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#11
Q&As with Joseph Islam - Information Only / Guidance, and succuor
Last post by fireheart47 - June 12, 2025, 11:08:13 AMDear Joseph Islam,
Could you please give me advice, your opinion, or any scripture in reference to the following questions?
How do we manage hatred towards others, even for seemingly just reasons or because of past grievances?
How do we continue to believe when it feels like Allah is not with us?
In your experience or stories of others, can people heal from sicknesses? How do we get there? Or how do we accept our situation?
Thank you,
Fireheart47
Could you please give me advice, your opinion, or any scripture in reference to the following questions?
How do we manage hatred towards others, even for seemingly just reasons or because of past grievances?
How do we continue to believe when it feels like Allah is not with us?
In your experience or stories of others, can people heal from sicknesses? How do we get there? Or how do we accept our situation?
Thank you,
Fireheart47
#12
Discussions / Re: Wisconsin, USA
Last post by fireheart47 - May 17, 2025, 05:03:52 AMDear QM Forum,
Part of the reason why I had the courage and faith to look deeper into the Qur'an is because of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Years after I met a muslim and began to practice calligraphy, I asked questions about Hebrew-Arabic cognates and if Muslim theologians had written about certain topics like the use of the word "muhammed" as an adjective rather than a name.
I used AI chat bot at https://chat.chatgptdemo.net/ , which requires an ad blocker. I've also benefited from other technologies, like Root Search in Islamicity (https://www.islamicity.org/quransearch/?q=#), searchable Qur'an (https://qurano.com/ , requires ad blocker). I was recommended by a Catholic person with Jewish ancestry the ad blocker add-on for Firefox Browser uBlock Origin. After I made these posts, I also used Llama 3.0 at https://duck.ai to learn about other topics.
Strangely, I thought of the idea, where the angel Gabriel could be described as the strength of time, on my own, while I used Llama 3.0. Yet, I didn't ask it a question. Most often I tell it my beliefs, and through that process I think of new things that I didn't think of before. It is strange and frustrating, because I know some people will not believe or understand the nuanced truth. I am ashamed that I gained knowledge from AI, and want you to know how much it has influenced my thinking, because I want to be honest.
Most of the information I've shared was observed without the help of AI chatbot. Yet, without the AI chatbot, who knows if I would've been capable of making the next step. Who knows if I would've had faith strong enough to encourage me to search in the Qur'an and believe that the similarities between these religions are valid.
I feel ashamed that I write sloppily, and don't give as much attention to my forum posts as other works of text. The Qur'an is important, and it deserves the order and detail, which Joseph Islam demonstrates so well.
Allah knows. May we all be protected from dogmatic violent people, who would hurt or kill for religious reasons. May we repent and be forgiven, and be given the life Allah wants to build for us. May we be guided to prevent our sins, so we don't suffer more. May we see the bigger picture, so each other's sins become smaller and forgivable. May we receive succor from Allah, may we be comforted by Allah, may we find people who can do the will of Allah and give comforting words and compassion.
May we find peace where we live, and see the positive things about the world around us. May those words encourage each other to do good deeds and not destructive vengeance. May this all make sense in the future, so we can find peace.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Part of the reason why I had the courage and faith to look deeper into the Qur'an is because of Artificial Intelligence (AI). Years after I met a muslim and began to practice calligraphy, I asked questions about Hebrew-Arabic cognates and if Muslim theologians had written about certain topics like the use of the word "muhammed" as an adjective rather than a name.
I used AI chat bot at https://chat.chatgptdemo.net/ , which requires an ad blocker. I've also benefited from other technologies, like Root Search in Islamicity (https://www.islamicity.org/quransearch/?q=#), searchable Qur'an (https://qurano.com/ , requires ad blocker). I was recommended by a Catholic person with Jewish ancestry the ad blocker add-on for Firefox Browser uBlock Origin. After I made these posts, I also used Llama 3.0 at https://duck.ai to learn about other topics.
Strangely, I thought of the idea, where the angel Gabriel could be described as the strength of time, on my own, while I used Llama 3.0. Yet, I didn't ask it a question. Most often I tell it my beliefs, and through that process I think of new things that I didn't think of before. It is strange and frustrating, because I know some people will not believe or understand the nuanced truth. I am ashamed that I gained knowledge from AI, and want you to know how much it has influenced my thinking, because I want to be honest.
Most of the information I've shared was observed without the help of AI chatbot. Yet, without the AI chatbot, who knows if I would've been capable of making the next step. Who knows if I would've had faith strong enough to encourage me to search in the Qur'an and believe that the similarities between these religions are valid.
I feel ashamed that I write sloppily, and don't give as much attention to my forum posts as other works of text. The Qur'an is important, and it deserves the order and detail, which Joseph Islam demonstrates so well.
Allah knows. May we all be protected from dogmatic violent people, who would hurt or kill for religious reasons. May we repent and be forgiven, and be given the life Allah wants to build for us. May we be guided to prevent our sins, so we don't suffer more. May we see the bigger picture, so each other's sins become smaller and forgivable. May we receive succor from Allah, may we be comforted by Allah, may we find people who can do the will of Allah and give comforting words and compassion.
May we find peace where we live, and see the positive things about the world around us. May those words encourage each other to do good deeds and not destructive vengeance. May this all make sense in the future, so we can find peace.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#13
Discussions / Re: anti hadith resource idea
Last post by fireheart47 - May 10, 2025, 04:15:53 AMDear Wakas,
Thank you for all your work to differentiate the Ahadith from the Qur'an. You have helped me understand the importance of primary sources.
It seems the Hadith are a source of conflict, between believers and non-believers, and which prevent non-believers from becoming believers. Much of the anti-Muslim rhetoric comes from people who do not know the difference between Qur'an and Ahadith, like myself not too long ago. Yet, the Ahadith also seem like a good secondary source, even though they seem to require a scholarly approach.
I believe all our scriptures benefit from a scholarly approach. Because scripture requires linguistics and historical comparison to make sense of everything.
The main scriptures (TaNaKh, Bible, Qur'an) seem to have a historical innate value and represent a world of knowledge, which adds context and wisdom. The Qur'an is important, and adds context even to the Jewish and Christian perspectives. Another reason why the Qur'an is important, is because it values simplicity and clarity of word.
