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#11
General Discussions / Re: God Testing Humanity: Crys...
Last post by relearning - May 11, 2026, 07:25:28 PMwhere did i get my criteria? simple. i got them from the basic demands of justice and from the Quran itself. the Quran claims to be clear, universal and for all humanity. i am not bringing external standards to judge it. i am holding it to its own promises. that is not subjective that is the most fair test possible.
on your second and third questions, the fact that no book on earth meets these criteria is not a defense of the Quran. it is an indictment of all claimants equally. if God exists and wants to communicate with humanity, perfect clarity is not beyond divine capability. the absence of such a book doesnt mean the standard is wrong. it means no text has yet met it. including this one. and if you want me to imagine what such a book would look like, here is a start. it would not require a specific language to understand. it would not need centuries of scholarly infrastructure to become functional. it would not produce hundreds of warring interpretations among sincere readers. it would not ask you to believe before you can verify. every human being regardless of background would recognize its divine origin independently without being told first by their parents or culture.
on your fourth question, yes the Quran claims to be clear (12:1, 54:17), a guidance for all people (2:185), sent in the language of the people for fairness (14:4), and something that can be understood by anyone who reflects (54:17). i know what the Quran says. that is precisely why i am asking whether it delivers on those claims in practice. studying a text deeply enough to know its own promises and then asking whether those promises are kept is not ignorance. it is the most honest form of engagement possible.
the question was never how much i studied it. the question is whether it does what it says it does.
and one last thing. the Quran itself claims to include everyone in its message. the shepherd the traveler the orphan the ordinary person going about their life. that is what the text says about itself. but people like you in practice want to limit access to only those who devoted years of their life to classical Arabic and scholarly methodology. do you not see the problem? you are contradicting the very claims of the book you are defending. if the Quran says it is for everyone but your methodology makes it accessible to almost nobody then one of these two things is not true. either the claim of universality is sincere and your methodology betrays it or your methodology is necessary and the claim of universality was never realistic. you cannot have both.
on your second and third questions, the fact that no book on earth meets these criteria is not a defense of the Quran. it is an indictment of all claimants equally. if God exists and wants to communicate with humanity, perfect clarity is not beyond divine capability. the absence of such a book doesnt mean the standard is wrong. it means no text has yet met it. including this one. and if you want me to imagine what such a book would look like, here is a start. it would not require a specific language to understand. it would not need centuries of scholarly infrastructure to become functional. it would not produce hundreds of warring interpretations among sincere readers. it would not ask you to believe before you can verify. every human being regardless of background would recognize its divine origin independently without being told first by their parents or culture.
on your fourth question, yes the Quran claims to be clear (12:1, 54:17), a guidance for all people (2:185), sent in the language of the people for fairness (14:4), and something that can be understood by anyone who reflects (54:17). i know what the Quran says. that is precisely why i am asking whether it delivers on those claims in practice. studying a text deeply enough to know its own promises and then asking whether those promises are kept is not ignorance. it is the most honest form of engagement possible.
the question was never how much i studied it. the question is whether it does what it says it does.
and one last thing. the Quran itself claims to include everyone in its message. the shepherd the traveler the orphan the ordinary person going about their life. that is what the text says about itself. but people like you in practice want to limit access to only those who devoted years of their life to classical Arabic and scholarly methodology. do you not see the problem? you are contradicting the very claims of the book you are defending. if the Quran says it is for everyone but your methodology makes it accessible to almost nobody then one of these two things is not true. either the claim of universality is sincere and your methodology betrays it or your methodology is necessary and the claim of universality was never realistic. you cannot have both.
#12
General Discussions / Re: one way The Quran exposes ...
