or atleast attempts to satisfy the rational side of humans. But it completely ignores the spiritual aspects and the paranormal realm of things that can't be objectively proven to exist using our five senses or enhanced five senses ( microscope and other scientific gadgets only can magnify or amplify our five senses, they do not give us or help us develope extra senses with which to perceive).

I am simply saying, Do not put all your eggs in one basket. Do not believe anything or anyone above God and learn to trust your instincts and your intellect. We are not complete rational beings, we have other beautiful aspects too like emotional, spiritual which add to our complexity. U cannot understand God by ignoring these aspects about yourself or others because God considers as a whole, not as only rational beings. If we were only rational, believers would have never sinned, because it is irratinal to sin when u know u will have to answer and be judged. But believers do sin, and we also seek forgiveness because we are not completely rational,we have desires and desires are not always rational, and that is how we were created. Our rationality just helps us understand the reasons why we do something. But our human behaviour is not driven by ration alone, human emotion and desire plays a big part. U will learn this in economics that humans are rational beings, is an assumption, because the irrationalities of our everyday behaviour is enough to say this about us.

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:29:26 AM »
Dear wanderer :)

It is ok. No harm no foul. I get a bit upset when I am misquoted. I am sorry if I hurt u :(

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:21:08 AM »
Dear wandere

No I did not say do not use Science, I said science has limitations. I said Science as we know today as a subject was never authorised by God as a criterion. Well, God did not tell us that believe what only science can explain and do not believe what science cannot explain. Current scientific knowledge cannot explain a lot of things in the Quran. Are u suggesting we should not believe in them? If we take that approach, we cannot believe in God, science cannot explain who God is. But Quran has. Just like the number nineteen and mathematics was not mentioned as an authorised way of judging the Quran. We can see what happens when we get carried away by a criterion, number 19, which was never authorised by God. Now 19ers believe two verses were added to Quran just to fit their understanding.  Knowledge is not only science, it has other branches, my point was all are important. My point was never to make science or anything as the ultimate criterion. Current science will not help u understand the incidents I mentioned

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:15:32 AM »
Dear wanderer

According to science there is not enough reason to believe or disbelieve in God! Science is not enough to prove or disprove the existence of God and that is a fact. Belief in God is not an entirely scientific belief. A lot of knowledge, knowledge from science as well as other fields help us conclude that there is a God. Not science alone. 

General Discussions / Re: 67:5 and 37:6 shooting stars or planets
« on: August 29, 2016, 03:07:00 AM »
Dear Wanderer

I did not say Science cannot be used. I said every gift we have has to be used including logic, ration, science, emotion unseen parallel universe. Science cannot explain the miracles I mentioned. Please explain jinns, angels, virgin birth using modern science to me! Can u please read posts carefully before jumping into conclusions! I did not say science cannot be used. Putting undue emphasis on science alone has its loopholes. U do not have to agree with me. But do not misquote me or say that I said something which I did not. Please reread my previous post. I said science cannot be used as the ultimate criterion. Reason does not automatically equal science!

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