Despite the many inspired secondary books about the Bible in the Christian world (ex: Hymnals, Book of Mormon, Course on Miracles, obscure ministries like Witness Lee, etc...), the Qur'an is the revelation of an Arab Prophet. The word "Hebrew" (those who crossed over from Mesopotamia to Egypt) and "Arab" (nomad, also similar to the word "erev" or west) seem to have the same connotation.
The name Gabriel seems to repeat across the scriptures as a source of prophetic knowledge ( https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-Gabriel.html ). It seems as if it indicates the miracle of information preserved through time. The strength of time. There is no other document or recitation like the Qur'an. It fits in a very important niche, which explains the Abrahamic worldview from the perspective of the believers outside of Judea, the origin of the first scribes exiled in Babylon. Without Jewish scribes, we would not have the Torah or any later revelations.
We search for a personal connection to Allah through prayer, because Allah is the source of everything. We prioritize and value the documents, which preserve the oldest information. The Qur'an is unique, because although it was recited and written after the time of Jesus, it contains information about ancient Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt that the Gospels do not. This is a sign.
Here is an article about a controversial Hadith, which when studied scholarly gives a more plausible and meaningful answer. Many people say that the Prophet Muhammed had a nine year old wife, and use it to slander his name and the religion of Islam. https://www.islamicity.org/104636/was-aisha-ra-9-years-old-when-she-married-the-prophet/
The article says:
I agree with the people in this video and article from Islamicity, because I believe it is important to honor and defend the Prophet Muhammed, who was the messenger that delivered the Qur'an.
As someone who comes from a Christian background and who admires Jesus as an important prophet and a distinguished Jewish leader, I believe it is important to keep balance and honor Prophet Muhammed, who is revered by so many people.
Without the Prophet Muhammed, there would be no Qur'an. I hope scholars can learn to guide their studies of the scriptures around their faith. I hope scholars can search to prove things true, or give context, rather than using their knowledge to invalidate and critique each other.
To provide more context to the aforementioned Hadith about Aisha. One of my great-grandparents was 18 at the time of marriage.
Another perspective is that Aisha was indeed 9 years old, and it was the tradition of those old times. Yet, I want to search for the truth, because I do not find that acceptable in comparison to all the other good deeds of the Prophet Muhammed.
Others have also criticized the Talmud, for verses which talk about 3 year olds in marriage. Scholars of Jewish literature and believers should seek to find the answer for these similar topics. In one instance, I had heard a Mexican-American person say "of third age" or "de tercer edad" in reference to the elderly. In time, perhaps we will know more.
Simple outline of documents and records (For inspiration)
*Beginning of time from the perspective of the people tracking time through narrations.
Surah al-Ma'arij 70:3-7
Sahih Intl.
Sincerely,
Firehear47
Thank you for all your work to differentiate the Ahadith from the Qur'an. You have helped me understand the importance of primary sources.
It seems the Hadith are a source of conflict, between believers and non-believers, and which prevent non-believers from becoming believers. Much of the anti-Muslim rhetoric comes from people who do not know the difference between Qur'an and Ahadith, like myself not too long ago. Yet, the Ahadith also seem like a good secondary source, even though they seem to require a scholarly approach.
I believe all our scriptures benefit from a scholarly approach. Because scripture requires linguistics and historical comparison to make sense of everything.
The main scriptures (TaNaKh, Bible, Qur'an) seem to have a historical innate value and represent a world of knowledge, which adds context and wisdom. The Qur'an is important, and adds context even to the Jewish and Christian perspectives. Another reason why the Qur'an is important, is because it values simplicity and clarity of word.
Despite the many inspired secondary books about the Bible in the Christian world (ex: Hymnals, Book of Mormon, Course on Miracles, obscure ministries like Witness Lee, etc...), the Qur'an is the revelation of an Arab Prophet. The word "Hebrew" (those who crossed over from Mesopotamia to Egypt) and "Arab" (nomad, also similar to the word "erev" or west) seem to have the same connotation.
The name Gabriel seems to repeat across the scriptures as a source of prophetic knowledge ( https://www.gotquestions.org/angel-Gabriel.html ). It seems as if it indicates the miracle of information preserved through time. The strength of time. There is no other document or recitation like the Qur'an. It fits in a very important niche, which explains the Abrahamic worldview from the perspective of the believers outside of Judea, the origin of the first scribes exiled in Babylon. Without Jewish scribes, we would not have the Torah or any later revelations.
We search for a personal connection to Allah through prayer, because Allah is the source of everything. We prioritize and value the documents, which preserve the oldest information. The Qur'an is unique, because although it was recited and written after the time of Jesus, it contains information about ancient Mesopotamia and ancient Egypt that the Gospels do not. This is a sign.
Here is an article about a controversial Hadith, which when studied scholarly gives a more plausible and meaningful answer. Many people say that the Prophet Muhammed had a nine year old wife, and use it to slander his name and the religion of Islam. https://www.islamicity.org/104636/was-aisha-ra-9-years-old-when-she-married-the-prophet/
The article says:
- The sayings (Ahadith) that mention Aisha, are a secondary type from the companions, called a "hadith mursal".
- Other books reveal the local traditions of women and how they interpreted their age after puberty
- Sister of Aisha is mentioned, and their ages can be inferred by comparison
- The age of Aisha was probably 17 or 18
I agree with the people in this video and article from Islamicity, because I believe it is important to honor and defend the Prophet Muhammed, who was the messenger that delivered the Qur'an.
As someone who comes from a Christian background and who admires Jesus as an important prophet and a distinguished Jewish leader, I believe it is important to keep balance and honor Prophet Muhammed, who is revered by so many people.
Without the Prophet Muhammed, there would be no Qur'an. I hope scholars can learn to guide their studies of the scriptures around their faith. I hope scholars can search to prove things true, or give context, rather than using their knowledge to invalidate and critique each other.
To provide more context to the aforementioned Hadith about Aisha. One of my great-grandparents was 18 at the time of marriage.
Another perspective is that Aisha was indeed 9 years old, and it was the tradition of those old times. Yet, I want to search for the truth, because I do not find that acceptable in comparison to all the other good deeds of the Prophet Muhammed.
Others have also criticized the Talmud, for verses which talk about 3 year olds in marriage. Scholars of Jewish literature and believers should seek to find the answer for these similar topics. In one instance, I had heard a Mexican-American person say "of third age" or "de tercer edad" in reference to the elderly. In time, perhaps we will know more.
Simple outline of documents and records (For inspiration)
- Torah, Nevim, Khetuvim
- Gospels, Paul's Letters, other letters
- The Qur'an
*Beginning of time from the perspective of the people tracking time through narrations.