Last post by relearning - May 11, 2026, 07:22:22 PMwhether i used an AI or not is irrelevant. a valid argument doesnt become invalid based on who or what helped articulate it. that is not engagement that is deflection. and deflection is a luxury no sincere person can afford when the stakes being claimed are eternal.
on your specific points:
first you say even a few verses were enough for early receivers to reach guidance. i accept that. but then why 6000 verses now? if a handful was sufficient for salvation then the rest becomes extra burden extra complexity extra room for error and divergence. and those early receivers were ordinary villagers not scholars. if what was enough for them is not enough for modern humans that raises its own question about what exactly has changed and why the bar keeps rising.
second the fitrah argument is genuinely interesting and i respect it. but the Quran itself says it sent messages in the language of each people precisely because anything else would be unjust (14:4). if language accessibility is a divine principle important enough to be stated explicitly why does correctly understanding this final universal message require years of devotion to a foreign language and culture? the compass is there but you are asking people to learn a foreign cartography to read it.
third on convergence you are counting masses following scholars as convergence. that is not intellectual convergence that is institutional gravity. look instead at how many scholars oppose each other starting from the earliest Muslims themselves. that disagreement has never stopped. billions following the same label tells us nothing about whether the map is actually clear.
fourth the argument addressed the video's own claim directly. if the video overstated that is the video's problem. calling it a strawman without addressing what the video actually said is itself an evasion.
fifth your own methodology page requires knowledge of Arabic grammar cross referencing roots across the entire text consulting multiple scholarly sources knowledge of archaeology biology physics history philosophy logical training years of patience and a God conscious state of mind as a prerequisite for understanding. for the farmer in Indonesia the teenager in Brazil the factory worker in Nigeria people this book claims to address this is not a door. it is a wall described in careful detail. and verse 41:44 offers belief as the solution to the language barrier. but you cannot ask someone to believe before they can understand. that is not clarity. that is a prerequisite disguised as a solution.
sixth if the moral filter only works for people who already have pure hearts and good disposition then it is not guiding diverse humanity it is confirming the already good. expecting a unified product of goodwill from the enormously diverse range of human backgrounds traumas cultures and conditions is not a divine standard. it is an impossible one that conveniently places all failure on the human.
seventh the justice inversion remains unanswered. placing the entire burden of correct understanding on the reader while giving every benefit of doubt to the text is itself a methodological flaw. and notably the Quran itself warns against blindly following ancestors and inherited frameworks. applying that principle only outward never inward toward the text itself is an inconsistency worth sitting with honestly. and i will reply on other post as well
on your specific points:
first you say even a few verses were enough for early receivers to reach guidance. i accept that. but then why 6000 verses now? if a handful was sufficient for salvation then the rest becomes extra burden extra complexity extra room for error and divergence. and those early receivers were ordinary villagers not scholars. if what was enough for them is not enough for modern humans that raises its own question about what exactly has changed and why the bar keeps rising.
second the fitrah argument is genuinely interesting and i respect it. but the Quran itself says it sent messages in the language of each people precisely because anything else would be unjust (14:4). if language accessibility is a divine principle important enough to be stated explicitly why does correctly understanding this final universal message require years of devotion to a foreign language and culture? the compass is there but you are asking people to learn a foreign cartography to read it.
third on convergence you are counting masses following scholars as convergence. that is not intellectual convergence that is institutional gravity. look instead at how many scholars oppose each other starting from the earliest Muslims themselves. that disagreement has never stopped. billions following the same label tells us nothing about whether the map is actually clear.
fourth the argument addressed the video's own claim directly. if the video overstated that is the video's problem. calling it a strawman without addressing what the video actually said is itself an evasion.
fifth your own methodology page requires knowledge of Arabic grammar cross referencing roots across the entire text consulting multiple scholarly sources knowledge of archaeology biology physics history philosophy logical training years of patience and a God conscious state of mind as a prerequisite for understanding. for the farmer in Indonesia the teenager in Brazil the factory worker in Nigeria people this book claims to address this is not a door. it is a wall described in careful detail. and verse 41:44 offers belief as the solution to the language barrier. but you cannot ask someone to believe before they can understand. that is not clarity. that is a prerequisite disguised as a solution.
sixth if the moral filter only works for people who already have pure hearts and good disposition then it is not guiding diverse humanity it is confirming the already good. expecting a unified product of goodwill from the enormously diverse range of human backgrounds traumas cultures and conditions is not a divine standard. it is an impossible one that conveniently places all failure on the human.
seventh the justice inversion remains unanswered. placing the entire burden of correct understanding on the reader while giving every benefit of doubt to the text is itself a methodological flaw. and notably the Quran itself warns against blindly following ancestors and inherited frameworks. applying that principle only outward never inward toward the text itself is an inconsistency worth sitting with honestly. and i will reply on other post as well
#13
General Discussions / Re: one way The Quran exposes ...