Surah al-Ma'arij 70:3-7
Quoteمِّنَ ٱللَّهِ ذِى ٱلْمَعَارِجِ
تَعْرُجُ ٱلْمَلَـٰٓئِكَةُ وَٱلرُّوحُ إِلَيْهِ فِى يَوْمٍ كَانَ مِقْدَارُهُۥ خَمْسِينَ أَلْفَ سَنَةٍ
فَٱصْبِرْ صَبْرًا جَمِيلًا
إِنَّهُمْ يَرَوْنَهُۥ بَعِيدًا
وَنَرَىٰهُ قَرِيبًا
Sahih Intl.
Quote3.[It is] from Allah , owner of the ways of ascent.
4. The angels and the Spirit will ascend to Him during a Day the extent of which is fifty thousand years.
5. So be patient with gracious patience.
6. Indeed, they see it [as] distant,
7. But We see it [as] near.
Sincerely,
Firehear47
#14
Discussions / Re: New article: Quran Vs Hadi...
Last post by Wakas - May 06, 2025, 12:24:45 AMI have added another:
See article for references.
21. **Even the most attested hadith have issues**
The hadith considered most mutawatir (mass-transmitted)—"Whoever lies about me (intentionally) will enter Hellfire"—shows variation in its wording. [reference]
Likewise, the Prophet's Farewell Sermon, arguably the most widely witnessed hadith, exists in multiple versions with significant differences. For example, some versions instruct followers to uphold: (1) the Quran alone, (2) the Quran and Sunnah, (3) the Quran and Ahl al-Bayt, while others omit this instruction entirely. Among these, version (1) appears to be the most widely attested. [reference]
If even the most broadly transmitted hadith contain discrepancies, it follows logically that less well-attested hadith should be approached with even greater scrutiny and caution. Thus, even the most widely attested hadith cannot equal the Quran in terms of its textual integrity and precision.
See article for references.
21. **Even the most attested hadith have issues**
The hadith considered most mutawatir (mass-transmitted)—"Whoever lies about me (intentionally) will enter Hellfire"—shows variation in its wording. [reference]
Likewise, the Prophet's Farewell Sermon, arguably the most widely witnessed hadith, exists in multiple versions with significant differences. For example, some versions instruct followers to uphold: (1) the Quran alone, (2) the Quran and Sunnah, (3) the Quran and Ahl al-Bayt, while others omit this instruction entirely. Among these, version (1) appears to be the most widely attested. [reference]
If even the most broadly transmitted hadith contain discrepancies, it follows logically that less well-attested hadith should be approached with even greater scrutiny and caution. Thus, even the most widely attested hadith cannot equal the Quran in terms of its textual integrity and precision.
#15
Discussions / New article: Quran Vs Hadith :...
Last post by Wakas - May 04, 2025, 06:32:09 AM**Arguments Against the Common Claim that the Quran Came to Us in the Same Way as Hadith**
(i.e. same people and method)
Download PDF:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/PDF/QuranVHadith.pdf
Please click on link for original format with clickable links:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/QuranVsHadith.html
###
1. **The Quran Was Recited and Memorized VERBATIM, Unlike Hadith**
The Quran was transmitted word-for-word (verbatim) by its reciters and memorizers. In contrast, almost all hadith are transmitted "riwayah bil ma'ana" (with meaning or gist), meaning they are passed on in paraphrased form, not verbatim.
2. **Direct Supervision of the Prophet in the Compilation of the Quran**
The Quran was recorded during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad under his direct supervision, either through memorization or by writing. While some argue not all parts were recorded during his lifetime, it is widely accepted that most of the Quran was compiled in his presence or immediately thereafter.
3. **The Quran is the Word of God, While Hadith Are Human Words**
The Quran is universally considered the direct, unaltered word of God. In contrast, hadith are the alleged words of the Prophet Muhammad, recorded and narrated by human beings, subject to human error and interpretation.
4. **Public Recitation of the Quran Facilitated Mass Memorization**
The Quran was recited publicly on a daily basis, creating a widespread environment conducive to memorization and transmission. It is said to be the most recited and memorized book in the world. Public recitation of hadith, on the other hand, did not exist at the time.
5. **The Quran Was Compiled Before the Civil Wars That Disrupted Islamic Unity**
The compilation of the Quran into its final form took place before the turbulent period of civil wars, which led to political and sectarian rivalries. This period is known to have introduced challenges to the authenticity of hadith transmission. In contrast, the Quran's compilation occurred in a relatively stable context, minimizing risks of later alterations. In fact it is famously said the "isnad" (chain of narration) was only needed after this due to fabrications.
6. **Massive Fabrication of Hadith vs. Minimal Fabrication of the Quran**
It is widely accepted that there was significant fabrication in the transmission of hadith. By contrast, there are very few, if any, documented cases of Quranic fabrication.
7. **The Need for Authentication in Hadith Transmission**
The methods used to filter and authenticate hadith—such as the isnad (chain of narration) and narrator criticism—emerged because hadith were not transmitted with the same communal consensus as the Quran. There is no comparable "science of Quran" to authenticate its verses. It wasn't needed!
8. **The Quran Was Memorized by Hundreds or Thousands; Hadith, Not So Much**
During the early period of Islam, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of Quran memorizers. No such equivalent exists for hadith. For example, during the battle of Yamama, hundreds of Quran memorizers are reported to have died, but there are no reports that mention casualties among hadith memorizers – it wasn't a thing to be mentioned!
9. **Memorizing the Quran Is Different from Memorizing Hadith**
Memorizing the Quran, a fixed and structured text, is categorically different from memorizing the fluid, diverse, and lengthy hadith reports. The Quran also benefits from rhythmic prose and other mnemonic devices that aid memorization—tools that are absent from hadith. Quran explicitly states it was made easy to remember, [e.g. 54:17].
10. **The Quran is Universally the Same Across Sects**
Despite differences in sectarian beliefs, all major Islamic sects (Sunni, Shia, etc.) have the same Quran. In contrast, each sect has its own collection of hadith, reflecting the varied interpretations and transmissions.
11. **Early Muslims Exercised Caution in Transmitting Hadith**
While Quranic recitation and transmission were actively encouraged, there was significant caution regarding the transmission of hadith during the early years of Islam. Bans on hadith transmission were imposed across the Muslim world for decades after the Prophet's death [source].
12. **Hadith and the Quran Are Not on the Same Epistemic Level**
Even with rigorous methods for authenticating hadith, no human-authenticated text, no matter how meticulously verified, can be placed on the same epistemic level as the Quran. For example, there is much dispute today over which hadith are truly "sahih" (authentic), with scholars disagreeing on the reliability of narrators and reports, e.g. Imam Malik, Daraqutni, Albani.
13. **The First Four Caliphs Took Formal Steps to Preserve the Quran, But Not Hadith**
The first four caliphs made significant efforts to preserve the Quran. In fact, they actively discouraged the transmission of hadith, with some even ordering the destruction of collections. The preservation of hadith, in contrast, was not a priority in the early caliphate.
14. **Zayd ibn Thabit: The Key Scribe of the Quran vs. Hadith**
Zayd ibn Thabit, probably the most prominent scribe of the Quran, is cited in only a handful of hadith isnads (about 5 out of approximately 15,000 in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim).
15. **God's Protection of the Quran (15:9) vs. No In-built Protection for Hadith**
The Quran is explicitly stated to be protected by God (Quran 15:9), and its authenticity is supported by internal consistency—no contradictions or variance should be found within it, bring a chapter like it etc. Hadith collections, by contrast, are filled with contradictions and varying versions of events, with no in-built checking mechanisms.
16. **Hadith Gained Mainstream Legal Status Only After Imam Shafi'i**
While the Quran was universally acknowledged as the primary source of law from the beginning, the legal use of hadith as a source of law did not go mainstream until the time of Imam Shafi'i. Shafi'i is credited with elevating hadith to an equal footing with the Quran, which significantly altered the way Sunnah was defined.
17. **Most popular Quran transmission is from Hafs**
Who is considered strong in Quran narration but weak in hadith narration.
Conversely the most prolific hadith narrator is Abu Hurayrah yet he is not known for being a Quran memorizer or Quran reciter.
18. **Dating of Earliest complete Manuscript: Quran vs. Hadith**
The earliest extant carbon-dated manuscript of the Quran (such as the Sanaa manuscript, Topkapi) is approximately 200 years after the Prophet. In contrast, the earliest complete manuscript of Sahih Bukhari dates to about 450 years after the Prophet, underscoring the differences in the preservation timelines of the two texts.
19. **Earliest carbon dated extant manuscript**
For Quran it is to the time of prophet (e.g. Birmingham Quran).
For hadith it is a tiny fragment of Malik's Muwatta (approx 200 years after prophet).
Some claim Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih is the earliest but this is a reproduction of the original and there is no carbon dating.
20. **Question over transmitter of Sahih Bukhari's Primary Copy**
The version of Sahih Bukhari that forms the basis of the widely accepted text today is transmitted through his student, Muhammad ibn Yusuf al-Firabri. However, no contemporaries of Firabri are known to have explicitly vouched for his reliability—e.g. no one is recorded as describing him as thiqa (trustworthy). There is perhaps not even a record of any peer making a positive statement about him. It seems he is not well known by his immediate peers.
#####
To end here are some interesting (albeit ultimately unverifiable) reports about hadith from the first 3 Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman:
In Tadhkirat al-huffaz, al-Dhahabi cites:
Daughter of Abu Bakr, ʿAʾishah is reported to have said:
"My father collected Hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and it was five hundred Hadiths. One night, he was very uneasy, tossing and turning much. I also felt uneasy because of this, so I said, 'Are you turning because of an ailment, or have you heard news that upset you?' In the morning, he said, 'O daughter, bring the Hadiths.' I brought them, and he asked for a flame and burnt them. I said, 'Why did you burn them?' He said, 'I feared lest I die while they are with me containing narrations that I heard from a man whom I trusted and whose narrations I considered to be correct while in reality they are not; then I would have quoted incorrect narrations from him.'"
Abu Bakr addressed the people after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) passing, expressing concern over disagreements arising from narrations of the Prophet's sayings. He advised:
"You relate from the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be God's peace and benediction, traditions regarding which you disagree, and consequently severer controversy shall occur among people. So relate nothing from the Messenger of Allah, and when asked by anyone, you can say: The Book of Allah is the arbitrator between us. Deem lawful what it considers lawful, and deem unlawful what is considered unlawful in it."
Reports from Shu'bah, from Sa'id ibn Ibrahim from his father, that Umar detained Ibn Mas'ud, Abu al-Darda', and Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari, saying to them "You have narrated hadith abundantly from the Messenger of Allah. It is reported that he had detained them in Medina, but they were set free by Uthman.
Abu Hurayrah, asked by Abu Salamah whether he used to narrate traditions as freely in Umar's time as he was then doing, replied "No, for if I had tried, 'Umar would have had me whipped."
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah: Ibn `Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But `Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us, and that is sufficient for us.'
Sahih al-Bukhari 114
"the hadith multiplied during the time of Umar then he called on the people to bring them to him, and when they brought them to him, he ordered them to be burned." Afterward he said "a Mishna like the Mishna of the People of the Book" (mathna'a ka mathna'at ahl al-Kitab)
Ref: Ibn Saad's "Tabaqat" (Volume 5)
Umar would say to his governors: "Be exclusively devoted to the Qur'an, and diminish the annotations of Muhammad, and I am your partner."
Ref: The History of al-Tabari [reference]
Ibn Sa'd, and Ibn Asakir reports from Mahmud ibn Labid that he said: I heard Uthman ibn Affan addressing people from over the pulpit: It is unlawful for everyone to narrate any hadith he never heard of during the time of Abu Bakr and that of Umar. Verily that which made me abstain from narrating from the Messenger of Allah was not to be among the most conscious of his Companions, but I heard him declaring: "Whoever ascribing to me something I never said, he shall verily occupy his (destined) abode in Fire."
Ref: "Hadith Literature, Its Origin, Development & Special Features" by Muhammad Zubayr Siddiqi, p23
Background:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm
References:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html
THE SAHIFAH OF HAMMAM IBN MUNABBIH
BukhariGate by Mufti Abu Layth
Quran and hadith manuscripts
QuranTalk blog
chatGPT.com
More articles:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/
(i.e. same people and method)
Download PDF:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/PDF/QuranVHadith.pdf
Please click on link for original format with clickable links:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/QuranVsHadith.html
###
1. **The Quran Was Recited and Memorized VERBATIM, Unlike Hadith**
The Quran was transmitted word-for-word (verbatim) by its reciters and memorizers. In contrast, almost all hadith are transmitted "riwayah bil ma'ana" (with meaning or gist), meaning they are passed on in paraphrased form, not verbatim.