Last post by Wakas - May 09, 2026, 03:53:31 PMDid you chatGPT that?
Remember chatGPT is only as good as what is fed into it, and for deep Quran analysis its hit and miss from my experience.
Have you actually read The Quran?
1) it works for the recipients at the time also. They would have used whatever was revealed to them e.g. if they had 2 chapters, then those 2 chapters would have to be understood holistically.
2) see 30:30. It is about potentiality. It can work for for everyone. Many bury it.
3) there is convergence on lots. Yes, billions of people will have, shock horror, different views on things. Proves nothing.
4) It doesn't say it is its only divine feature. Strawman.
5) Nope. Gives us a robust methodology:
https://www.quranvshadith.com/study-method.html
6) see (2) above. A person can be "good" but they are unlikely to be able to naturally incline to all that is good, e.g. from individual to collective societal rules etc. This is where Quran steps up. Natural inclination to good is awesome but it can only take you so far.
And as for that thread you linked to. I replied in it.
5)
Remember chatGPT is only as good as what is fed into it, and for deep Quran analysis its hit and miss from my experience.
Have you actually read The Quran?
1) it works for the recipients at the time also. They would have used whatever was revealed to them e.g. if they had 2 chapters, then those 2 chapters would have to be understood holistically.
2) see 30:30. It is about potentiality. It can work for for everyone. Many bury it.
3) there is convergence on lots. Yes, billions of people will have, shock horror, different views on things. Proves nothing.
4) It doesn't say it is its only divine feature. Strawman.
5) Nope. Gives us a robust methodology:
https://www.quranvshadith.com/study-method.html
6) see (2) above. A person can be "good" but they are unlikely to be able to naturally incline to all that is good, e.g. from individual to collective societal rules etc. This is where Quran steps up. Natural inclination to good is awesome but it can only take you so far.
And as for that thread you linked to. I replied in it.
5)
#14
General Discussions / Re: one way The Quran exposes ...
Last post by relearning - May 08, 2026, 05:12:20 PM #15
General Discussions / Re: one way The Quran exposes ...
Last post by relearning - May 08, 2026, 05:09:33 PMThe idea that the Quran acts as a "moral filter" revealing the reader's own disposition is an interesting one, but it raises several serious problems:
1. The Anachronism Problem
The "read the whole text holistically" method requires a complete, compiled book in the reader's hands. The first receivers had fragments, delivered over 23 years, orally, through a living prophet they could directly question. The holistic interpretive framework being proposed here is a medieval scholarly invention — it simply was not available to the people the revelation was actually addressed to. You cannot retroactively make it the correct reading method without admitting the text needed centuries of human infrastructure to become functional.
2. The Moral Filter Paradox
If the book only works correctly for people who already bring a good moral compass to it, it is preaching to the converted. Those who most need moral reformation will extract justifications for cruelty from the same text — and this framework calls that their fault, not the text's. A divine guide that only successfully guides the already-guided is not really guidance. It is confirmation.
3. The Convergence Failure
If the moral filter were genuinely working — separating sincere from insincere readers and guiding the sincere toward correct understanding — you would expect some convergence among good-faith readers over 1400 years. Instead we have hundreds of competing schools, sects, and interpretations, many held by people of undeniable sincerity and deep scholarly dedication. The filter has not filtered.
4. The Universality Problem
The video's own closing point — that any complex text reveals the reader's disposition — applies equally to Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, or any sufficiently rich human text. If that is the Quran's distinguishing divine feature, it is neither distinguishing nor divine. It is simply what complex texts do.
5. The Justice Inversion
Placing the entire interpretive burden on the reader's moral quality quietly absolves the text of all responsibility for how it has been used throughout history. Centuries of slavery, oppression, and violence justified by this text become solely the moral failure of readers — never evidence of textual ambiguity or inadequacy. That is a remarkably convenient arrangement for the text, and a remarkably harsh one for humanity.
6. The Circular Premise
The framework assumes the receiver must already be a morally inclined person for the book to work as intended. But this raises a question that the argument cannot answer cleanly: is this a divine text that guides people — bad, average, and good alike? Or does it only work for people who are already good? And if the latter, does guidance make any real difference at all? People were already going to be who they are. The book then becomes not a transformer of human character but a mirror of it — which returns us to the question of what exactly is divine about that function.