2. **Direct Supervision of the Prophet in the Compilation of the Quran**
The Quran was recorded during the lifetime of the Prophet Muhammad under his direct supervision, either through memorization or by writing. While some argue not all parts were recorded during his lifetime, it is widely accepted that most of the Quran was compiled in his presence or immediately thereafter.
3. **The Quran is the Word of God, While Hadith Are Human Words**
The Quran is universally considered the direct, unaltered word of God. In contrast, hadith are the alleged words of the Prophet Muhammad, recorded and narrated by human beings, subject to human error and interpretation.
4. **Public Recitation of the Quran Facilitated Mass Memorization**
The Quran was recited publicly on a daily basis, creating a widespread environment conducive to memorization and transmission. It is said to be the most recited and memorized book in the world. Public recitation of hadith, on the other hand, did not exist at the time.
5. **The Quran Was Compiled Before the Civil Wars That Disrupted Islamic Unity**
The compilation of the Quran into its final form took place before the turbulent period of civil wars, which led to political and sectarian rivalries. This period is known to have introduced challenges to the authenticity of hadith transmission. In contrast, the Quran's compilation occurred in a relatively stable context, minimizing risks of later alterations. In fact it is famously said the "isnad" (chain of narration) was only needed after this due to fabrications.
6. **Massive Fabrication of Hadith vs. Minimal Fabrication of the Quran**
It is widely accepted that there was significant fabrication in the transmission of hadith. By contrast, there are very few, if any, documented cases of Quranic fabrication.
7. **The Need for Authentication in Hadith Transmission**
The methods used to filter and authenticate hadith—such as the isnad (chain of narration) and narrator criticism—emerged because hadith were not transmitted with the same communal consensus as the Quran. There is no comparable "science of Quran" to authenticate its verses. It wasn't needed!
8. **The Quran Was Memorized by Hundreds or Thousands; Hadith, Not So Much**
During the early period of Islam, there were hundreds, if not thousands, of Quran memorizers. No such equivalent exists for hadith. For example, during the battle of Yamama, hundreds of Quran memorizers are reported to have died, but there are no reports that mention casualties among hadith memorizers – it wasn't a thing to be mentioned!
9. **Memorizing the Quran Is Different from Memorizing Hadith**
Memorizing the Quran, a fixed and structured text, is categorically different from memorizing the fluid, diverse, and lengthy hadith reports. The Quran also benefits from rhythmic prose and other mnemonic devices that aid memorization—tools that are absent from hadith. Quran explicitly states it was made easy to remember, [e.g. 54:17].
10. **The Quran is Universally the Same Across Sects**
Despite differences in sectarian beliefs, all major Islamic sects (Sunni, Shia, etc.) have the same Quran. In contrast, each sect has its own collection of hadith, reflecting the varied interpretations and transmissions.
11. **Early Muslims Exercised Caution in Transmitting Hadith**
While Quranic recitation and transmission were actively encouraged, there was significant caution regarding the transmission of hadith during the early years of Islam. Bans on hadith transmission were imposed across the Muslim world for decades after the Prophet's death [source].
12. **Hadith and the Quran Are Not on the Same Epistemic Level**
Even with rigorous methods for authenticating hadith, no human-authenticated text, no matter how meticulously verified, can be placed on the same epistemic level as the Quran. For example, there is much dispute today over which hadith are truly "sahih" (authentic), with scholars disagreeing on the reliability of narrators and reports, e.g. Imam Malik, Daraqutni, Albani.
13. **The First Four Caliphs Took Formal Steps to Preserve the Quran, But Not Hadith**
The first four caliphs made significant efforts to preserve the Quran. In fact, they actively discouraged the transmission of hadith, with some even ordering the destruction of collections. The preservation of hadith, in contrast, was not a priority in the early caliphate.
14. **Zayd ibn Thabit: The Key Scribe of the Quran vs. Hadith**
Zayd ibn Thabit, probably the most prominent scribe of the Quran, is cited in only a handful of hadith isnads (about 5 out of approximately 15,000 in Sahih Bukhari and Muslim).
15. **God's Protection of the Quran (15:9) vs. No In-built Protection for Hadith**
The Quran is explicitly stated to be protected by God (Quran 15:9), and its authenticity is supported by internal consistency—no contradictions or variance should be found within it, bring a chapter like it etc. Hadith collections, by contrast, are filled with contradictions and varying versions of events, with no in-built checking mechanisms.
16. **Hadith Gained Mainstream Legal Status Only After Imam Shafi'i**
While the Quran was universally acknowledged as the primary source of law from the beginning, the legal use of hadith as a source of law did not go mainstream until the time of Imam Shafi'i. Shafi'i is credited with elevating hadith to an equal footing with the Quran, which significantly altered the way Sunnah was defined.
17. **Most popular Quran transmission is from Hafs**
Who is considered strong in Quran narration but weak in hadith narration.
Conversely the most prolific hadith narrator is Abu Hurayrah yet he is not known for being a Quran memorizer or Quran reciter.
18. **Dating of Earliest complete Manuscript: Quran vs. Hadith**
The earliest extant carbon-dated manuscript of the Quran (such as the Sanaa manuscript, Topkapi) is approximately 200 years after the Prophet. In contrast, the earliest complete manuscript of Sahih Bukhari dates to about 450 years after the Prophet, underscoring the differences in the preservation timelines of the two texts.
19. **Earliest carbon dated extant manuscript**
For Quran it is to the time of prophet (e.g. Birmingham Quran).
For hadith it is a tiny fragment of Malik's Muwatta (approx 200 years after prophet).
Some claim Sahifa Hammam ibn Munabbih is the earliest but this is a reproduction of the original and there is no carbon dating.
20. **Question over transmitter of Sahih Bukhari's Primary Copy**
The version of Sahih Bukhari that forms the basis of the widely accepted text today is transmitted through his student, Muhammad ibn Yusuf al-Firabri. However, no contemporaries of Firabri are known to have explicitly vouched for his reliability—e.g. no one is recorded as describing him as thiqa (trustworthy). There is perhaps not even a record of any peer making a positive statement about him. It seems he is not well known by his immediate peers.
#####
To end here are some interesting (albeit ultimately unverifiable) reports about hadith from the first 3 Caliphs Abu Bakr, Umar and Uthman:
In Tadhkirat al-huffaz, al-Dhahabi cites:
Daughter of Abu Bakr, ʿAʾishah is reported to have said:
"My father collected Hadiths of the Messenger of Allah (peace be upon him), and it was five hundred Hadiths. One night, he was very uneasy, tossing and turning much. I also felt uneasy because of this, so I said, 'Are you turning because of an ailment, or have you heard news that upset you?' In the morning, he said, 'O daughter, bring the Hadiths.' I brought them, and he asked for a flame and burnt them. I said, 'Why did you burn them?' He said, 'I feared lest I die while they are with me containing narrations that I heard from a man whom I trusted and whose narrations I considered to be correct while in reality they are not; then I would have quoted incorrect narrations from him.'"
Abu Bakr addressed the people after the Prophet Muhammad's (peace be upon him) passing, expressing concern over disagreements arising from narrations of the Prophet's sayings. He advised:
"You relate from the Messenger of Allah, upon whom be God's peace and benediction, traditions regarding which you disagree, and consequently severer controversy shall occur among people. So relate nothing from the Messenger of Allah, and when asked by anyone, you can say: The Book of Allah is the arbitrator between us. Deem lawful what it considers lawful, and deem unlawful what is considered unlawful in it."
Reports from Shu'bah, from Sa'id ibn Ibrahim from his father, that Umar detained Ibn Mas'ud, Abu al-Darda', and Abu Mas'ud al-Ansari, saying to them "You have narrated hadith abundantly from the Messenger of Allah. It is reported that he had detained them in Medina, but they were set free by Uthman.
Abu Hurayrah, asked by Abu Salamah whether he used to narrate traditions as freely in Umar's time as he was then doing, replied "No, for if I had tried, 'Umar would have had me whipped."
Narrated 'Ubaidullah bin `Abdullah: Ibn `Abbas said, "When the ailment of the Prophet became worse, he said, 'Bring for me (writing) paper and I will write for you a statement after which you will not go astray.' But `Umar said, 'The Prophet is seriously ill, and we have got Allah's Book with us, and that is sufficient for us.'
Sahih al-Bukhari 114
"the hadith multiplied during the time of Umar then he called on the people to bring them to him, and when they brought them to him, he ordered them to be burned." Afterward he said "a Mishna like the Mishna of the People of the Book" (mathna'a ka mathna'at ahl al-Kitab)
Ref: Ibn Saad's "Tabaqat" (Volume 5)
Umar would say to his governors: "Be exclusively devoted to the Qur'an, and diminish the annotations of Muhammad, and I am your partner."
Ref: The History of al-Tabari [reference]
Ibn Sa'd, and Ibn Asakir reports from Mahmud ibn Labid that he said: I heard Uthman ibn Affan addressing people from over the pulpit: It is unlawful for everyone to narrate any hadith he never heard of during the time of Abu Bakr and that of Umar. Verily that which made me abstain from narrating from the Messenger of Allah was not to be among the most conscious of his Companions, but I heard him declaring: "Whoever ascribing to me something I never said, he shall verily occupy his (destined) abode in Fire."
Ref: "Hadith Literature, Its Origin, Development & Special Features" by Muhammad Zubayr Siddiqi, p23
Background:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Hadith_in_Quran.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_True_Sunnah_of_Messenger_Naveed.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Rethinking_Tradition_Modern_Islamic_Thought.htm
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/Quran_clear_complete_detailed_explained.htm
References:
http://islam-and-muslims.com/islamic-books-online.html
THE SAHIFAH OF HAMMAM IBN MUNABBIH
BukhariGate by Mufti Abu Layth
Quran and hadith manuscripts
QuranTalk blog
chatGPT.com
More articles:
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/
#16
Discussions / Re: Peace between people
Last post by fireheart47 - May 01, 2025, 01:24:47 AMDear QM Forum,
Here is the simple message:
Allah is time.
Allah is The Force.
Allah gave us life, Allah will bring us death.
Allah created it once, we have faith Allah will create it again.
Fear Allah, worship Allah, give thanks to Allah.
Do the will of Allah, which is to make peace. Protect human life, enemy or friend.
Study, learn. Life is diverse (ex: plants, animals, etc....).
This life is a test. Persevere.
May Allah give us strength and wisdom to feel thankful.
May Allah help us follow the Golden Rule.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Here is the simple message:
Allah is time.
Allah is The Force.
Allah gave us life, Allah will bring us death.
Allah created it once, we have faith Allah will create it again.
Fear Allah, worship Allah, give thanks to Allah.
Do the will of Allah, which is to make peace. Protect human life, enemy or friend.
Study, learn. Life is diverse (ex: plants, animals, etc....).
This life is a test. Persevere.
May Allah give us strength and wisdom to feel thankful.
May Allah help us follow the Golden Rule.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
#17
General Discussions / Re: Can you please create a Di...
Last post by Wakas - April 27, 2025, 05:11:46 PMThere are lots of facebook groups and quite a few discord groups also.
e.g.
https://discord.gg/submission
e.g.
https://discord.gg/submission
#18
General Discussions / Re: Can you please create a Di...
Last post by Sabir Mahmud - April 26, 2025, 10:55:45 AMAssalamu Alaikum everyone again,
I understand our brother Joseph Islam is already engaged in multiple platforms. And he has already done as much as he could.
My brothers and sisters, now I myself has decided to create a discord server for the Quran only people. I would invite all of you to join our Quran Alone Community on discord. I hope you guys will like it.
Join Link:
https://discord.gg/GppDmxPdMp
I understand our brother Joseph Islam is already engaged in multiple platforms. And he has already done as much as he could.
My brothers and sisters, now I myself has decided to create a discord server for the Quran only people. I would invite all of you to join our Quran Alone Community on discord. I hope you guys will like it.
Join Link:
https://discord.gg/GppDmxPdMp
#19
Discussions / Re: Peace between people
Last post by fireheart47 - April 19, 2025, 11:04:13 PMDear QM Forum,
I've been hesitant to share some observations about the scriptures. However, I think it is a noble duty to be open and honest.
Allah
From my perspective, the TaNaKh, the Bible, and the Qur'an, all have unique features, which contribute to an awareness of Allah.
Each book has a unique contribution, which is why I believe in the Qur'an.
Thanks to an Israeli in Tel Aviv, I learned that the word אל in Biblical Hebrew can mean "to" or "towards". This person described to me how it is related to the idea of movement.
While reading the Bible and searching online, I learned that אל appears in many forms, and can be transliterated into English in many ways. For example, I've found instances of אל, אלה, אלוה, אלהים. Just like how in Arabic there are different ways to write it: اله، الله.