1. The Anachronism Problem
The "read the whole text holistically" method requires a complete, compiled book in the reader's hands. The first receivers had fragments, delivered over 23 years, orally, through a living prophet they could directly question. The holistic interpretive framework being proposed here is a medieval scholarly invention — it simply was not available to the people the revelation was actually addressed to. You cannot retroactively make it the correct reading method without admitting the text needed centuries of human infrastructure to become functional.
2. The Moral Filter Paradox
If the book only works correctly for people who already bring a good moral compass to it, it is preaching to the converted. Those who most need moral reformation will extract justifications for cruelty from the same text — and this framework calls that their fault, not the text's. A divine guide that only successfully guides the already-guided is not really guidance. It is confirmation.
3. The Convergence Failure
If the moral filter were genuinely working — separating sincere from insincere readers and guiding the sincere toward correct understanding — you would expect some convergence among good-faith readers over 1400 years. Instead we have hundreds of competing schools, sects, and interpretations, many held by people of undeniable sincerity and deep scholarly dedication. The filter has not filtered.
4. The Universality Problem
The video's own closing point — that any complex text reveals the reader's disposition — applies equally to Shakespeare, Dostoevsky, or any sufficiently rich human text. If that is the Quran's distinguishing divine feature, it is neither distinguishing nor divine. It is simply what complex texts do.
5. The Justice Inversion
Placing the entire interpretive burden on the reader's moral quality quietly absolves the text of all responsibility for how it has been used throughout history. Centuries of slavery, oppression, and violence justified by this text become solely the moral failure of readers — never evidence of textual ambiguity or inadequacy. That is a remarkably convenient arrangement for the text, and a remarkably harsh one for humanity.
6. The Circular Premise
The framework assumes the receiver must already be a morally inclined person for the book to work as intended. But this raises a question that the argument cannot answer cleanly: is this a divine text that guides people — bad, average, and good alike? Or does it only work for people who are already good? And if the latter, does guidance make any real difference at all? People were already going to be who they are. The book then becomes not a transformer of human character but a mirror of it — which returns us to the question of what exactly is divine about that function.
#16
General Discussions / one way The Quran exposes who ...
Last post by Wakas - May 08, 2026, 04:31:56 AMA simple yet powerful concept:
#17
Islamic Duties / Re: When the Qur’an commands H...
Last post by Wakas - May 05, 2026, 05:32:46 AMit is self obligated, see 2:197
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
You are the one who determines it, on topic video e.g.
https://youtu.be/2dJ2dw10UEg
https://mypercept.co.uk/articles/meaning-hajj-Quran.html
You are the one who determines it, on topic video e.g.
https://youtu.be/2dJ2dw10UEg
#18
Islamic Duties / When the Qur’an commands Hajj ...
Last post by shahrukhkhan - May 01, 2026, 11:14:51 PMThe Qur'an makes Hajj obligatory only for those who are able to undertake it.
But in today's context, "ability" can mean different things: financial cost, physical health, safety, visa restrictions, or even responsibilities at home.
How should we understand this condition properly?
Is it just financial and physical ability, or does it include modern-day factors as well?
But in today's context, "ability" can mean different things: financial cost, physical health, safety, visa restrictions, or even responsibilities at home.
How should we understand this condition properly?
Is it just financial and physical ability, or does it include modern-day factors as well?
#19
General Discussions / DEAR LORD....
Last post by relearning - April 30, 2026, 06:22:30 PMDear Lord,
Allow me to finish this letter that seems to have been left incomplete.
How are you? I hope you are fine. If you ask about humanity — of course you already know, you don't need me to tell you, but I want to anyway — well, it has been quite a long time since you last sent a book and a prophet. One thousand four hundred years, to be precise. And in that gap, humanity has made enormous progress. We are more civilized, more modern. Slavery has been abolished — I know that was something you wanted, it is there between the lines, we just needed a few millennia to figure it out.
We have also developed entirely new ways of communication, far more advanced than a single book delivered by a single messenger. The internet age, my Lord! With these new tools, it is now possible — quite literally — to reach every human being you created. Every single one. I thought you should know.