In English, it is transliterated as El, Elohim, or Allah.
I believe the sound of this word and name, Allah, is much older than the written languages. Therefore, it has been written many different ways by descendants of Abraham and believers.
Thanks to a video on YouTube about the Qur'an ( https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=4oJIrgZeDxY or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oJIrgZeDxY ), I deduced that the idea expressed in the name, Allah, is related to movement and time.
Instead of worshiping celestial objects, Abraham and his followers rationally and logically worshiped the force which moved the celestial objects. A hidden force, which cannot be accurately nor rationally depicted with symbols or statues.
Today we have many religious symbols, because that's how we communicate their differences and organize them as groups. Many Jewish people use Star of David symbol, many Christian use Cross symbol, and many Muslims use Moon symbol. It is easy to criticize. Yet, we should show mercy. There are also Jewish people who do not use that symbol, Christians like Jehovah's Witnesses don't use cross, and many mosques don't have moons. Symbols can contribute to identification and persecution. In the past, many Christians in Europe used the Pentagram as a religious symbol.
This supports the sayings I've heard, where Allah is described as time.
For other reasons, like the use of א and ל , I also believe that the word EL and Allah, means The Force. Because these letters imply strength (mature horned animal) and direction (shepherd's staff), as described by website Hebrew4Christians ( https://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/aleph-bet.html ). Also, because the word EL can be used in other situations, like the word Elon, which means oak, and oak wood is very strong. Others translate Elohim as "the mighty ones". There is also a Valley of Elah in Israel.
Unlike polytheistic worldviews, where people worship specific forces of nature, like the sun or water, the beliefs of the Israelites discoverable in the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an are holistic. Scholars of Ancient Egypt like Dr. Asa Hillard say that Ancient Egypt tried to promote a holistic worldview, yet over thousands of years, they lost this knowledge ( https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=9xkjsq4u-LY ). Even in the Bible, the scriptures speak of Israelites who lost their knowledge and became misguided through sacrifices, polytheism, and traditions of their ancestors, instead of promoting personal conduct, the power of words, the unity of the world and its source, the holiness of human life, mercy, peace, and so much more.
However, one contradiction has caught my attention. Many believers, and even the books, place great emphasis on Satan, which I believe is associating powers with Allah. Because Allah has the power. Allah is the controller.
In the Torah/the Pentateuch/the first five books of Moses, the word "satan" does not seem to appear as a distinct entity. Instead it appears as a verb (Book of Numbers 22:22), which means "to oppose", similar to the Greek word, where "devil" comes from. This is similar to function of Set in the Ancient Egyptian allegory. Notice how many words in Hebrew and Arabic have -N suffix (ex: solom-on, muslim-un, amin-un, sat-an). In the Ancient Egyptian allegory, Set is defeated by Horus, which I believe is our observation, and describes how Egyptians learned to survive on the Nile River. However, in the Book of Job it does appear as a distinct entity, separate from God.
My observation is that in the ancient Israelite culture, God is The Force, time, movement, strength, the reason for all existence, source, active, and hidden. It is the forces that create and the forces that oppose. Logically, there is more creation than opposition, because otherwise the universe would not exist. The universe exists, life exists, we exist, and we can be blessed, because the good forces are greater than the oppositional forces.
I believe the Israelites used the name YHWH ( https://www.thetorah.com/article/yhwh-the-original-arabic-meaning-of-the-name ) to describe the quality of Allah, which is great and terrifying, because it is responsible for the destruction and for creation. I believe this is why people are told to fear God. I believe YHWH is the nature of Allah, and to become destroyers of life is to break the law of Allah.
I believe ar-rahman ar-raheem are two important attributes of Allah, which guide our conduct and how we oppose others. I believe it is also the nature of Allah, and is revealed by how Allah guides people.
I believe the word Amen is also from Egypt, and describes something hidden, invisible, and faith, as described by Ashwar Kwesi in his lecture ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MeeAKk_9A ). I believe the scribes used this word in Greek, in the Book of Revelations 3:14, for the same reason as Wulfila used the word Gudan in Gothic and why English uses the word, God.
Wars and political power have shaped our world, yet the words of the books and their powerful ideas have been preserved miraculously. I believe all the religious books have been changed, yet they still contain truth. It is a truth about relationships, wisdom, ancient people, ancestors, and the source of many written languages.
These religions stem from observations about our world. Logical, rational observations. The word "science" means "knowledge" in Latin. It is an ideal, which many people seek. The Scientific Method is a method to discover irrefutable knowledge. In the past, many people who valued truth and knowledge have been denied, opposed, and their holy lives destroyed, because of how people interpreted these holy books. Books with knowledge, yet a different type of knowledge. Today, many people value what they call "science", and ignore truth and knowledge about our world. Many ignore or deny simple truths, when they come from people who are not on TV or in science magazines, like how precious and unique human life is in this deadly universe, or how words are important.
I believe that, when people fear evil forces which are lesser than Allah, they fear miracles and they fear everything that is different. Some of the religious authorities in the Bible feared Jesus and mocked him, because they thought he was possessed (Gospel of Matthew Chapter 12).
May Allah guide us. May we retain our faith.
Please forgive me if I have encroached excessively upon you all. May Allah give you many times more knowledge and guidance as I can type. May Allah protect and sustain us.
Peace,
Fireheart47
I've been hesitant to share some observations about the scriptures. However, I think it is a noble duty to be open and honest.
Allah
From my perspective, the TaNaKh, the Bible, and the Qur'an, all have unique features, which contribute to an awareness of Allah.
Each book has a unique contribution, which is why I believe in the Qur'an.
Thanks to an Israeli in Tel Aviv, I learned that the word אל in Biblical Hebrew can mean "to" or "towards". This person described to me how it is related to the idea of movement.
While reading the Bible and searching online, I learned that אל appears in many forms, and can be transliterated into English in many ways. For example, I've found instances of אל, אלה, אלוה, אלהים. Just like how in Arabic there are different ways to write it: اله، الله.
In English, it is transliterated as El, Elohim, or Allah.
I believe the sound of this word and name, Allah, is much older than the written languages. Therefore, it has been written many different ways by descendants of Abraham and believers.
Thanks to a video on YouTube about the Qur'an ( https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=4oJIrgZeDxY or https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4oJIrgZeDxY ), I deduced that the idea expressed in the name, Allah, is related to movement and time.
Instead of worshiping celestial objects, Abraham and his followers rationally and logically worshiped the force which moved the celestial objects. A hidden force, which cannot be accurately nor rationally depicted with symbols or statues.
Today we have many religious symbols, because that's how we communicate their differences and organize them as groups. Many Jewish people use Star of David symbol, many Christian use Cross symbol, and many Muslims use Moon symbol. It is easy to criticize. Yet, we should show mercy. There are also Jewish people who do not use that symbol, Christians like Jehovah's Witnesses don't use cross, and many mosques don't have moons. Symbols can contribute to identification and persecution. In the past, many Christians in Europe used the Pentagram as a religious symbol.
This supports the sayings I've heard, where Allah is described as time.
For other reasons, like the use of א and ל , I also believe that the word EL and Allah, means The Force. Because these letters imply strength (mature horned animal) and direction (shepherd's staff), as described by website Hebrew4Christians ( https://hebrew4christians.com/Grammar/Unit_One/Aleph-Bet/aleph-bet.html ). Also, because the word EL can be used in other situations, like the word Elon, which means oak, and oak wood is very strong. Others translate Elohim as "the mighty ones". There is also a Valley of Elah in Israel.
Unlike polytheistic worldviews, where people worship specific forces of nature, like the sun or water, the beliefs of the Israelites discoverable in the Torah, Bible, and Qur'an are holistic. Scholars of Ancient Egypt like Dr. Asa Hillard say that Ancient Egypt tried to promote a holistic worldview, yet over thousands of years, they lost this knowledge ( https://inv.nadeko.net/watch?v=9xkjsq4u-LY ). Even in the Bible, the scriptures speak of Israelites who lost their knowledge and became misguided through sacrifices, polytheism, and traditions of their ancestors, instead of promoting personal conduct, the power of words, the unity of the world and its source, the holiness of human life, mercy, peace, and so much more.
However, one contradiction has caught my attention. Many believers, and even the books, place great emphasis on Satan, which I believe is associating powers with Allah. Because Allah has the power. Allah is the controller.
In the Torah/the Pentateuch/the first five books of Moses, the word "satan" does not seem to appear as a distinct entity. Instead it appears as a verb (Book of Numbers 22:22), which means "to oppose", similar to the Greek word, where "devil" comes from. This is similar to function of Set in the Ancient Egyptian allegory. Notice how many words in Hebrew and Arabic have -N suffix (ex: solom-on, muslim-un, amin-un, sat-an). In the Ancient Egyptian allegory, Set is defeated by Horus, which I believe is our observation, and describes how Egyptians learned to survive on the Nile River. However, in the Book of Job it does appear as a distinct entity, separate from God.
My observation is that in the ancient Israelite culture, God is The Force, time, movement, strength, the reason for all existence, source, active, and hidden. It is the forces that create and the forces that oppose. Logically, there is more creation than opposition, because otherwise the universe would not exist. The universe exists, life exists, we exist, and we can be blessed, because the good forces are greater than the oppositional forces.
I believe the Israelites used the name YHWH ( https://www.thetorah.com/article/yhwh-the-original-arabic-meaning-of-the-name ) to describe the quality of Allah, which is great and terrifying, because it is responsible for the destruction and for creation. I believe this is why people are told to fear God. I believe YHWH is the nature of Allah, and to become destroyers of life is to break the law of Allah.
I believe ar-rahman ar-raheem are two important attributes of Allah, which guide our conduct and how we oppose others. I believe it is also the nature of Allah, and is revealed by how Allah guides people.
I believe the word Amen is also from Egypt, and describes something hidden, invisible, and faith, as described by Ashwar Kwesi in his lecture ( https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=c6MeeAKk_9A ). I believe the scribes used this word in Greek, in the Book of Revelations 3:14, for the same reason as Wulfila used the word Gudan in Gothic and why English uses the word, God.
Wars and political power have shaped our world, yet the words of the books and their powerful ideas have been preserved miraculously. I believe all the religious books have been changed, yet they still contain truth. It is a truth about relationships, wisdom, ancient people, ancestors, and the source of many written languages.
These religions stem from observations about our world. Logical, rational observations. The word "science" means "knowledge" in Latin. It is an ideal, which many people seek. The Scientific Method is a method to discover irrefutable knowledge. In the past, many people who valued truth and knowledge have been denied, opposed, and their holy lives destroyed, because of how people interpreted these holy books. Books with knowledge, yet a different type of knowledge. Today, many people value what they call "science", and ignore truth and knowledge about our world. Many ignore or deny simple truths, when they come from people who are not on TV or in science magazines, like how precious and unique human life is in this deadly universe, or how words are important.
I believe that, when people fear evil forces which are lesser than Allah, they fear miracles and they fear everything that is different. Some of the religious authorities in the Bible feared Jesus and mocked him, because they thought he was possessed (Gospel of Matthew Chapter 12).
May Allah guide us. May we retain our faith.
Please forgive me if I have encroached excessively upon you all. May Allah give you many times more knowledge and guidance as I can type. May Allah protect and sustain us.
Peace,
Fireheart47
#20
Discussions / Re: anti hadith resource idea
Last post by fireheart47 - April 19, 2025, 09:33:25 PMDear Wakas,
Thank you for composing this list. It is useful in many ways.
For example, item number 9 reminds me of a story from where we live in the USA. Native Americans said the Earth rests on a turtle's back. We were taught about this story as kids. Later as an adult, I wondered if Native Americans observed earthquakes and gradual changes in the landscape, which they described allegorically and symbolically as "a turtle's back", because it moves slowly. Perhaps there is another reason. Your #9 inspired me to search "geysers in Saudi Arabia" on DuckDuckGO, where I learned about "desert blowholes".
Of course, the core ideas of Islam are simple and true. Your list confirms what Joseph Islam and many others have observed.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47
Thank you for composing this list. It is useful in many ways.
For example, item number 9 reminds me of a story from where we live in the USA. Native Americans said the Earth rests on a turtle's back. We were taught about this story as kids. Later as an adult, I wondered if Native Americans observed earthquakes and gradual changes in the landscape, which they described allegorically and symbolically as "a turtle's back", because it moves slowly. Perhaps there is another reason. Your #9 inspired me to search "geysers in Saudi Arabia" on DuckDuckGO, where I learned about "desert blowholes".
Of course, the core ideas of Islam are simple and true. Your list confirms what Joseph Islam and many others have observed.
Sincerely,
Fireheart47