I also suspect it bothers you — and I say this with the greatest respect — that so many people, in every age, have made careers out of interpreting your words. Building fame, authority, and comfortable incomes by declaring this is the correct reading, this is what pleases you. And it must sadden you that your book, though perfectly clear perhaps to the first Arabic villagers you addressed, has since produced countless competing creeds, each fighting the others for your approval, each certain they alone have your ear.
So allow me to humbly offer a solution.
A Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter account, my Lord. Think about it. You could personalize your message to anyone you wish — and that is what you want, is it not? You love every creature uniquely. Why burden them all with one book when you could have the pleasure of private messaging each of them, whenever you wish, whenever they need you? This would surely increase the number of people finding their way to heaven, which I know is your preference.
And please, do not worry about hell sitting empty. You, as an all-powerful and endlessly compassionate God, could create a category of beings who genuinely enjoy it. Nothing is impossible for you, my Lord. It seems like a reasonable arrangement.
You happy. We happy. Satan sad. I cannot think of anything better than that.
Yours sincerely,
Your everlasting humble servant.
Allow me to finish this letter that seems to have been left incomplete.
How are you? I hope you are fine. If you ask about humanity — of course you already know, you don't need me to tell you, but I want to anyway — well, it has been quite a long time since you last sent a book and a prophet. One thousand four hundred years, to be precise. And in that gap, humanity has made enormous progress. We are more civilized, more modern. Slavery has been abolished — I know that was something you wanted, it is there between the lines, we just needed a few millennia to figure it out.
We have also developed entirely new ways of communication, far more advanced than a single book delivered by a single messenger. The internet age, my Lord! With these new tools, it is now possible — quite literally — to reach every human being you created. Every single one. I thought you should know.
I also suspect it bothers you — and I say this with the greatest respect — that so many people, in every age, have made careers out of interpreting your words. Building fame, authority, and comfortable incomes by declaring this is the correct reading, this is what pleases you. And it must sadden you that your book, though perfectly clear perhaps to the first Arabic villagers you addressed, has since produced countless competing creeds, each fighting the others for your approval, each certain they alone have your ear.
So allow me to humbly offer a solution.
A Facebook, Instagram, or Twitter account, my Lord. Think about it. You could personalize your message to anyone you wish — and that is what you want, is it not? You love every creature uniquely. Why burden them all with one book when you could have the pleasure of private messaging each of them, whenever you wish, whenever they need you? This would surely increase the number of people finding their way to heaven, which I know is your preference.
And please, do not worry about hell sitting empty. You, as an all-powerful and endlessly compassionate God, could create a category of beings who genuinely enjoy it. Nothing is impossible for you, my Lord. It seems like a reasonable arrangement.
You happy. We happy. Satan sad. I cannot think of anything better than that.
Yours sincerely,
Your everlasting humble servant.
#20
Posts on Facebook / Re: Quransmessage.com Website ...
Last post by fireheart47 - April 23, 2026, 10:30:58 AMWa-aleykum as-salam wa-rahmat-ullahi wa-barakatah Joseph,
Yes, I can connect to https://quransmessage.com and all its articles, from Wisconsin, USA.
Thank you for all your work. Your website is a miracle to me and such a beautiful contribution to humanity.
May God bless you for your good deeds.
Are you the admin for https://quranmessage.com or http://allahsquran.com ?
I love that website too, because of its simpler retro form and layout. The image-based text seems like a good protection against subtle changes, which I have found on https://islamicity.org/quran
However, the search function on allahsquran.com produces unexpected results. For example, if I query 'peace' on the search category 'All Chapters' it returns as a black screen. I learned now that if I wait long enough, it will show the results eventually.
May God protect and sustain you.
Peace and blessings be upon you,
Fireheart47
Yes, I can connect to https://quransmessage.com and all its articles, from Wisconsin, USA.
Thank you for all your work. Your website is a miracle to me and such a beautiful contribution to humanity.
May God bless you for your good deeds.
Are you the admin for https://quranmessage.com or http://allahsquran.com ?
I love that website too, because of its simpler retro form and layout. The image-based text seems like a good protection against subtle changes, which I have found on https://islamicity.org/quran
However, the search function on allahsquran.com produces unexpected results. For example, if I query 'peace' on the search category 'All Chapters' it returns as a black screen. I learned now that if I wait long enough, it will show the results eventually.
May God protect and sustain you.
Peace and blessings be upon you,
Fireheart47